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  1. #61
    Just so EVERYONE knows.... the word "Toxic" in gaming started with Phreak from League of Legends. He used it once in commentary after the tribunal video was released in May2011 and the word since rose in popularity when players are "unpleasant." I refuse to use toxic in this matter.

    I said toxic to my neighbor who does not speak english primarily, in reference to another neighbor. The whole conversation they thought i was saying someone is poisoned.
    They literally thought someone was dying instead of being a slob. Sometimes it's better to just say what you mean, instead of what is popular...

  2. #62
    If being unwilling to put up with people who have no business being in a m0, let alone a +11 (because they should more realistically be in a normal and read about the fucking base mechanics of just about anything) makes you toxic, then yes, you're toxic. More so, I'm among the most toxic people in the world then.

    I have no shame leaving your key if you turn out to be one of those people. Like, I had patience with people fucking up hooks on NWs 3rd boss for 30 minutes straight on week one of the expansion - but I'm not going to deal with that shit if you have the audacity to go into a +15 tyrannical key without knowing shit about the main mechanic of a boss fight. If you don't respect my time, I'm not gonna respect yours. I don't care if people call me toxic for that, that kind of bitching tends to only come from the biggest failers, their labels mean absolutely nothing to me, partially because the term toxic itself has lost all meaning and is basically equivalent to people insulting each other as conservatives/leftists for mildly disagreeing on just about anything.

    There's a time for teaching/learning dungeons... and there's endgame m+ keys.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Fidisko View Post
    Helo,

    Ive read many times that wow community is very toxic, but what does toxicity even mean?

    For me Toxic players are the ones that are blaming everyone for failing and ruining player experience on purpose. ( leaving groups without purpose, be mean, blaming everyone and just cry)

    Yesterday i went 2x Mythic +11, i did buy flask/food, have correct talents and know each boss and trash mechanics and i know my job not to fail the group.
    Because there are 4 more people who probably dont have all the time like me in the world and want to have things done. So its my responsibility for them as well to do as much as i can, not to fail.

    And for me this is common sense. Now my experience from yesterday is that ppl didnt know tactics at all at the Other side Manastorm fight, me as a Healer deffused all the bombs, soak 2 crystals and they didnt stack on the Aoe from Malificient and im told them after wipe that im doing everything yet they have clearly no idea what to do here. DPS left and the group blamed me that he did because of me, because why am i even writing something?

    its like are people really getting offended so easily? I did 150% job at the fight yet they did 50% so should i just be quiet and wipe?

    Today same, 2/5 people had no idea what to do at +11, when i ask them why not read jornal before making/joining a group, im blamed that im taking the game really seriously and just "chill bruh". Ok i was quiet we wiped 5 times at one boss due to same mistakes, then i left.

    For me, this is not toxicity but taking responsibily for your own actions and be responsible to the group members as well, and im not gonna carry someone else because he cant click dungeon journal and read 2 senteces. From my perspective they are toxic, they are ruining the group experience and blaming others attitude because they cannot admit they simply failed the boss,dungeon whatever and learn from it

    What is your opinion?

    Thanks
    Just telling people they're wrong or they should the dungeon journal isn't constructive criticism. Not saying it's your responsibility to teach people mechanics but it is a bit toxic to just tell people they're bad which is essentially what you did.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimbold21 View Post
    Toxicity has perversely evolved to include people who tell others they are doing something wrong, and no I don't actually mean being a dick about it.

    Once, I was called toxic a Shrine run in Bfa because I wrote that it looked like people didn't have interrupts in their action bars.
    I mean, that's a pretty toxic way to say it honestly.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Belloc View Post
    It's simple: If you're being a dick to your fellow players, you're the toxic one. If you're not being a dick but your fellow players are, or they are being dicks in response to you calling out their failings, then they are the toxic ones.

    So, OP, it really just depends on what exactly you said to them. If you said, "wtf is wrong with you? you're supposed to stand [place], not [other place]..." then you are the toxic one. If, however, you said, "Hey guys, for this fight, we're supposed to stand [place] when [event] happens. I noticed some of us were standing [elsewhere/random] and that's why we wiped..." and then they whined and left? Then they are the toxic ones.

