Capitol Insurrection / rebellion thread

[cubby]

To play devil's advocate, it appears that this case was one of the simplest to prosecute; the only things they were charging her with involved basically just following the crowd into the building; the four charges they originally filed only included stuff like "entering and remaining in a restricted building", "disorderly and disruptive conduct", and "parading, demonstrating, or picketing in a Capitol building". No damage to property, no B&E, no assaults, just basically "being there".

And for that, 3 years probation, 120 hours of community service, and a $500 fine. Seems okay, since it's just a misdemeanor she pled to.

What this does do is set a baseline; none of the 500 or so charged should expect any less than this.

and @beanman12345

IMO, this is entirely correct. In large-scale events/crimes like this, prosecutors do some early "test runs" on relatively minor cases stemming from the overall event, to see how it goes, look for possible issues, etc. Warm-ups for the bigger cases coming.

I agree with beanman's sentiment that it should have been more, even with the relatively minor ones. I think we're going to be perpetually disappointed in the punishment outputs stemming from convictions in this event.

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Settling these charges does not provide her immunity to further charges.

I imagine they're holding off on sedition charges until they're applied to the most obvious conspirators. Once they've got a seditious conspiracy established as a point of legal precedence, it gets much simpler to tie others into it.

It actually does. The 5th Amendment essentially prohibits double jeopardy, and the plea deal in this case prevents other, more serious crimes from being levied, because it's from the same event, even if the charges might seem unrelated.

Sedition is a very unknown crime to be charged with, in case law, so it might be an exception.

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Not playing devils advocate, I said this is is a low level case. But "just basically being there" is not a good argument imo, when the simple act of "just basically being there" is committing by the wording of the law, seditious conspiracy. But that's our fucked justice system as I said.

Double Jeopardy is a good rule overall, and I don't think it comes from the fucked up part of our judicial system. And with any tool available, there are inevitably going to be shitty outcomes and great outcomes, with lots of results in between.

I think we all know where this one falls.

[beanman12345]

Settling these charges does not provide her immunity to further charges.

I imagine they're holding off on sedition charges until they're applied to the most obvious conspirators. Once they've got a seditious conspiracy established as a point of legal precedence, it gets much simpler to tie others into it.

It's gonna get interesting cause the first oath keeper just pleaded guilty to said conspiracy charges, so I don't think any of these people should be able to just get a slap on the wrist, but many will despite the fact that everyone who took a single step into that building that day should spend time in prison, not jail, but prison, different lengths? yes, because of different involvement of the crime. But sentencing today wasn't "just" in this case though because judge said "oh she felt remorse" no she didn't, she only said that in court cause she got caught. She didn't even turn herself in, she was on camera saying how great a day it was. Someone at a store saw her, recognized her and notified authorities. That's why I say it's fucked up, cause if this was some drug possession first time offender, it would be minimum years in prison depending on the state. Only a few will spend time in prison with this whole affair, but all of them should, hopefully you are right, and most if not all do, even if it's to varying degree's, "6 months" even for just "being there" is the recommended sentence, but she got a slap on the wrist simply cause she said "I'm sorry."

https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/23/polit...ung/index.html
@cubby yes i truly think this is due to privilege and our justice system is fucked up because of said privilege. It's certainly not blind.

[Edge-]

https://www.npr.org/2021/06/23/10096...he-capitol-rio

Quite a bit of first person footage of the violence and hate that Capitol police and MPD faced on Jan. 6.

I wish some of our conservative posters like Dacien and Shadowpanther were around so we could get their take on if this looks like a friendly tour or like an angry mob assaulting law enforcement officers.

I guess I've been on the wrong tours, because the tours I've been on elsewhere are all pretty boring.

Also, are these folks antifa/BLM? The FBI? Looks like neither to me, but I can't keep track of who they're actually supposed to be according to Republicans and conservative media. Or maybe they were all Trump supporters like they claim they are in angrily refusing to allow antifa/BLM/the FBI to steal the credit for their riotous assault on the Capitol.

[cubby]

Rudy Giuliani has been suspended from practicing law in New York after a court found 'uncontroverted evidence' that he made 'demonstrably false and misleading statements' about the election.

And there will be more punishment to come for America's Mayor turned traitor.

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Rudy Giuliani is a fucking liar. Judicially confirmed.

[Krakan]

https://www.npr.org/2021/06/23/10096...he-capitol-rio

Quite a bit of first person footage of the violence and hate that Capitol police and MPD faced on Jan. 6.

I wish some of our conservative posters like Dacien and Shadowpanther were around so we could get their take on if this looks like a friendly tour or like an angry mob assaulting law enforcement officers.

