"So Glad We Bought This Warrior to our M+ Group!"

[lordzed83]

You couldn't be more wrong. Literally.

Hes LITERARY RIGHT as prot i wont touch andy dps warrior off the list cause every other option is better. Bring the class not the player is more real than ever.

[Charge me Doctor]

Said no one ever....

Literally happened to me today, when i mass-taunted a whole bunch of mobs and popped die be the sword, giving our tank a breathing window to drop necrotic

[Rinaul]

Yeah well, I already gave up on playing DPS. It's literally impossible to find groups at ilvl 205 so I'm just tanking and leveling a mage.

That's odd. I got into +9s at 195 last week as a dps work only an io of 400 /shrug

[Zylos]

Literally happened to me today, when i mass-taunted a whole bunch of mobs and popped die be the sword, giving our tank a breathing window to drop necrotic

this is honestly the most utility i have found as a warrior. When the tank is taking too much damage (or dies) having someone who can aoe taunt, and essentially bubble is pretty good. The group I run with we actually kind plan around having it. Also I've prevented tons of wipes or at least deaths with rallying cry use.

That said I've tried the whole throw a shield on and tank some shit for a few seconds, it doesn't work as mobs/bosses hit too hard and honestly blizz should get rid of shield block/slam and give us something else.

Most importantly though to OP's point, I think other classes have a much easier time getting in because your group NEEDS heroism/bloodlust (thanks drum nerf), needs a brez, and in a lot of cases needs offensive dispels, and warriors do none of these things. None of the niche things warrior is good at it is something a group NEEDS. Also melee is always a struggle compared to ranged dps when it comes to avoiding mechanics.

[Matthias]

this is honestly the most utility i have found as a warrior. When the tank is taking too much damage (or dies) having someone who can aoe taunt, and essentially bubble is pretty good. The group I run with we actually kind plan around having it. Also I've prevented tons of wipes or at least deaths with rallying cry use.

That said I've tried the whole throw a shield on and tank some shit for a few seconds, it doesn't work as mobs/bosses hit too hard and honestly blizz should get rid of shield block/slam and give us something else.

Most importantly though to OP's point, I think other classes have a much easier time getting in because your group NEEDS heroism/bloodlust (thanks drum nerf), needs a brez, and in a lot of cases needs offensive dispels, and warriors do none of these things. None of the niche things warrior is good at it is something a group NEEDS. Also melee is always a struggle compared to ranged dps when it comes to avoiding mechanics.

Yea I mentioned that Warrior DPS might make the best Off Tank (Shaman Elemental is a real hero to though). Not sure why Drums were nerfed one would always prefer a an actually class that can Lust/Hero but if not taking a 5% hit to the buff was fine.

[Imp88]

For what it's worth, my arms friend does very respectable damage in mythics, usually leading dps. We have grouped with most dps now and he's always doing really well.. every pull he is putting out high dps. This is only in the +4-5 range .. but I have yet to see what is wrong with arms dps. He is setup for pvp too with venthyr and unhinged leggo.

[nocturnus]

For what it's worth, my arms friend does very respectable damage in mythics, usually leading dps. We have grouped with most dps now and he's always doing really well.. every pull he is putting out high dps. This is only in the +4-5 range .. but I have yet to see what is wrong with arms dps. He is setup for pvp too with venthyr and unhinged leggo.

So the question is, what is "respectable damage"? Because I'm doing ~4k dps on single target and between 6 and 10k dps on big pulls (depending on cooldowns) and while that might seem respectable, it's not. It's utter shit.

Same ilvl mages, hunters, moonkins, etc. are pushing 6k dps on single target and consistently doing 10k dps on trash; small or big pulls.

So again, why would anyone, anyone, invite a dps warrior when there are so many better options? As a tank, I don't.

[OokOok]

Said no one ever....

I'm actually baffled at how I never noticed a DPS Warriors utter lack of utility throughout Legion and BFA but it's coming full to a head in Shadowlands.

