Proposal for new loot changes

[Poppincaps]

So, it's clear from Ion's recent PCGamer interview that the team isn't happy with how loot is playing out in Shadowlands. The PVP gearing system is quite successful, but Mythic+ and Raids feel very unrewarding at the moment. I have a few suggestions for loot changes that should be implemented, hopefully in 9.1.

Mythic +

So I think Blizzard's struggle with M+ has always been that it drops unlimited amounts of loot. As a result, they've had to limit the loot it drops, despite +15s and higher being quite difficult. My suggestion would be that Mythic + drops would no longer scale with key level. A M0 would drop 184 loot and so would a +15. The main difference would be that higher M+ drops more "Valor Points," a new currency similar in function to Conquest Points. They'd be weekly capped with a catchup mechanic like Conquest so you could always catch up by grinding dungeons. Using this tier's item level as an example, at a base level they'd be item level 200 and you could buy any item from any dungeon with varying costs depending on the type of item it is (weapons would obviously be very expensive, wrists and rings would be cheap and obtainable in one week.) Then, based on your highest key completed for the dungeon that the item originally drops from, you can upgrade the item with anima or a new currency that they could add, since Anima can be kinda limited at times. So if you got an item that drops from Plaguefall, if you've done a +15 you can upgrade that item to 226. If you've only run a +4 Plaguefall then it'd be capped at 207 or something.

This avoids the tedium of grinding the same dungeon 20 times for one item and gives you goals to set for yourself. Plus, depending on your Great Vault choices you can change your plans accordingly.

Raiding

Raiding feels crazy unrewarding. As a personal anecdote, I killed 8 bosses one week and got 0 pieces of loot. The next week I killed 9 bosses and got 1 piece of loot that I traded to someone because I already had the item. Then, this past week I got another piece of loot that I traded away because it was a side grade and luckily someone traded me a piece of loot. So out of 3 weeks I got 1 piece of loot that was an upgrade for me, while killing the majority of the bosses.

So, to solve this I'd do 2 things: 1. Right now 3 pieces of loot drop on Mythic difficulty. I'd increase that to 4. That's still less than BfA mind you, but it would average out to people getting 2 pieces of loot on average per full clear. Up from 1.5. Either that, or implement back luck protection that guarantees that you get 1 piece of loot per full clear. I'd also add back 3 bonus rolls per week so you feel like you have a little more control over the loot you are getting.

Bonus

I think this would help matters as they currently stand but the above would do more to address to disatisfaction with loot. I'd add back in the option for Master Looter for Mythic difficult raids only. I don't think Blizzard would do this as I feel they are currently very opposed to ML, but as a team oriented player, if an item is an item level increase for me, but is actually a very minor dps increase, I'd like to either be able to trade it away or rather just have the raid be ML and pass on the item to someone who it might be a bigger upgrade for. I think this would be a mess in pugs, so I don't think it should be enabled in Heroic and Normal, but for the most part, guilds are the ones that participate in Mythic raids and I think that option should be permitted to them.


TLDR

Implement the PVP gearing system into Mythic +, increase average loot drops in raid by 1 and add bonus rolls back, and bring back Master Looter for Mythic Difficulty raids.

[Kaver]

So, it's clear from Ion's recent PCGamer interview that the team isn't happy with how loot is playing out in Shadowlands. The PVP gearing system is quite successful, but Mythic+ and Raids feel very unrewarding at the moment. I have a few suggestions for loot changes that should be implemented, hopefully in 9.1.

Mythic +

So I think Blizzard's struggle with M+ has always been that it drops unlimited amounts of loot. As a result, they've had to limit the loot it drops, despite +15s and higher being quite difficult. My suggestion would be that Mythic + drops would no longer scale with key level. A M0 would drop 184 loot and so would a +15. The main difference would be that higher M+ drops more "Valor Points," a new currency similar in function to Conquest Points. They'd be weekly capped with a catchup mechanic like Conquest so you could always catch up by grinding dungeons. Using this tier's item level as an example, at a base level they'd be item level 200 and you could buy any item from any dungeon with varying costs depending on the type of item it is (weapons would obviously be very expensive, wrists and rings would be cheap and obtainable in one week.) Then, based on your highest key completed for the dungeon that the item originally drops from, you can upgrade the item with anima or a new currency that they could add, since Anima can be kinda limited at times. So if you got an item that drops from Plaguefall, if you've done a +15 you can upgrade that item to 226. If you've only run a +4 Plaguefall then it'd be capped at 207 or something.

This avoids the tedium of grinding the same dungeon 20 times for one item and gives you goals to set for yourself. Plus, depending on your Great Vault choices you can change your plans accordingly.

Raiding

Raiding feels crazy unrewarding. As a personal anecdote, I killed 8 bosses one week and got 0 pieces of loot. The next week I killed 9 bosses and got 1 piece of loot that I traded to someone because I already had the item. Then, this past week I got another piece of loot that I traded away because it was a side grade and luckily someone traded me a piece of loot. So out of 3 weeks I got 1 piece of loot that was an upgrade for me, while killing the majority of the bosses.

So, to solve this I'd do 2 things: 1. Right now 3 pieces of loot drop on Mythic difficulty. I'd increase that to 4. That's still less than BfA mind you, but it would average out to people getting 2 pieces of loot on average per full clear. Up from 1.5. Either that, or implement back luck protection that guarantees that you get 1 piece of loot per full clear. I'd also add back 3 bonus rolls per week so you feel like you have a little more control over the loot you are getting.