    People who come to difficult content (defined as heroic+/mythic10+) without knowing the fights and freak out when they're called out are toxic. People who respond to failure with yelling and bitching are toxic.

    Finally: OP, if you want to avoid these issues in the future, then add good players to your friends list and create groups from people who know what they're doing.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I would say that they deserved to be talked to as equals. Not WoW equals, of course, but human equals.

    Something like, "Hey, [druid], it looks like you don't really know how to handle these fights. Unfortunately, that means we're not going to be able to complete this run with you. In the future, it would be best for all involved if you watch a video or read a guide before taking on high-level mythic content. Best of luck!"

    The above is polite and considerate. It conveys the message that the player is not up to the task of completing the run while also treating them with basic human decency.
    But is it polite and considerate of a player to sign up for a group well knowing that they don’t know the strats and therefore waste 4 other peoples time? Why do I have to be polite when they disrespect me like that and don’t give a shit about my time? Imagine being at work all day and then having 1-2 hours to play and some dipshit waste that time because they don’t give a shit about other people.

    Good thing I never pug. Cannot be bothered. I play with friends who value my time as well as their own

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Angrie View Post
    Just so EVERYONE knows.... the word "Toxic" in gaming started with Phreak from League of Legends. He used it once in commentary after the tribunal video was released in May2011 and the word since rose in popularity when players are "unpleasant." I refuse to use toxic in this matter.

    I said toxic to my neighbor who does not speak english primarily, in reference to another neighbor. The whole conversation they thought i was saying someone is poisoned.
    They literally thought someone was dying instead of being a slob. Sometimes it's better to just say what you mean, instead of what is popular...
    The fuck are you talking about. The word was toxic was used in this manner before 2011 lmao.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Dastreus View Post
    imo best way to handle is to just explain the mechanics. Not tell them to read the journal. If they still bail or tell you to chill, they are toxic.
    What happened to people knowing tactics BEFORE signing up for a group? Is that too much to expect. I think people are toxic if they knowingly waste other peoples time just because they are lazy.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    But is it polite and considerate of a player to sign up for a group well knowing that they don’t know the strats and therefore waste 4 other peoples time? Why do I have to be polite when they disrespect me like that and don’t give a shit about my time? Imagine being at work all day and then having 1-2 hours to play and some dipshit waste that time because they don’t give a shit about other people.

    Good thing I never pug. Cannot be bothered. I play with friends who value my time as well as their own
    Generally speaking, being a dick to someone that was inconsiderate still means that you're a dick. Stooping to someone's level isn't a good excuse for toxic behavior.

    Additionally, some people simply don't realize that they're committing a faux pas in these situations. It's not like every baddie you run into in a Mythic 10+ has pulled this move before. It's not like the guy who doesn't know the strategy in your heroic raid has also joined a bunch of other heroic raids and made the same mistake. A decent chunk of these people are people who figure, "hey, +7 was a breeze, +11 can't be that bad"... and then learn that they were very wrong. These people didn't disrespect you, they just didn't know any better.

    I don't have to imagine only having 1-2 hours to play and having my time wasted. I came back to WoW back in BFA and I experienced this, first hand, almost every day that I played. It suuuuuuucks big time, I 100% agree... but it's still not right to speak to these people as if they were garbage.
    Grand Crusader Belloc <-- 6608 Endless Tank Proving Grounds score! (
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  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by LanToaster View Post
    However, its in most cases also the "How" you say stuff.
    100%.

    Huge difference between:

    "Team, we gotta make sure we interrupt that."

    vs

    "WTF - INTERRUPT IDIOT"

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Zypherz View Post
    I'd say you're in the right right, but from experience it's better left saying such things after the run completes rather than during it. You're just gonna make them play worse or leave.
    The sad thing is that you're right, and it's sad because your entire run will be garbage because if you say anything it hurts some snowflakes feelings and they leave. You can be the nicest about it "hey excuse me rogue, but I notice you have 0 kicks and we could use some more if you could try to do your best to get some we'd really appreciate it."
    And what the rogue reads is "Hey rogue you fucking suck you have 0 kicks you shit pump, learn 2 play you trash bag"

  10. #70
    Legendary! Frolk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loveliest View Post
    Yes it does if you insult them. If you intend to leave, then leave. If you want to inform them t hey were not doing mechanics, do that. If you just want to insult them for wasting your time - what is the point? The only thing you do by just insulting someone is making yourself feel better while trying to make them feel bad - this is what toxic means, because there is nothing constructive about it.
    Calling out =/= Insulting

    If i say, "Mr. Hunter, why are u doing 1k dps in a +5, sort it out man" Am I insulting mr.hunter?