Legion trash was rudamentary your DPS was what people cared about (And DPS Warriors could Shockwave). BFA got a bit more tricky, keep in mind I only really played the last season, but people just needed to interrupt, and the tank could take care of most of that. A lot of mobs immunie to CC in SL.

Shadowlands really encourages one to use their toolkit at it's limit, and I think it's awesome as you can take stock of your parties abilities and approach the same dungeon differently.....but Warriors just don't do anything. Rallying Cry and Battle Shout both which are hard to notice.

• Shaman, Hunters and Mages are critical for Bloodlust/Heroism. They also bring in Dispell affects. Warrior burst also seems to inferior in comparision to a Mages Combust. (Dont get me started on the overall utility of Hunters and Mages entirely)
• Druids, Warlocks and DKs in combat ress. Death Grip is clutch, Lock cookies are life, Lock Portals can be used to finesse a few things. Druids can also dispell enrage.

When we get to classes that don't bring the essentials (Lust/Ress):

• Rogues can Shroud for skips. Priest can use Soothe for this on some pulls.
• Monks always impress me with Ring of Peace.
• A Ret Paladin that will actually Blessing of Sacrifice the tank or BoP a party member.

Also some of those classes can ress if the healer goes down to prevent loss of time. Warriors could really have their Banners return from MoP or better yet Mass Spell Reflection. Warriors are currently strong in PvP atm so this could be a balancing Nightmare. With the introduction of M+ I do think Blizzard should consider adding a 4th column of talents to all classes perhaps Warriors could spec into a War Banner that allows them to lust if needed but at the cost of the needed Defensive Stance for PvP.

Warrior did have utility in Legion, they had an AOE stun. Similar to DH. They also had really solid AOE and ST dmg. They were literally a DH in BFA , but Blizzard took away their aoe stun and gave it to prot.

- - - Updated - - -

All pure DPS classes should have bloodlust baseline so that the "bring bloodlust " discrimination becomes moot.

DPS warriors need some defining group/raid ability on par with CC abilities. Maybe a 10% , 15 sec damage buff, a sort of mini bloodlust ?

The fact their stun is locked behind a talent is also odd.

They did, it's called drums. They're cheap

[leorana]

Omedon is absolutely right, this is not pug-friendly content, for pugs are subject to meta mentality, and that will make life hard for you - even if your Warrior is more than capable of tackling the content.

The exceptions that posted in this thread (lol I pugged to +13 lololol) just confirm the rule.

Imho, they should just add in the option to que for M+, like layers in torghast. Maybe make some rules you can not que for a higher layer on each specific dungeon unless you've completed the previous layer/difficulty. Players who want to form their own groups, or hand pick their roaster still can, whilst allowing capable players to overcome community bias exclusion.

[Cracked]

I actually sort of like inviting warrior dps to M+ just because it's hard to suck at dps warrior. Many other classes random idiots in LFG won't even know how to play their class. Warrior though is like the beginner easymode class, so it's fairly consistent .

[Anbokr]

Warrior utility was actually good in Legion. Since they removed shockwave from Fury/Arms at the end of Legion, warrior has been fairly useless in M+ relative to other specs unless our damage is overtuned. I say this as someone that regularly runs 13-15 keys with friends, but it's hard not to feel like you're holding them back while they play fotm specs.

Still such a baffling and unecessary decision. All warrior specs should have access to shockwave.

[Tiwack]

I've been pugging m+ since ever.. Most often than not people with this kind of argument are the kind of people that can't even pull their own weight, end up with low scores and then blame the system.

Understand you're speaking to players that have a life, missed the initial race out of the gates and are now stuck pugging with idiots at low keys and barred from getting into higher keys.

[Jinpachi]

Don't PUG M+. That's the underlying message of handing a single player path to every customer. Blizzard doesn't have to and can't make the community accept you into community-curated groups. Their response to that is the very busy and fulfilling-to-reasonable-players covenant campaigns. I'm composing an entire thread about this in the background, but seeing this thread I had to throw this in here.

