1. #4081
    Pit Lord D Luniz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    The Coastal Plaguelands
    Posts
    2,334
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    Picture seems to show unarmed MPs in normal military body armor, not riot gear (beyond CBR masks in pouches).
    Not pictured was the use of tear gas, the low flying helicopter, the ATVs. But the guys in the picture got helmets and vests. Things denied for the Jan 5th-6th attempted coup.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    Which would have minimal effect on their ability to provide security. Neither group had any offensive means. Guys in nothing but shorts and sandals but armed with night sticks would have been a massive upgrade to either force. Better yet, both times they should have been armed with fixed bayonets.
    Tell that to all the officers with TBI
    "Law and Order", lots of places have had that, Russia, North Korea, Saddam's Iraq.
    Laws can be made to enforce order of cruelty and brutality.
    Equality and Justice, that is how you have peace and a society that benefits all.

  2. #4082
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Some of the things are standard, but not others. The dude is an officer, and knows his stuff. But, not being able to interact with law enforcement, including asking for assistance, that's not normal. The other issue was the refusal to allow body armor and helmets.

    I absolutely get not arming them with firearms, that is very common. But, the way it's worded means that they cannot do much of anything. By the wording, they cannot even detain a violent protestor, and hold them for arrest by actual law enforcement.

    And let's not forget, the Guard wasn't even used. They wanted to be, and DC, Maryland, and Virginia were trying to use them... but were denied, even under those limited orders.
    Oh, there were absolutely problems with how the NG was (and especially was not) utilized, I'm just not sure this letter in and of itself is the smoking gun some people seem to think it is.

  3. #4083
    Quote Originally Posted by DarkTZeratul View Post
    Oh, there were absolutely problems with how the NG was (and especially was not) utilized, I'm just not sure this letter in and of itself is the smoking gun some people seem to think it is.
    The smoking gun was the refusal to allow for them to be deployed in the first place.

    This just shows the absolute hamstringing of their usage. It turned them into traffic control, that's it.

  4. #4084
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    the other
    Posts
    58,334
    Just a reminder... Trump had unmarked vans snatching people off the street, during BLM protests.
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    No amount of belief makes something a fact. - James Randi

  5. #4085
    The Unstoppable Force Kellhound's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Bank of the Columbia
    Posts
    20,665
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    That's not true at all. Read the full list. They cannot actually interact with protesters, cannot seek assistance from any of the other government personnel who were there, and couldn't actually do any law enforcement whatsoever.

    They were ordered to be traffic control.

    They were completely hamstrung, and you know it. So, feel free to keep being ridiculous in the name of fascists, I expect nothing less from you.
    Not having offensive weapons and full riot gear is a massive constraint on effectiveness no matter how you look at it, and my comment was strictly based on equipment not orders. But I don't expect you to notice such things.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by D Luniz View Post
    Not pictured was the use of tear gas, the low flying helicopter, the ATVs. But the guys in the picture got helmets and vests. Things denied for the Jan 5th-6th attempted coup.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Tell that to all the officers with TBI
    Don't get me wrong, I believe all rioters should be dealt with via extreme force.
    Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.
    “Whoever said the pen is mightier than the sword obviously never encountered automatic weapons.”
    "His knowledge on that topic is only power point deep..." "Power corrupts and PowerPoint corrupts absolutely."
    "Who's the more foolish? The fool, or the fool who follows him?"

  6. #4086
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    Not having offensive weapons and full riot gear is a massive constraint on effectiveness no matter how you look at it, and my comment was strictly based on equipment not orders. But I don't expect you to notice such things.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Don't get me wrong, I believe all rioters should be dealt with via extreme force.
    It shows they were objectively more restricted than before... which is the point.

    Or, did you not notice that?

  7. #4087
    The Unstoppable Force Kellhound's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Bank of the Columbia
    Posts
    20,665
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    It shows they were objectively more restricted than before... which is the point.

    Or, did you not notice that?
    I noticed that I pointed out equipment and what it means to their effectiveness.