    I dont play hunter myself, but if a 185 hunter is doing 1k dps i know he is doing things wrong and he is making it worse for the other 4 people.
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  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by dipzz View Post
    The sad thing is that you're right, and it's sad because your entire run will be garbage because if you say anything it hurts some snowflakes feelings and they leave. You can be the nicest about it "hey excuse me rogue, but I notice you have 0 kicks and we could use some more if you could try to do your best to get some we'd really appreciate it."
    And what the rogue reads is "Hey rogue you fucking suck you have 0 kicks you shit pump, learn 2 play you trash bag"
    Quote Originally Posted by Frolk View Post
    Calling out =/= Insulting

    If i say, "Mr. Hunter, why are u doing 1k dps in a +5, sort it out man" Am I insulting mr.hunter?

    I dont play hunter myself, but if a 185 hunter is doing 1k dps i know he is doing things wrong and he is making it worse for the other 4 people.
    IMO, there's usually not much reason to call people out individually. "Hey guys, let's make sure all of us are utilizing our interrupts so we can get through this a bit more smoothly." "Everyone, check your dps figures and think about any adjustments we can make because this is going a little more slowly than we need for the timer." It prevents someone getting a shit attitude for being called out, but still hopefully gets the result you're after of getting everyone to contribute to solving the problem you're experiencing.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Frolk View Post
    Calling out =/= Insulting

    If i say, "Mr. Hunter, why are u doing 1k dps in a +5, sort it out man" Am I insulting mr.hunter?

    I dont play hunter myself, but if a 185 hunter is doing 1k dps i know he is doing things wrong and he is making it worse for the other 4 people.
    Not if he's playing Survival. /s
    In all seriousness this exact scenario happened to me in wrath. I was in Old Kingdom, maybe level 76 and the tank asked if I realized I was only doing 800 dps, and to sort that out.
    I had never had addons and thought I was good before that moment. It's amazing how a simple question can resonate with someone and elicit a positive response.
    Quote Originally Posted by bmjclark View Post
    This thread is a nice reminder that Blizzard can do something nice and still get absolutely shit on for it.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Xjan View Post
    100%.

    Huge difference between:

    "Team, we gotta make sure we interrupt that."

    vs

    "WTF - INTERRUPT IDIOT"
    It gets hard when it's the 100th time. When people so clearly don't respect your time by being unprepared and failing at basic mechanics, you have every right to get frustrated. Yeah, you will be tilted and come off as "toxic". But I fail to see why the "toxic" person gets all the blame in so many cases.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Fidisko View Post
    Helo,

    Ive read many times that wow community is very toxic, but what does toxicity even mean?

    For me Toxic players are the ones that are blaming everyone for failing and ruining player experience on purpose. ( leaving groups without purpose, be mean, blaming everyone and just cry)

    Yesterday i went 2x Mythic +11, i did buy flask/food, have correct talents and know each boss and trash mechanics and i know my job not to fail the group.
    Because there are 4 more people who probably dont have all the time like me in the world and want to have things done. So its my responsibility for them as well to do as much as i can, not to fail.

    And for me this is common sense. Now my experience from yesterday is that ppl didnt know tactics at all at the Other side Manastorm fight, me as a Healer deffused all the bombs, soak 2 crystals and they didnt stack on the Aoe from Malificient and im told them after wipe that im doing everything yet they have clearly no idea what to do here. DPS left and the group blamed me that he did because of me, because why am i even writing something?

    its like are people really getting offended so easily? I did 150% job at the fight yet they did 50% so should i just be quiet and wipe?