Take a step back, look at the bigger picture, set your goals accordingly. If you don't have your own 5-man team or guild that does this content among friends, M+ isn't your content. I mean you can try to shoehorn yourself there, of course you can try, but the wall of the community is not something devs can control. That's why the anima-powered covenant game exists.

This. Stop trying to get others to bend to your will. Either do what you gotta do to be good enough to get accepted to pugs, find your own m+ squad, or stop trying. At some point you have to lose the "what I want" mindset and work within the constraints of the game/community.

[Omedon]

Imho, they should just add in the option to que for M+, like layers in torghast. Maybe make some rules you can not que for a higher layer on each specific dungeon unless you've completed the previous layer/difficulty. Players who want to form their own groups, or hand pick their roaster still can, whilst allowing capable players to overcome community bias exclusion.

I think the reason they didn't allow this from the get go still stands. The insane variables of scaling affixes are beyond a state where Blizz can reasonably curate an approachable or objectively fair experience, and that is the line where they *have to* be hands off. This is why nothing remotely mandatory-feeling in the way of access will ever require M+: it's the most optional of optional modes, and can't be tamed. It's intended to be a challenge that you approach with the kind of friends that can laugh off a wipe as they test their limits, or are on the exact same, formally agreed upon page to pursue competitive ambition.

As I've said, this isn't casual content.

[Jinpachi]

Understand you're speaking to players that have a life, missed the initial race out of the gates and are now stuck pugging with idiots at low keys and barred from getting into higher keys.

I guess they shouldn't be complaining then.

[Demsi]

Isn't spear of bastion pretty good in M+? I can imagine it being pretty good to have on Necrotic week

[MrKnubbles]

I've been saying for a while that Warriors need banners back. They offer very little utility compared to any other class. Battle Shout isn't enough and Rallying Cry is a joke.

[Heshx]

What happened to pick the player not the class? I dunno. I main a warrior. Will prot or dps, whatever. I personally don’t care to do super keys as my time is limited.

Nevertheless, warriors have HAD better utility and brought more to a group. Now it seems they are lacking. That’s a shame. It has never made sense to me why blizzard just removes abilities from our classes. Sucks most of the time, and it usually causes problems such as this for warrior.

[Bigbazz]

What happened to pick the player not the class? I dunno. I main a warrior. Will prot or dps, whatever. I personally don’t care to do super keys as my time is limited.

Nevertheless, warriors have HAD better utility and brought more to a group. Now it seems they are lacking. That’s a shame. It has never made sense to me why blizzard just removes abilities from our classes. Sucks most of the time, and it usually causes problems such as this for warrior.

Bring the player not the class existed in a time when content was easier and you couldn't group across servers. It's also dependent on classes having comparable strengths and weaknesses, which they do not in Shadowlands. It's not a new problem either if you look back to TBC where CC classes (rogue, mage, hunter, warlock) were highly desired over hybrids for dungeons, except now the content is way harder.

It's funny because "bring the player not the class" was introduced after TBC as their motto, but at the end of TBC the class balance was really quite good in PVE, but it only took the lack of being able to press Polymorph to make it harder for you to be invited, and then we had WOTLK where other classes got CC by which point they didn't need it as tanks turned into literal gods overnight.

[Heshx]

Bring the player not the class existed in a time when content was easier and you couldn't group across servers. It's also dependent on classes having comparable strengths and weaknesses, which they do not in Shadowlands. It's not a new problem either if you look back to TBC where CC classes (rogue, mage, hunter, warlock) were highly desired over hybrids for dungeons, except now the content is way harder.

It's funny because "bring the player not the class" was introduced after TBC as their motto, but at the end of TBC the class balance was really quite good in PVE, but it only took the lack of being able to press Polymorph to make it harder for you to be invited, and then we had WOTLK where other classes got CC by which point they didn't need it as tanks turned into literal gods overnight.

Right I think you get the point. It was a motto with good intentions and the right idea, although homogenization isn’t something I’m 100% for, I still think utility is a good thing for all classes to have.

Why this dev team decides to zigzag so often with their approach is beyond me.