1. #2401
    I am Murloc!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    That i will agree with. Every country has different standards. Some are similar like:

    Yelling "Fire" in a theater, inciting murder and violence.

    My country has added "the jews are the root of all our problems", because we had some bad experiences with that, and thought it would be a good idea.

    But that's not what @Machismo claimed. He claimed that the EU has limitations on free speech and that Merkel has a desire to limit free speech. So i'm asking for the facts why he thinks the EU as a whole has less freedom of speech, and why Merkel has a desire for censorship, because that sounds a bit too far fetched.
    Considering he calls it freedom of speech and not freedom of expression i will assume he has not looked into EU positions on the topic (i could be wrong of course)

  2. #2402
    Banned docterfreeze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    What crimes? Aren't I just exercising free speech?

    Or, are you saying I don't get tto have free speech on your property, without your permission?
    Trespassing (or if in a business, indecent exposure) and vandalism.

  3. #2403
    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    So because she doesn't agree with his ban she has a desire to limit free speech? That's a bit far fechted. I'd like to link you to an article from a german newspaper, because that makes it clearer.

    What she argues about is that if someone is dangerous the government should handle this, and it shouldn't be left to private companies.

    She is not so much talking about their freedom of association, but rather that if Trump is dangerous he should be censored by the government, and it shouldn't be on the whim of private entities.

    And seriously, that's something every country does to a degree. Doesn't your country also imprison people for inciting violence and terror? Nothing else.


    I get your viewpoint from the freedom of association, and i'm pretty sure she's not attacking that one, but more arguing that punishment shouldn't be left to the "virtual mob".

    Oh, btw. i disagree with her, i just think you're reading something into her that she's not saying.
    She literally says she wants the government to do it, and doesn't think that companies like Twitter should be able to exercise their free speech and freedom off association.

    But, to take that out of the hands of a private entity, is to remove freedom of association. That's the point.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by docterfreeze View Post
    Trespassing (or if in a business, indecent exposure) and vandalism.
    But, I'm just trying to use speech...

    Wait until you figure it out...

    SO, you should have no issue with a company kicking someone off their fucking property. But, since you do, you're being a hypocrite on the issue.

  4. #2404
    Banned docterfreeze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    But, I'm just trying to use speech...

    Wait until you figure it out...

    SO, you should have no issue with a company kicking someone off their fucking property. But, since you do, you're being a hypocrite on the issue.
    poopie isn't speech

  5. #2405
    Quote Originally Posted by docterfreeze View Post
    poopie isn't speech
    It's art... expression.

    So, if that feces is the only limiting factor, then you should have no problem taking it out of the equation, and saying I can come over to your house, scream racist shit at your family, and you cannot kick me off your property.

    Is that your stance?

  6. #2406
    Banned docterfreeze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    It's art... expression.

    So, if that feces is the only limiting factor, then you should have no problem taking it out of the equation, and saying I can come over to your house, scream racist shit at your family, and you cannot kick me off your property.

    Is that your stance?
    Trespassing isn't speech

  7. #2407
    Quote Originally Posted by docterfreeze View Post
    Trespassing isn't speech
    Why is it trespassing, because it's your property, and I'm not wanted?

    Well, it's also Twitter's property, and Trump isn't wanted.

    It's weird how you care about your property rights, but not Twitter's.

    Checkmate.

  8. #2408
    The Lightbringer Pannonian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    She literally says she wants the government to do it, and doesn't think that companies like Twitter should be able to exercise their free speech and freedom off association.

    But, to take that out of the hands of a private entity, is to remove freedom of association. That's the point.

    - - - Updated - - -



    But, I'm just trying to use speech...

    Wait until you figure it out...

    SO, you should have no issue with a company kicking someone off their fucking property. But, since you do, you're being a hypocrite on the issue.
    Yeah, i get it, but please believe me, that the 1st amendment and freedom of association are not that big of a deal in the public perception here. We're quite aware of our rights, especially the freedom of speech, and we fight for a lot of them (and some of the imagined as well), but we don't have that kind of .. dogmatic ... approach to "1st amendment!!!!"

    I even agree with you on principle, but i think you're reaching too far if you think her goal is to limit the freedom of expression of companies. I don't think she's actually thinking about it.

    If you read her words in german i think it would be more clear, what she means is that IF someone should do it, it should be the government, not private entities without any control or public oversight.

    Which of course runs contrary to freedom of association.

    That's why i agree with you and think she is wrong. But to construct a desire to censor, seems a bit far fetched. Didn't you make a post a few hours ago where you told a european about how he doesn't know how the dc police feels and why local insight might be helpful? I feel we're now in a similar situation. I get your point, and you're right, but in this case you have to take the european discussion on the matter into context.
    Last edited by Pannonian; 2021-01-11 at 08:48 PM.