I guess I've been on the wrong tours, because the tours I've been on elsewhere are all pretty boring.

Also, are these folks antifa/BLM? The FBI? Looks like neither to me, but I can't keep track of who they're actually supposed to be according to Republicans and conservative media. Or maybe they were all Trump supporters like they claim they are in angrily refusing to allow antifa/BLM/the FBI to steal the credit for their riotous assault on the Capitol.

I don't think anyone is claiming they are not a mob. It's more just fatigue of mobs loosely tied to political groups. The inmates are running the asylum and they have for so long most people simply yawn at this point and find so.ething more compelling to invest their time in.

[Edge-]

I don't think anyone is claiming they are not a mob.

Have you missed Congressional Republicans in the House and Senate, as well as plenty of state level Republicans, and major conservative media parroting this lie?

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2021...-tourist-visit

Including one of the asshats literally pictured cowering against a wall with armed security, weapons drawn, in between him and the door that the rioters were trying to break through.

Also like...Republican voters.

It's more just fatigue of mobs loosely tied to political groups.

You're gonna have to explain this one in more detail to me, because I don't know what you're trying to say.

The inmates are running the asylum and they have for so long most people simply yawn at this point and find so.ething more compelling to invest their time in.

Ah yes, just like the Republicans downplaying the Jan 6 attack. "It wasn't a big deal, I don't get why everyone cares so much. Can't we just move on and forget the past?"

[Krakan]

Have you missed Congressional Republicans in the House and Senate, as well as plenty of state level Republicans, and major conservative media parroting this lie?

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2021...-tourist-visit

Including one of the asshats literally pictured cowering against a wall with armed security, weapons drawn, in between him and the door that the rioters were trying to break through.

Also like...Republican voters.



You're gonna have to explain this one in more detail to me, because I don't know what you're trying to say.



Ah yes, just like the Republicans downplaying the Jan 6 attack. "It wasn't a big deal, I don't get why everyone cares so much. Can't we just move on and forget the past?"

It's ban bait but sure I can clarify a bit.

People are tired of political violence be it BLM or this. Not angry or upset not anymore just exhausted that we insist on fools acting out is some kind of statement. It's simply a case of exhaustion I was only drawn to the thread out of curiosity on it still being bumped.

[Kaleredar]

It's ban bait but sure I can clarify a bit.

People are tired of political violence be it BLM or this. Not angry or upset not anymore just exhausted that we insist on fools acting out is some kind of statement. It's simply a case of exhaustion I was only drawn to the thread out of curiosity on it still being bumped.

I’m sorry you’re “fatigued” by news right-wing nationalists threatening and assaulting American institutions.

It’d be real great if they stopped doing it. Pursuing justice against the perpetrators can ensure that it stops.


And sorry, the lethal assault on the nation’s capitol building was not equivalent to whatever BLM “trash can thrown through window” violence you’re mistakenly equating as “the same as the January 6th insurrection”

[shimerra]

It's ban bait but sure I can clarify a bit.

People are tired of political violence be it BLM or this. Not angry or upset not anymore just exhausted that we insist on fools acting out is some kind of statement. It's simply a case of exhaustion I was only drawn to the thread out of curiosity on it still being bumped.

Strange how you're vastly more annoyed by some protests turning violent because of police abuse of power an actual armed attempt to overthrow the US government vs. Or that you consider the two remotely equal even if we go by the outright overblown rights you and other conservatives peddle about the evils of BLM.

I eagerly await your token one line response down playing right wing groups literally trying to over throw an election because they're butt hurt they lost, or attempting to kid nap a state gov, or assaulting the state house in Oregon, or threatening federal agents in Nevada, or.....fuck it too much to list here. But we'll get pages upon pages about how BLM or antifa kicking over a trash can or blocking traffic are the worst thing ever.

Bet you would've called the actual Tea Party protesters, the original one not the whiny entitled boomer conservatives of the modern age, fools acting out.

[Krakan]

I’m sorry you’re “fatigued” by news right-wing nationalists threatening and assaulting American institutions.

It’d be real great if they stopped doing it. Pursuing justice against the perpetrators can ensure that it stops.


And sorry, the lethal assault on the nation’s capitol building was not equivalent to whatever BLM “trash can thrown through window” violence you’re mistakenly equating as “the same as the January 6th insurrection”

I think you missed my point but at some point you learn to move on. People want the world to be easy with a right and wrong side and any shade of grey gets stamped out here rather quickly.