Bonus

I think this would help matters as they currently stand but the above would do more to address to disatisfaction with loot. I'd add back in the option for Master Looter for Mythic difficult raids only. I don't think Blizzard would do this as I feel they are currently very opposed to ML, but as a team oriented player, if an item is an item level increase for me, but is actually a very minor dps increase, I'd like to either be able to trade it away or rather just have the raid be ML and pass on the item to someone who it might be a bigger upgrade for. I think this would be a mess in pugs, so I don't think it should be enabled in Heroic and Normal, but for the most part, guilds are the ones that participate in Mythic raids and I think that option should be permitted to them.


TLDR

Implement the PVP gearing system into Mythic +, increase average loot drops in raid by 1 and add bonus rolls back, and bring back Master Looter for Mythic Difficulty raids.

The M+ loot should simply work the exact same way as the PvP loot. And ranks should be gained by pushing keys.

[thunderdragon2]

imo raiding can simply be solved by bring back bonus rolls as for m+ im not so sure probably revert it back to the way it was in bfa 2 items if you fail 3 if u get it on time

[Hayduke]

For SL, reducing loot in M+ AND reducing ilevel of said loot seems overly oppressive. I think if they reverted one or the other, that would solve the issue.

Raid drops just need to be 4 per 20 man and I think that it would be fine.

[Nathanyel]

Ah, I recall when people hated upgrading with Valor Points in MoP, now they would love to have this system back.

As an addendum, I propose something which I said even back then: have higher difficulties drop already upgraded items (so, no change for M+ per se) but let people upgrade items with a currency - this would eliminate "hoping for my BiS trinket to drop over and over at increasingly higher iLvls".

Raiding feels crazy unrewarding. As a personal anecdote, I killed 8 bosses one week and got 0 pieces of loot. The next week I killed 9 bosses and got 1 piece of loot that I traded to someone because I already had the item. Then, this past week I got another piece of loot that I traded away because it was a side grade and luckily someone traded me a piece of loot. So out of 3 weeks I got 1 piece of loot that was an upgrade for me, while killing the majority of the bosses.

The main issue here seems to be that you got gear for slots you already have at that iLvl - and you obviously ignore the previous weeks during which you got those already equipped items. The better gear you get, the smaller the chance of getting a useful item (for you alone, trading offsets that) and while "more loot" does help, it will have steep diminishing returns as well.

I'd actually suggest working with the apparently returning tier sets here: Change tokens from only one slot to multiple:
Head & Shoulders (special prestige value, drop from later bosses)
Chest & Legs (along with the above, these are the biggest stat gains)
Cloak, Wrists, Hands, Feet (smaller stat gains and prestige, drop from early bosses, but might also drop from later bosses in addition to regular drops, to fill gaps)

This would mean exchanging tokens at vendors again, or with some UI trickery, right-clicking a token could open a selection window (basically only consuming the token once you finalize your choice)

[Toybox]

Doing all that on top of the Great Vault would be overkill. The GV is way too powerful in its current form.

[ellieg]

Loot is fine how it is. Its extremely easy and as long as you get 3ish options unlocked on the vault, you're extremely likely to get an upgrade every single week. Add on top of that the pvp gear, and you shld be getting ~ 2 guaranteed upgrades a week. If you're putting in a moderate amount of effort, you should be geared within a couple months.

If they increase loot at all, you're gonna hear ppl crying for 3 months about how nothing feels worth it anymore cause their gear is maxed out.

This isn't legion or BFA. Stop doing more than 10 M+ a week with the expectation of getting loot to drop. M+ loot sucks anyway and if you would do heroic raids, you'll replace it soon enough anyway.

[Toybox]

Loot is fine how it is. Its extremely easy and as long as you get 3ish options unlocked on the vault, you're extremely likely to get an upgrade every single week. Add on top of that the pvp gear, and you shld be getting ~ 2 guaranteed upgrades a week. If you're putting in a moderate amount of effort, you should be geared within a couple months.

If they increase loot at all, you're gonna hear ppl crying for 3 months about how nothing feels worth it anymore cause their gear is maxed out.

This isn't legion or BFA. Stop doing more than 10 M+ a week with the expectation of getting loot to drop. M+ loot sucks anyway and if you would do heroic raids, you'll replace it soon enough anyway.

I personally don't like this design. Waiting for that Tuesday/Wednesday reset for the dopamine hit instead of just getting gear directly as you do the content both decreases the fun in the short-term & increases the possibility of disappointment in the long term. I know if I get unlucky from the Great Vault that I've missed my single biggest chance of getting an upgrade any given week, and that feels ridiculous.

[FuxieDK]

The only thing that would make sense at this point is:
- Remove personal loot COMPLETELY
- Reimplement Master Loot
- Remove 2 hour loot trading.

[Calimon-ZJ]

I don't mind less drops per boss but I despise personal looting in raids. No coins + personal loot makes getting desired items like weapons or trinkets really annoying. If they did away with personal loot then I don't mind not having coin rolls each week.

[Dartz1979]

I get more gear through pvp than i do in dungeons/raids it's pretty much easiest way to get geared since most world quests arent gonna have gear with stats you need which brings me to my next subject i feel the reforging system needs to make a return for it should have never left to begin with.

[Argorwal]

For raiding at least, it definitely should be 4 drops per 20 people. It also scales so well with flex 10-30.

I would support ML available in mythic only, maybe even mythic only AND 80-100% guild group because early bosses tend to get pugged.

I’m not quite sure how to handle mythic+. I would love the focus to be on “do high keys of dungeons that relate to the item you wants source” concept the OP brings up, just not sure full currency is the best way.

For the current system though I think dungeons should drop 2 items always. Timing the key is only for raising/lowering the key level.