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  1. #181
    People forget how much hate was on the forums regarding Wotlk at that time... It looked like everyone hated it. And when MoP or better said, Pandas happened, people started remembering LK as a holy grail of expansions... The same was with MoP.

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    the same ulduar with yogg, mimiron, flame leviathan, ignis? lmao
    the same ulduar that had abysmal participation rates until toc?
    the same ulduar that people are clueless about in tw?

    couldn't be the same ulduar lmao
    Zoom on with your day and we'll get on with ours. We don't expect you to appreciate it anyway, it wasn't fast enough or filled with enough instant gratification for you.

  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by Belloc View Post
    1) Naxx 10 and 25 were fun. Yeah, sure, they were easy, and the loot was practically free, but... it was fun. That's it. And we also had Sarth (1,2&3d) and Malygos.
    Achievements were brand new and you bet your ass we went for them! You know how satisfying it was to finally get The Immortal?

    2) It was perfectly playable at release. My guild, at the time, wasn't heroic-capable in 25-man, but the normal fights were perfectly fine for even our lesser players. 10-man was even better, though, because we absolutely had a solid core 10 players. My server wasn't big, but we had plenty of guilds progressing through and clearing normal without issue in both sizes. You say that there was low participation, but that was absolutely not my experience. Maybe you were on a dead server?

    3) Talk shit about ToC. Try it. What you got? Here's what I got:
    The fights were unique. They did things that we hadn't seen before. Out of the 5 fights, there was really only one that was particularly boring, and that was the second boss. The first boss was good on normal and a nice challenge on heroic. The third boss was a PvP puzzle that, afaik, still stands as one of the most unique encounters in the game. The fourth boss hit players with the concept of bullet-hell and encouraged some innovating strategies. The fifth boss? I'm biased on the fifth boss, at least on heroic. Normal mode was whatever. For non-heroic players, it was fine, no complaints. But heroic was a raid-wide challenge. Add tanks had to have specific lower-level gear sets, heavy cooldown rotations required from a variety of raid members, resource conservation (the frost), pathing and positioning, and then an intentionally low-health war of attrition for the final phase.

    It. Was. Awesome.

    Oh, and no trash. No one likes trash and there was absolutely none of it. No one ever gives the raid the respect it deserves.
    The fights in TOC were unique ONCE. But in a serious guild you ran it 4 times a week (10n 10h 25n 25h) it got old fast.

  4. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    The same reason people put classic on a pedestal, or tbc - whatever expansion they started playing is "the best"
    I started playing in vanilla beta and I consider TBC the logical advancment of the game and WotLK still the superior of the 3. Mind you, I wouldn't want any of them back today. EVERY SINGLE iteration of WoW had it's major problems, not any version of it was ever without a major flaw. In TBC the length of attunements was off the charts and poisoned the raiding pool, vanilla had countless issues, from a disjointed mostly non-existent narrative to no real plan for endgame content for most of it and so did WotLK, as indeed it did have a really weak showing with a rehashed naxx and ToGC is to date probably the worst raid Blizzard has designed with the most wasted potential.

    From Cata onward alot of the game and it's design changed alot. While it started in WotLK, it left alot of the original stuff entirely behind. You are somewhat right that alot of people will sing the praises of their first/starting expansion though, as people tend to forget alot of the flaws of MoP as well these days. I personally had probably the most fun with Legion, as the massive class lore and feature dump during it's time was simply appealing to me, despite me hating AP and the legendary lottery and the game becoming significantly better during the later period when these ceased to matter.
    /tar Tinker-zealot /point /lol
    WoW:Shadowlands - Danuser's Divina Commedia?

  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Restricted? No, raiding back then was most accessible that has ever been. Because of 10 man and because of low difficulty bar.
    What what if you had 15 people who wanted to raid? Or 30? Or 40? Odds are 5 don't get to raid, more if the excess of the core 10-man group don't have the neccesary tanks or heals.
    The most difficult thing for people to do is objectively look at something they don't like and be able to accept that it is not bad, that other people like it, and if it was changed to the way they'd like it that other people would not like it and want it changed back. The second most is to receive something they didn't want or ask for and be grateful for it, not immediately demand what they wanted instead.