    There is also the question of the legality of using NG troops as law enforcement in DC under the current command structure (they are under the control of the military when mobilized for any reason).
    Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.
    “Whoever said the pen is mightier than the sword obviously never encountered automatic weapons.”
    "His knowledge on that topic is only power point deep..." "Power corrupts and PowerPoint corrupts absolutely."
    "Who's the more foolish? The fool, or the fool who follows him?"

  8. #4088
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    I noticed that I pointed out equipment and what it means to their effectiveness.

    There is also the question of the legality of using NG troops as law enforcement in DC under the current command structure (they are under the control of the military when mobilized for any reason).
    This isn't just about using them as "law enforcement. They weren't even allowed to do much of anything.

    They have been deployed numerous times in the past, to all sorts of locations. they have been called to quell riots, act as security, and disaster relief. But, as has been pointed out, they were more restricted than in the picture.

  9. #4089
    The Unstoppable Force Kellhound's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Bank of the Columbia
    Posts
    20,665
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    This isn't just about using them as "law enforcement. They weren't even allowed to do much of anything.

    They have been deployed numerous times in the past, to all sorts of locations. they have been called to quell riots, act as security, and disaster relief. But, as has been pointed out, they were more restricted than in the picture.
    The grey zone is the use of the NG in DC " for the purpose of executing the laws", as they are under the control of the federal government.
    Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.
    “Whoever said the pen is mightier than the sword obviously never encountered automatic weapons.”
    "His knowledge on that topic is only power point deep..." "Power corrupts and PowerPoint corrupts absolutely."
    "Who's the more foolish? The fool, or the fool who follows him?"

  10. #4090
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    The grey zone is the use of the NG in DC " for the purpose of executing the laws", as they are under the control of the federal government.
    yes, they are under the control of the federal government. DC has their own National Guard. They were hamstrung.

  11. #4091
    The Unstoppable Force Kellhound's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Bank of the Columbia
    Posts
    20,665
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    yes, they are under the control of the federal government. DC has their own National Guard. They were hamstrung.
    Posse Comitatus does not allow the us of NG troops under federal control to be used for the purpose of executing the law unless the Insurrection Act is evoked (and it has been 28 years since it last was).
    Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.
    “Whoever said the pen is mightier than the sword obviously never encountered automatic weapons.”
    "His knowledge on that topic is only power point deep..." "Power corrupts and PowerPoint corrupts absolutely."
    "Who's the more foolish? The fool, or the fool who follows him?"

  12. #4092
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    Posse Comitatus does not allow the us of NG troops under federal control to be used for the purpose of executing the law unless the Insurrection Act is evoked (and it has been 28 years since it last was).
    And as has been pointed out, they are objectively more restricted than they were... at the same location... just a few months ago.

    I have made no claims as to what you are talking about.

  13. #4093
    Legendary! Thekri's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    A highly disgruntled constituent of Lindsey Graham.
    Posts
    6,115
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    And as has been pointed out, they are objectively more restricted than they were... at the same location... just a few months ago.

    I have made no claims as to what you are talking about.
    Not sure where you got the idea they were more or less restricted then they were during last year. The actual actions of the NG in both cases were very simular. The major differences are 1) You didn't see the use of force memo last time, and 2) Last time they had a LOT of support by other federal agencies, where they had almost none this time.

    The first is not a big deal, the second absolutely is. As I mentioned in my earlier post on the topic, I am EXTREMELY concerned by the actions of numerous federal agencies during the Washington protests last year. Many of these agencies cannot even be identified, such as who was operating surveillance aircraft over the crowd, or who was providing the "Goon Squads" we saw in both DC and Portland. Other agencies we can identify, such as the National Park service, were operating WAY outside the scope of their authority, and tear gassing crowds. But I can't find any evidence that the National Guard itself was particularly misused in those cases (If you remember the iconic picture of them on the Washington Monument, they had no guns, no riot shields, and weren't advancing on protestors).