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Strange how you're vastly more annoyed by some protests turning violent because of police abuse of power an actual armed attempt to overthrow the US government vs.

Let's assume the absolute worse case scenario and they murdered everyone inside the capital. That wouldn't of over thrown the government that isn't how any of this works.

I just grow weary of the state of things. I miss when the absolute worst of society defined major political parties.

[Belize]

I miss when the absolute worst of society defined major political parties.

It still does, it's called the Republican party.

[shimerra]

Let's assume the absolute worse case scenario and they murdered everyone inside the capital. That wouldn't of over thrown the government that isn't how any of this works.

I just grow weary of the state of things. I miss when the absolute worst of society defined major political parties.

Who said I thought they'd succeed? Their chances of success are also not particularly relevant to the fact that they committed the crime regardless of the low odds of it achieving their stated goal or my criticism of your repeated attempts to belittle that fact. The fact of the matter is they tried and the actual damage done was significantly higher than your constant whining/criticizing over BLM protests. And even worse they did it based on a 100% verifiable lie pushed by elected Republicans and the President at the time. Whether or not you agree with the scope of the problem the issues BLM is talking about at least actually happen. Your attempts to equivocate them are either the result of profound and purposeful ignorance or a big fat lie.


And attempted murder is a crime for a reason. You don't get a pass just because you failed to do something fucked up. So let's assume you understood that from the beginning and I didn't have to point out something painfully obvious to you. Care to rephrase your answer instead of solidly proving exactly the point I was making? The state goal, to which they enacted actual violence, was to overturn the results of the free and fair elections held by the USA. The fact that they failed, despite the President and Conservative attempts to ignore intelligence indicating a possible attack, is not relevant to what I said but it is telling to your state of mind that you again deflect and belittle the seriousness of the crime and its scale.

You seem to be far more weary of one than the other, and your attempts to equivocate the two are disingenuous at best. I grow weary of the state of things to. Especially people like you comparing gullible conservatives breaching the Capitol building for its first time in 200 years to Jay walking and protestors blocking a high way to beating the shit out of your wife and children while they force you to watch. What happened to you to make you like that?

[uuuhname]

what's the point of discussing this with someone who honestly seems to think BLM is violent. these people are not operating in the real world.

[Zinstorm]

what's the point of discussing this with someone who honestly seems to think BLM is violent. these people are not operating in the real world.

I think it's less about changing that person's mind and more about showcasing how much their argument holds up (or doesn't hold up) for anyone else lurking.

[Edge-]

Let's assume the absolute worse case scenario and they murdered everyone inside the capital. That wouldn't of over thrown the government that isn't how any of this works.

...ok? Should we not care if they murdered everyone there? Nobody think they "almost overthrew the government", but they did almost take the Capitol building (temporarily). That's still serious.

Remember, militia dudes in MI were arrested because they were preparing to kidnap the governor of MI, and either occupy the MI Capitol building and execute people or burn the Capitol building to the ground. They had plans for this. Whether they'd have been successful or not is another matter, but the plans, or attempts, matter quite a bit even if they exhaust you.

[uuuhname]

I think it's less about changing that person's mind and more about showcasing how much their argument holds up (or doesn't hold up) for anyone else lurking.

I.... I'm not sure how effective that is given how another thread has gone, on and off for the past month.

[Santti]

...ok? Should we not care if they murdered everyone there? Nobody think they "almost overthrew the government", but they did almost take the Capitol building (temporarily). That's still serious.

Remember, militia dudes in MI were arrested because they were preparing to kidnap the governor of MI, and either occupy the MI Capitol building and execute people or burn the Capitol building to the ground. They had plans for this. Whether they'd have been successful or not is another matter, but the plans, or attempts, matter quite a bit even if they exhaust you.

I think it's a good time to link this. Again.



Thanks Simpsons.

[draynay]

I don't think anyone is claiming they are not a mob. It's more just fatigue of mobs loosely tied to political groups. The inmates are running the asylum and they have for so long most people simply yawn at this point and find so.ething more compelling to invest their time in.

If you're truly bored of the thread topic perhaps you should stop reading and posting in it.

[Krakan]

If you're truly bored of the thread topic perhaps you should stop reading and posting in it.

I likely should. Political violence has simply become common again and watching people desperately try to point score over it while at the same time defend their political form of violence as righteous isn't likely productive and will eventually be swept up as trolling eventually.

It just really annoys me how primed and pumped people are for it. You can look at the car accident thread in the forums. It's just people seeking moral outrage.

[CastletonSnob]

Why aren't people protesting in the streets for voting rights and for Congress to investigate what happened on 1/6?