  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by Hinastorm View Post
    Your first point is lost on me, not sure how that is different group finder or no.

    Your second point has some merit. Personally, i'd rather be able to actually run leveling dungeons as opposed to now on classic, where you essentially can't. It's a fine tradeoff to me.
    If you could only run 2 dungeons maximum per hour, people would rush less knowing that they have to actually try and this mindless spamming and zergfesting of dungeons would perhaps stop. It's probably a really bad idea, but I'm not sure how else to solve the Dungeon Finder mentality. Still, I'd rather go for quality than quantity as it is now.
    "There is no end to education. It is not that you read a book, pass an examination, and finish with education. The whole of life, from the moment you are born to the moment you die, is a process of learning." by Jiddu Krishnamurti, Philosopher and Educator

  7. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    Ulduar wasn't widely done until people were overgearing it, i.e in toc gear.
    What? Everyone I knew on my Server back than was at LEAST on Mimiron when it came out, we were fighting Yogg and killed him a week or two later. Super casual guild as well.
    I actually remember folks complaining that ToC came out too early.
    Last edited by Exeunt; 2021-01-02 at 11:46 AM.

  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by Vampyrr View Post
    The fights in TOC were unique ONCE. But in a serious guild you ran it 4 times a week (10n 10h 25n 25h) it got old fast.
    Nowadays serious guilds run A LOT more than that and raids were good as ever.

    Let's be honest, Wotlk really was good BECAUSE it was easy. Because easy content got you max level gear. Not fully decked, but a few pieces.
    Also in Wotlk, your gear didn't matter THAT much, base max level characters were much stronger than they are now, and getting them fully geared didn't made their dps go up by 500%.

  9. #189
    The Insane DeltrusDisc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post

    Anyway the point isn't to change your minds, but to understand why you have such a hardon for a run-of-the-mill wow expansion.
    Outside of dual spec, nothing wotlk did was really amazing. I had fun, but I also had more fun in other expansions.
    Let me repeat myself: I prefer TBC to WotLK.

    Hell, I'm not sure, but MoP might actually be better...
    "For Teldrassil."
    Quote Originally Posted by mmocd061d7bab8 View Post
    yeh but lava is just very hot water

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaqthefat View Post
    ICC wasn't amazing lets be honest. The memory of ICC is carried hard by the Lich King fight which was an amazing fight, even though progression sucked due to the wipe limit.
    ICC was amazing, with many amazing fights, climatic battles, and cool loot, one of the first raids with tons of trinket like weapons. The pull limit was not new either, nor did it really effect too many cause it was only on the hardest content, and was removed later. It really only effected the tip top world first people. Most groups did not spend enough time raiding each week to get there. Then use up all the attempts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    Ulduar wasn't widely done until people were overgearing it, i.e in toc gear.
    Not even fucking close to true. The first boss was literally a free kill, the next 3 were hilariously easy. Then after that the next 2 were just slightly harder. A mostly geared naxx group could easily get up to the titan watchers. Then from there pick off some of the easier bosses like Freya with all trees dead.

  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinaa View Post
    Ulduar was great from week 2, what are you talking about? (Ulduar is the best raid Blizzard has ever made)
    you misspelled blackrock foundry, but sure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    ICC was amazing, with many amazing fights, climatic battles, and cool loot, one of the first raids with tons of trinket like weapons. The pull limit was not new either, nor did it really effect too many cause it was only on the hardest content, and was removed later. It really only effected the tip top world first people. Most groups did not spend enough time raiding each week to get there. Then use up all the attempts.