    As far as the memo itself, you seem to completely misunderstand what it is. It is a very standard use of force format, I dealt with similar documents hundreds of times. When it says "You can't do this thing without asking permission" that is exactly what it means. It doesn't mean you can't do it, it just means you have to ask the person assigned to approve such things. In Afghanistan we had mountains of these memos, restricting all sorts of things. "Don't use Aerial munitions within X distance of a structure", "Don't obstruct civilian traffic along roads", "Don't enter agricultural areas", but none of those were hard rules, each of them had a person you had to ask before you did something like that. They don't want Soldiers doing donuts in some poor farmers fields, but if one of my Platoons needed to go after a mortar emplacement or something, I was the one authorized to approve that. For something more serious, like Aerial Munitions near a residential structure, if we absolutely needed to do it, I had to ask my boss first (Or provide a really good reason after the fact!)

    That is all this memo is. "Don't do shit that is going to rile up the media unless you ask me first". Of course, Soldiers are ALWAYS allowed to do what they need to defend themselves, and since we saw the NG doing several of the things on that list, clearly they did ask for, and receive, permission to do it. They weren't actually used as traffic control, we saw them in a shield wall moving rioters away from the capital.
    "We have it totally under control. It’s one person coming in from China. We have it under control. It’s going to be just fine." DJT- Jan 22, 2020
    "And again, when you have 15 people, and the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero, that’s a pretty good job we’ve done." DJT- Feb 26, 2020
    “It’s going to disappear. One day — it’s like a miracle — it will disappear.” DJT- Feb 27, 2020

  14. #4094
    The Unstoppable Force Kellhound's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Bank of the Columbia
    Posts
    20,665
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    And as has been pointed out, they are objectively more restricted than they were... at the same location... just a few months ago.

    I have made no claims as to what you are talking about.
    And the restrictions are not effectively significant given the equipment authorized in both cases.

    Again, I would have preferred to see them armed with fixed bayonets both times because it is very effective at moving people.
    Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.
    “Whoever said the pen is mightier than the sword obviously never encountered automatic weapons.”
    "His knowledge on that topic is only power point deep..." "Power corrupts and PowerPoint corrupts absolutely."
    "Who's the more foolish? The fool, or the fool who follows him?"

  15. #4095
    Quote Originally Posted by Thekri View Post
    Not sure where you got the idea they were more or less restricted then they were during last year. The actual actions of the NG in both cases were very simular. The major differences are 1) You didn't see the use of force memo last time, and 2) Last time they had a LOT of support by other federal agencies, where they had almost none this time.

    The first is not a big deal, the second absolutely is. As I mentioned in my earlier post on the topic, I am EXTREMELY concerned by the actions of numerous federal agencies during the Washington protests last year. Many of these agencies cannot even be identified, such as who was operating surveillance aircraft over the crowd, or who was providing the "Goon Squads" we saw in both DC and Portland. Other agencies we can identify, such as the National Park service, were operating WAY outside the scope of their authority, and tear gassing crowds. But I can't find any evidence that the National Guard itself was particularly misused in those cases (If you remember the iconic picture of them on the Washington Monument, they had no guns, no riot shields, and weren't advancing on protestors).

    As far as the memo itself, you seem to completely misunderstand what it is. It is a very standard use of force format, I dealt with similar documents hundreds of times. When it says "You can't do this thing without asking permission" that is exactly what it means. It doesn't mean you can't do it, it just means you have to ask the person assigned to approve such things. In Afghanistan we had mountains of these memos, restricting all sorts of things. "Don't use Aerial munitions within X distance of a structure", "Don't obstruct civilian traffic along roads", "Don't enter agricultural areas", but none of those were hard rules, each of them had a person you had to ask before you did something like that. They don't want Soldiers doing donuts in some poor farmers fields, but if one of my Platoons needed to go after a mortar emplacement or something, I was the one authorized to approve that. For something more serious, like Aerial Munitions near a residential structure, if we absolutely needed to do it, I had to ask my boss first (Or provide a really good reason after the fact!)

    That is all this memo is. "Don't do shit that is going to rile up the media unless you ask me first". Of course, Soldiers are ALWAYS allowed to do what they need to defend themselves, and since we saw the NG doing several of the things on that list, clearly they did ask for, and receive, permission to do it. They weren't actually used as traffic control, we saw them in a shield wall moving rioters away from the capital.
    The order literally states they are not allowed to wear body armor. As you can see from the photos from before, they are allowed to wear them.

    I've seen plenty of UOF and SOFA agreements.