    Today same, 2/5 people had no idea what to do at +11, when i ask them why not read jornal before making/joining a group, im blamed that im taking the game really seriously and just "chill bruh". Ok i was quiet we wiped 5 times at one boss due to same mistakes, then i left.

    For me, this is not toxicity but taking responsibily for your own actions and be responsible to the group members as well, and im not gonna carry someone else because he cant click dungeon journal and read 2 senteces. From my perspective they are toxic, they are ruining the group experience and blaming others attitude because they cannot admit they simply failed the boss,dungeon whatever and learn from it

    What is your opinion?

    Thanks
    going from what you have said, it doesn't sound like your toxic. though it really does depend on the exact wording you used. like saying 'hey, you guys don't seem to know the mechanics. you guys need some tips?' versus 'hey idiots, you are wasting our time by not at least looking these fights up before you qued'.

    i hold a very similar point of view as you do. granted i don't get flasks or runes (mostly because i'm a cheapskate) but i do everything in my power to make the run easier such as manually using my pets taunt to help reduce damage to tanks (and give a quicker window to drop necrotic stacks). i would certainly hope that by the time you get to a +11 that people know boss mechanics. to me, 0 through 5 are for learning the mechanics, 6-9 are for practicing mechanics in a more challenging environment, and 10+ is what you do when you are ready to try as hard as you can.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Fidisko View Post
    but if you see that we wipe 2 times on the same boss on the same mechanics, isnt better to tell whats wrong? i was quiet and we died 5 times and then i left. Im responsible for my wording and text i write to you as a person, in not responsible for your action to leave the group because i cant accept the message.

    So should i rather be like... omg dont write anything because maybe he/she will left and be ofended.
    I'm tank and I feel your pain. Yd I got a +9 plaguefall to last boss with 9 minutes to go, awesome right?
    Yeh no... DPS was dying to smashes, panic and running through water dying from debuff, soaking tank smash and it took us 7 wipes... First 3 wipes I didn't even say anything but after I was bit annoyed and said, "sucks we're dying to heroic stuff..." shocker, somehow, it was my fault we're failing... I kid you not... Its not even possible for me to affect anyone else negatively on that fight lol..... Let alone making half the group die multiple times....

  16. #76
    Scarab Lord gaymer77's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fidisko View Post
    For me Toxic players are the ones that are blaming everyone for failing and ruining player experience on purpose. ( leaving groups without purpose, be mean, blaming everyone and just cry)
    Hate to be the one that points this out but that part of your post just described what you did even if you were in the right (can't be 100% on the situation since we're only hearing your side of the story). You were literally blaming everyone else for failing. As @LanToaster LanToaster mentioned, there's two sides to every story and some times how you said it can be the toxic part not just what message you were saying. And on a side note, as a healer, on that particular fight you should be doing the bombs anyway unless they are across the room from where you are at. If DPS has to stop killing shit to take care of a bomb, it extends the fight which means you'll have to heal even longer. Every single DOS I've done on my holy priest I've been the one that does bomb diffusing. I've also soloed my own platform/portal on the last boss multiple times.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Orby View Post
    Gaming culture in general is probably one of the worst fandoms out there with anything else geek culture, star wars, comics.

    I think its best you try and make the best out of the community and leave out what others are trying to make it into.
    Someone's never seen Star Wars and those crazies part of the Imperial Stormtrooper cosplay.

  18. #78
    When I see people not doing mechanics and wiping in keys 7 or higher I just leave.

    I'm too old to be letting random people waste my time.

    Learn in heroic, regular mythics, youtube, etc. A +11 is not the place to be learning...

  19. #79
    I'm amazed at how many people genuinely think phrasing or just "asking questions" like "why are you such a failure?" isn't being a bit of an asshole.

    There's a million ways to approach it that don't involve "just asking" someone why they suck and being all shocked and clutching your pearls when they think you're a poorly socialized misanthrope.

    Neurotypicals are likely to take that poorly more often than not. It does not read as simply an innocent question, and it shouldn't because it isn't meant to be.

    That said, +11 is high enough to justify some assholishness if someone doesn't know mechanics. But at least be honest with yourself about it.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Fidisko View Post
    Helo,

    Ive read many times that wow community is very toxic, but what does toxicity even mean?