  9. #2409
    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Yeah, i get it, but please believe me, while 1st amendment and freedom of association are not that big of a deal in the public perception here. We're quite aware of our rights and we fight for a lot of them (and some of the imagined as well), but we don't have that kind of .. dogmatic ... approach to "1st amendment!!!!"

    I even agree with you on principle, but i think you're reaching too far if you think her goal is to limit the freedom of expression of companies. I don't think she's actually thinking about it.

    If you read her words in german i think it would be more clear, what she means is that IF someone should do it, it should be the government, not private entities without any control.

    Which of course runs contrary to freedom of association.

    That's why i agree with you and think she is wrong. But to construct a desire to censor, seems a bit far fetched. Didn't you make a post a few hours ago where you told a european about how he doesn't know how the dc police feels and why local insight might be helpful? I feel we're now in a similar situation. I get your point, and you're right, but in this case you have to take the european discussion on the matter into context.
    Except, they are a huge deal over here... even when many have it completely ass backwards in what it means. And honestly, like a lot of things, it means different things in different countries. In the United States, that means government isn't getting in the way of such things.

  10. #2410
    Pandaren Monk wunksta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    https://www.stcroixrepublican.org/

    Yo, check out the front page of the St. Croix Republican Party.



    Fuckin cosplay insurrectionists.
    Spelling and grammatical errors abound.

  11. #2411
    Banned docterfreeze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Why is it trespassing, because it's your property, and I'm not wanted?

    Well, it's also Twitter's property, and Trump isn't wanted.

    It's weird how you care about your property rights, but not Twitter's.

    Checkmate.
    Trespassing doesn't apply to "property", only property.

  12. #2412
    Quote Originally Posted by docterfreeze View Post
    Trespassing doesn't apply to "property" only property.
    It's their property.

    It's a shame you cannot be more consistent.

  13. #2413
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    It's their property.

    It's a shame you cannot be more consistent.
    And trespassing laws only apply to real life property. Backpedal more.

  14. #2414
    Quote Originally Posted by docterfreeze View Post
    And trespassing laws only apply to real life property. Backpedal more.
    I'm not backpedaling, it's their property. You can be prosecuted for breaking onto websites without permission.

    It's a shame you don't support property rights, when it's not your property.

    Imagine getting caught being a hypocrite in order to shill for Nazis...

  15. #2415
    The Lightbringer Pannonian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Except, they are a huge deal over here... even when many have it completely ass backwards in what it means. And honestly, like a lot of things, it means different things in different countries. In the United States, that means government isn't getting in the way of such things.
    Sure, that's why she's wrong, but as i said, i'm pretty sure there is no more sinister plan to limit freedom of association.

    Fun Fact:

    Currently, the biggest tv station in germany is sendings its xth season of Germanies next Idol (the german version "Deutschland sucht den Superstart"). They already filmed most of it, when one of the judges drifted into the far right edge of the internet with all kind of conspiracy theories. Last week (after another distasteful holocaust reference) they decided to censor him from the show. The viewed an episode last saturday, the guy fully blurred and any of his lines cut out.

    Not one politician or media outlet disagreed with that. So there really is no desire to limit freedom of association, it's just that the discussion from the german region translates badly in the context of the US.

  16. #2416
    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Sure, that's why she's wrong, but as i said, i'm pretty sure there is no more sinister plan to limit freedom of association.

    Fun Fact:

    Currently, the biggest tv station in germany is sendings its xth season of Germanies next Idol (the german version "Deutschland sucht den Superstart"). They already filmed most of it, when one of the jurors drifted onto the farright edge of the internet with all kind of conspiracy theories. Last week (after another distasteful holocaust reference) they decided to censor him from the show. The viewed an episode last saturday, the guy fully blurred and any of his lines cut out.

    Not one politician or media outlet disagreed with that. So there really is no desire to limit freedom of association, it's just that the discussion from the german region translates badly in the context of the US.
    There are more sinister plans, I just happen to disagree with her. She's not nearly the fascist that Trump is.

  17. #2417
    The Lightbringer Pannonian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    There are more sinister plans, I just happen to disagree with her. She's not nearly the fascist that Trump is.
    Care to share which sinister plan Merkel, a woman retiring in a few months, is hedging?

  18. #2418
    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Care to share which sinister plan Merkel, a woman retiring in a few months, is hedging?
    That's not what I said, I already pointed to my issue, it was in the article.

  19. #2419
    The Lightbringer Pannonian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    That's not what I said, I already pointed to my issue, it was in the article.
    Ah sorry, i obviously misunderstood your "There are more sinister plans".

  20. #2420
    Banned docterfreeze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    I'm not backpedaling, it's their property. You can be prosecuted for breaking onto websites without permission.

    It's a shame you don't support property rights, when it's not your property.

    Imagine getting caught being a hypocrite in order to shill for Nazis...
    You keep trying to add something illegal on top of free speech. First ammendment doesn't let you commit crimes in the name of free speech.

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