    Most of it is fine, but some of it is not. This isn't about misuse, it's about equipping them. I get an order telling hem they are not to act as a law-enforcement entity. I get saying they are not allowed firearms. I take specific exception with not allowing them body armor and helmets.

    Tis isn't an issue with the actions of the National Guard troops, but with their limitations beforehand. And let's not pretend that the National Guard deployment was anything but a major catastrophe. Governors and the DC mayor were BEGGING to have the, and they were being stonewalled. Larry Hogan, a republican was on the phone desperately trying to offer assistance.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    And the restrictions are not effectively significant given the equipment authorized in both cases.

    Again, I would have preferred to see them armed with fixed bayonets both times because it is very effective at moving people.
    Body armor and helmets are important when dealing with a riot.
    Last edited by Machismo; 2021-02-02 at 08:54 PM.

  16. #4096
    Legendary! Thekri's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    A highly disgruntled constituent of Lindsey Graham.
    Posts
    6,115
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    The order literally states they are not allowed to wear body armor. As you can see from the photos from before, they are allowed to wear them.

    I've seen plenty of UOF and SOFA agreements.

    Most of it is fine, but some of it is not. This isn't about misuse, it's about equipping them. I get an order telling hem they are not to act as a law-enforcement entity. I get saying they are not allowed firearms. I take specific exception with not allowing them body armor and helmets.

    Tis isn't an issue with the actions of the National Guard troops, but with their limitations beforehand.
    Again, it does not prohibit wearing body armor and helmets, it merely requires authorization before you do so. At the time that memo was written (January 5th) there was no a clear reason to deploy body armor or helmets in Washington DC. The Military REALLY doesn't like the optics of doing so (The fact that some police agencies dress like they are on patrol in Baghdad is a separate issue...).

    When there WAS a reason to deploy those things, they did so. Look at pictures of the National Guard useage at the capital. You will see helmets, riot shields, and body armor all in use.

    Body armor and helmets are important when dealing with a riot
    Of course it is. And when there was a riot (On January 6) the national guard used Body Armor and Helmets. They used tear gas, armored vehicles, and carried rifles as well. However, on January 5th there was not a riot, so the National Guard wasn't there, and wasn't using those things.

    You keep claiming they were limited, but they clearly weren't. They showed up with all the things they needed, and they did it in about 5 hours. Which is extremely fast for a Tuesday. The National Guard isn't like the regular army, they don't show up and sit around bases all day, they have full time civilian jobs. They had to be called up, equipped, and deployed. I don't know how many they had on standby, but I doubt it was the full number deployed that day.

    If you look at the Troops that were posted around the Capital between Jan 6 and Jan 20th, you see the armor, rifles, and helmets all available. (However I don't see any ammunition, the rifles are just for show/poking people).
    "We have it totally under control. It’s one person coming in from China. We have it under control. It’s going to be just fine." DJT- Jan 22, 2020
    "And again, when you have 15 people, and the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero, that’s a pretty good job we’ve done." DJT- Feb 26, 2020
    “It’s going to disappear. One day — it’s like a miracle — it will disappear.” DJT- Feb 27, 2020

  17. #4097
    Quote Originally Posted by Thekri View Post
    Again, it does not prohibit wearing body armor and helmets, it merely requires authorization before you do so. At the time that memo was written (January 5th) there was no a clear reason to deploy body armor or helmets in Washington DC. The Military REALLY doesn't like the optics of doing so (The fact that some police agencies dress like they are on patrol in Baghdad is a separate issue...).

    When there WAS a reason to deploy those things, they did so. Look at pictures of the National Guard useage at the capital. You will see helmets, riot shields, and body armor all in use.


    Of course it is. And when there was a riot (On January 6) the national guard used Body Armor and Helmets. They used tear gas, armored vehicles, and carried rifles as well. However, on January 5th there was not a riot, so the National Guard wasn't there, and wasn't using those things.

    You keep claiming they were limited, but they clearly weren't. They showed up with all the things they needed, and they did it in about 5 hours. Which is extremely fast for a Tuesday. The National Guard isn't like the regular army, they don't show up and sit around bases all day, they have full time civilian jobs. They had to be called up, equipped, and deployed. I don't know how many they had on standby, but I doubt it was the full number deployed that day.