    For me Toxic players are the ones that are blaming everyone for failing and ruining player experience on purpose. ( leaving groups without purpose, be mean, blaming everyone and just cry)

    Yesterday i went 2x Mythic +11, i did buy flask/food, have correct talents and know each boss and trash mechanics and i know my job not to fail the group.
    Because there are 4 more people who probably dont have all the time like me in the world and want to have things done. So its my responsibility for them as well to do as much as i can, not to fail.

    And for me this is common sense. Now my experience from yesterday is that ppl didnt know tactics at all at the Other side Manastorm fight, me as a Healer deffused all the bombs, soak 2 crystals and they didnt stack on the Aoe from Malificient and im told them after wipe that im doing everything yet they have clearly no idea what to do here. DPS left and the group blamed me that he did because of me, because why am i even writing something?

    its like are people really getting offended so easily? I did 150% job at the fight yet they did 50% so should i just be quiet and wipe?

    Today same, 2/5 people had no idea what to do at +11, when i ask them why not read jornal before making/joining a group, im blamed that im taking the game really seriously and just "chill bruh". Ok i was quiet we wiped 5 times at one boss due to same mistakes, then i left.

    For me, this is not toxicity but taking responsibily for your own actions and be responsible to the group members as well, and im not gonna carry someone else because he cant click dungeon journal and read 2 senteces. From my perspective they are toxic, they are ruining the group experience and blaming others attitude because they cannot admit they simply failed the boss,dungeon whatever and learn from it

    What is your opinion?

    Thanks
    It's pretty easy and generally more productive to be constructive instead of critical. Tell them what they are doing wrong, don't say, "You clearly have no idea what you're doing".

    Much of the toxicity in game starts from these little insults. I was just in a (pug) raid yesterday where the raid leader told me to go left, so I went left (something was off on the positioning and he was trying to adjust the group)... however he meant HIS left and not my left (I was tanking and facing opposite way from him). As I did this I asked where he meant and if he could give me a landmark so I knew where he wanted me to go, instead of doing that he started complaining that I must not know my right from my left, then afterwards said something to the effect of "I don't mean to insult people's education" but then went on to insult me and say I didn't know my right from my left.

    Such a toxic way to deal with a simple misunderstanding that could have been far more easily resolved by just not being a dick (btw, I called him an idiot and left the group). I mean, what is the person hoping to accomplish with that statement? They clearly don't think that I don't know my right from my left, they're just trying to make me look bad and seem like an internet tough guy.

    No one wants to play with someone who is calling them stupid, and a lot of maladjusted people playing this game mistake knowledge for intelligence and start insulting other people. It's annoying. It also comes from the inability of many players to realize that not everyone has the same perspective, particularly in pug.

    People at this point in the expansion just view the game differently. Some people watch videos, read guides, and try to be hyperefficient with their playtime, others just log in and play and learn by failing. Both are valid playstyles - you can't expect pug groups to share the same perspective as you, that's what organized guilds are for.

    Personally, I'm in the "learn by failing" camp - reading guides is pretty boring and I don't really like studying for a game, I mean isn't part of playing a game to wipe and fix it? That's fun for me. I don't flask for most m+ because I do a lot and I would end up broke if I did - I can't afford to buy 15 flasks a week. If it's one that I think will be close, and a milestone, then, yeah, I'll flask, but mostly, eh, it's not worth 1000 gold to do an extra 4% dps as a tank. I've mostly tanked but I healed de other side +4 on my alt, and I didn't pick up any bombs, I don't really know the mechanics to that fight yet because I haven't wiped yet, but I'll figure it out eventually, I'm not too worried. It's what, week 5, and there are about 30 mythic bosses. There are small things about some of them I don't yet know yet, but I'm not going to go watch videos or read guides, I'm going to go in there and learn by doing. I think studying videos or a guide for a dungeon is not really a fun way to spend my free time, and if it means I wipe a bit more, oh well - wiping and learning is more fun for me. You seem to feel differently. It's fine, we just shouldn't group together.
    Last edited by Scrod; 2021-01-05 at 04:38 AM.

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