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    Not even fucking close to true. The first boss was literally a free kill, the next 3 were hilariously easy. Then after that the next 2 were just slightly harder. A mostly geared naxx group could easily get up to the titan watchers. Then from there pick off some of the easier bosses like Freya with all trees dead.
    in naxx gear? no sir.
    maybe 10man, but 10man raids don't count and never did.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Exeunt View Post
    What? Everyone I knew on my Server back than was at LEAST on Mimiron when it came out, we were fighting Yogg and killed him a week or two later. Super casual guild as well.
    I actually remember folks complaining that ToC came out too early.
    yes, toc was "too early" (cus people didn't finish ulduar by then)

  12. #192
    People love welfare.

    Individuals that play for prestige are a minority, very small slice of players.

    Hence welfare being beloved in those very popular instances. The game would fare better if it revolved more around welfare and lfr like the past has proven.

  13. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    People put wotlk on a pedestal which had


    2) Ulduar which wasn't playable to most people till ToC
    eh wut
    ulduar wasnt a massive challenge? if people couldnt do it then i honestly can only say get better or go back to ur lfr dungeons :s

  14. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by exochaft View Post
    Ah, the days when Feral druids were on the positive meme spectrum. While I generally focused on tanking in WotLK, I still had my arpen soft-cap set which wrecked face. Downsides of the time were that Feral hadn't been split into two specs yet, so any adjustments affected both the tanking and DPS aspect of Feral in ways that were a headache at the time. Regardless, it's one of my more favorite times for tanking/DPS as Feral.

    While WotLK did have some downsides that have influenced and bled over into problems that exist today, it was a different time and game back then. The re-release (or rather altered version) of Naxx was generally welcomed as an extreme minority of players got to raid it in vanilla, and the raiding population was probably expanding way more than it ever had at that point in WoW. Obsidium Sanctum was the first experiment of how tackling/avoiding bosses could drastically alter the raid experience, which really hasn't been done on outside of self-contained council fights. Ulduar is as iconic as you can get from the player perspective, with some very unique boss mechanics and fight alterations that haven't been seen since despite being quite cool. I was one of those people that liked ToC, even the attempt system despite frustrations when someone DC'd on a pull, as it was something different... especially that PvP fight, I still remember our first kill taking 11 minutes. ICC was just the culmination that lead to some pretty epic encounters at the time, as well as some frustrations at people who always sat in Defile or got knocked off the platform via traps on the last boss. I also enjoyed the Halion fight with the split phases and beams, despite it being sort of a filler raid. Of course, I'm coming from this as someone who got the server first kills of the hardest boss at the time, as sometimes the normal versions of the fights were a little meh compared to the harder versions. There were some really frustrating times, such as a hunter out of position ruining our first attempt at full-attempt no-death 25man ToC... but there were many really fun times to be had that outweighed the frustrating ones.

    Here's the thing: the fact that I can still vividly remember all the raids and content from that time says something about the impact it actually had on me as a player. One aspect that gets lost on some was that they forget how much of the game was non-mandatory even if you were a raider at the time, and the game had more breathing room for you to dabble in other aspects of the game, play alts, or just play another game alongside WoW. Since WotLK, I've felt that game keeps adding stuff to make you feel like you fall behind if you don't log in every day... and that's something that just wasn't there in WotLK. If you wanted to raid log, you could w/o negative consequences or gimping your progression. Honestly, that's one aspect of WoW that I miss the most: the feeling that it's okay to step away from the game because there isn't constant daily/weekly grinds. Personally, I feel that for the game's long-term health, designing the game to promote downtime and not needed to log in constantly would get a larger, consistent subscriber base... as right now the game can feel like a chore, something WotLK never felt like at all.

    Are there negatives to WotLK? Certain, as I alluded to before WotLK was the precursor to some pretty negative systems in the game that exist today. People have to keep in mind that this was a time where Blizz was trying new things constantly, and sometimes you come across good ideas... and sometimes you come across bad ones. Raid size/lockout changes came into being with ICC, group finder eventually came into the game, raids beginning to be designed around the assumption of boss mod addons, and so forth. The negative effects of some of these late-WotLK additions didn't get felt until expansions later, as systems that break down the server/community take time to take effect. The thing is I don't really blame WotLK for these systems, I blame later expansions and Blizz's decisions to keep in features that proved eventually to be negative in the long term. WotLK had many experients as I've already said, some good, some bad, but overall it was a very unique time and experience if you played through it.
    I can remember every boss i progged on.

    wod did raidlogging better but people complained

    *shrug*

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    Quote Originally Posted by tikcol View Post
    People love welfare.

    Individuals that play for prestige are a minority, very small slice of players.

    Hence welfare being beloved in those very popular instances. The game would fare better if it revolved more around welfare and lfr like the past has proven.
    this is a fair point. people love easy games

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    Quote Originally Posted by dafuq View Post
    eh wut
    ulduar wasnt a massive challenge? if people couldnt do it then i honestly can only say get better or go back to ur lfr dungeons :s
    there wasn't lfd in ulduar patch kekw

  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    the same ulduar that people are clueless about in tw?
    I too am shocked that players don't remember exactly how to do fights from 10 years ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stormbreed View Post
    Mexico is already part of the USA so is Canada
    Quote Originally Posted by Shandalar View Post
    Shadow deserves nothing, the same as Fire Mages.

  16. #196
    Quote Originally Posted by AwkwardSquirtle View Post
    I too am shocked that players don't remember exactly how to do fights from 10 years ago.
    The way people suck ulduar's dick on these forums I'm really shocked that they don't

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    Here's the thing: the fact that I can still vividly remember all the raids and content from that time says something about the impact it actually had on me as a player.
    quoted in my above reply from another poster


    so the playerbase both vividly remembers it... but can't remember it? interesting

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    But again, I'm in no way saying that wotlk was bad, I'm not saying I hate wotlk

    I'm saying wotlk had flaws like every other expansion and, like every other wow expansion is a 6-8/10

  17. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by unbound View Post
    Everything wasn't solely about raids for starters. 16 dungeons kept things more interesting.

    Furthermore, raids were a progression. You weren't just stuck with the current raid.

    A year from now, the only raid anyone will be doing (outside of grinding xmogs) will be whatever the latest raid is. So anyone who was on the fence about SL and decides to join in the year won't really experience the first or second raid because of catch up mechanics. Whereas if you joined Wrath 1 year in, you could find a guild and run the first raid as an actual challenge.

    I'm sure this is confusing to most modern WoW players who expect dungeon runs to take no more than 10 minutes, raids to be cleared in a couple of hours, and gear to be handed to them weekly for very little effort. But old WoW (Vanilla - Wrath at least) wasn't for that type of attitude.
    This is wrong on so many levels.

  18. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    What what if you had 15 people who wanted to raid? Or 30? Or 40? Odds are 5 don't get to raid, more if the excess of the core 10-man group don't have the neccesary tanks or heals.
    You always had more than 10 to raid 10. And always more than 25 to raid 25. Unless you wanted to raid every other week.

    The thing is 10s were vastly more popular for a reason. First it was much easier to assemble such amount of people and second you usually don't have more than 10 friends in wow. But blizzard wanted to dictate people how they should enjoy game and wanted us to get this "epic" feeling of having big group. Which is not epic at all. Just more logistics that are faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar more problematic than everything else.
    BfA > Wotlk > Cata > ... > SL > WoD ~ TBC > Vanilla > ................ ? .............. > Legion
    You said corruption was great system. Can't find it and proceeds to lie again.
    Legendaries were such a great system I had them all before blizz lifted softcap

  19. #199
    Brewmaster Nalam the Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    you couldn't do that in tbc.
    Which is why TBC was worse.

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  20. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    The way people suck ulduar's dick on these forums I'm really shocked that they don't
    This forum is a very small sample of the playerbase. Lots of players never did ulduar because they didn't play the game at the time. I started in MoP.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stormbreed View Post
    Mexico is already part of the USA so is Canada
    Quote Originally Posted by Shandalar View Post
    Shadow deserves nothing, the same as Fire Mages.

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