    If you look at the Troops that were posted around the Capital between Jan 6 and Jan 20th, you see the armor, rifles, and helmets all available. (However I don't see any ammunition, the rifles are just for show/poking people).
    When there was a riot on Jan 6th, the National Guard wasn't even there.

    They didn't show up for several hours, despite the governors and mayors literally begging to be able to do it. W already know this, Larry Hogan went on television to state it.

    It does prohibit them from being warn, until they are given permission to do so.
    Last edited by Machismo; 2021-02-02 at 09:06 PM.

  18. #4098
    Legendary! Thekri's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    A highly disgruntled constituent of Lindsey Graham.
    Posts
    6,115
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    When there was a riot on Jan 6th, the National Guard wasn't even there.
    Which is a much bigger issue then anything to do with the national guard. There are a lot of people responsible for securing the Capital, but there were no resources in place to security. Using the National Guard is absolutely the last resort. It wasn't that large a crowd, it could/should have been handled by Police. It wasn't, because the Police seemed to be complicit AF.

    They didn't show up for several hours, despite the governors and mayors literally begging to be able to do it.
    Were exactly do you think the DC National Guard is physically located? Hint: It isn't at the Capital Building. They use normal trucks and stuff to move, it isn't particularly fast. Then they have to get all their people together, brief them what is going on, issue them their stuff, get them on the trucks, drive to the capital...

    I promise you, it takes forever to get a military unit to go anywhere. Hours is pretty fast, because again, THEY ARE NOT POLICE. They aren't supposed to show up on a minutes notice to quell insurrections, because we aren't supposed to need that capability.

    It does prohibit them from being warn, until they are given permission to do so.
    ... which is exactly what I said, with sentence structure moved around. Since that permission was given, and the body armor was worn, it is a non-issue. Plenty of legitimate issues here, this memo isn't really one of them. I don't like it at the DoD level, as I said the first time, but there isn't a case to be made that it actually hurt anything.
    "We have it totally under control. It’s one person coming in from China. We have it under control. It’s going to be just fine." DJT- Jan 22, 2020
    "And again, when you have 15 people, and the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero, that’s a pretty good job we’ve done." DJT- Feb 26, 2020
    “It’s going to disappear. One day — it’s like a miracle — it will disappear.” DJT- Feb 27, 2020

  19. #4099
    The Undying cubby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    the Quiet Room
    Posts
    31,547
    Quote Originally Posted by Thekri View Post
    Were exactly do you think the DC National Guard is physically located? Hint: It isn't at the Capital Building. They use normal trucks and stuff to move, it isn't particularly fast. Then they have to get all their people together, brief them what is going on, issue them their stuff, get them on the trucks, drive to the capital...

    I promise you, it takes forever to get a military unit to go anywhere. Hours is pretty fast, because again, THEY ARE NOT POLICE. They aren't supposed to show up on a minutes notice to quell insurrections, because we aren't supposed to need that capability.
    But there is direct evidence that the National Guard was delayed significantly outside of their normal response times. Trump and his political cronies stalled potential response times with direct orders that stymied communication and orders.

  20. #4100
    Legendary! Thekri's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    A highly disgruntled constituent of Lindsey Graham.
    Posts
    6,115
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    But there is direct evidence that the National Guard was delayed significantly outside of their normal response times. Trump and his political cronies stalled potential response times with direct orders that stymied communication and orders.
    Sure, don't doubt it. Everyone in that administration was a complete POS.

    The only point I was making is that it is silly to claim they weren't allowed to wear armor, when we saw them wearing armor when they showed up. Obviously everything about the Trump administrations response was horrible, but that was just standard for them.
    "We have it totally under control. It’s one person coming in from China. We have it under control. It’s going to be just fine." DJT- Jan 22, 2020
    "And again, when you have 15 people, and the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero, that’s a pretty good job we’ve done." DJT- Feb 26, 2020
    “It’s going to disappear. One day — it’s like a miracle — it will disappear.” DJT- Feb 27, 2020

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •