"So Glad We Bought This Warrior to our M+ Group!"

[Shaetha]

I've been pugging m+ since ever.. Most often than not people with this kind of argument are the kind of people that can't even pull their own weight, end up with low scores and then blame the system.

if the content isn't matchmade it's not made for PuGs. You can do it with a PuG by over gearing it, but it's not the design intention.

[tikcol]

if the content isn't matchmade it's not made for PuGs. You can do it with a PuG by over gearing it, but it's not the design intention.

Do you honestly believe people doing the keys that award the best gear consistently aren't mostly pugging them? lol

If we're talking about people doing higher keys than +10 or +15 when they increase gear tables than that's another matter

[neescher]

if the content isn't matchmade it's not made for PuGs. You can do it with a PuG by over gearing it, but it's not the design intention.

You can easily pug keys without overgearing it. People have been doing it back when the season startet and certainly nobody was overgeared then...

[Master Guns]

I group with DPS warriors in 9-10 keys and they're usually top DPS.

[tehealadin]

I have to say, I am loving arms right now. Not amazingly geared, 198, not doing uber high keys, my highest is a +7, but I am certainly holding my own, I am finding the people who beat me by quite a bit are also 15+ ilvls higher than me. There is a fairly short period of time between cooldowns, making for fairly consistent high aoe damage on trash, single target is decent, more strong at the start and end, but still good.

[nocturnus]

I have to say, I am loving arms right now. Not amazingly geared, 198, not doing uber high keys, my highest is a +7, but I am certainly holding my own, I am finding the people who beat me by quite a bit are also 15+ ilvls higher than me. There is a fairly short period of time between cooldowns, making for fairly consistent high aoe damage on trash, single target is decent, more strong at the start and end, but still good.

Mate, I like arms as well, but if you are topping dps as arms, the people you're playing with, aren't very good at their class; arms is quite literally bottom dps. That said, if you can find groups (which in my experience generally is almost impossible as a dps warrior) go for it. It's sure way more fun than fury.

While fury has good cleave, you get wrecked by anyone else on single target.

All in all, warriors aren't great right now and I fear it will remain like that.

[tehealadin]

Mate, I like arms as well, but if you are topping dps as arms, the people you're playing with, aren't very good at their class; arms is quite literally bottom dps. That said, if you can find groups (which in my experience generally is almost impossible as a dps warrior) go for it. It's sure way more fun than fury.

While fury has good cleave, you get wrecked by anyone else on single target.

All in all, warriors aren't great right now and I fear it will remain like that.

I think it is more the key levels I am playing (or rather a mix). Pushing up the ilvl some more (not hugely), but there isn't much of an increase in dps. Usually my overall dps would be between 3-4k, which I know isn't huge, but on lower keys (2-6) it was sufficient, going beyond that now it is lagging behind. Realising now that I won't be doing many +10, never mind +15, unless it is my key and people are still willing, which I doubt.

Which is a bit of a pain, I do find it really fun.

[Swnem]

Warriors dps does have a lot of burst though. That is important utility.
The only problem i see is the agro. Few tanks can keep it against a good warrior which makes it more difficult to apreciate.
But, having a big burst for something like pride or a dangerous pack or priority mob is very useful. Not every class has big burst on demand.

Btw piercing howl is also good utility for weeks such as this with ghosts. Also helps the tank kite.

There are things to like about warriors. But, it depends on your tank and your comp to bring it out.

[nocturnus]

Warriors dps does have a lot of burst though. That is important utility.
The only problem i see is the agro. Few tanks can keep it against a good warrior which makes it more difficult to apreciate.
But, having a big burst for something like pride or a dangerous pack or priority mob is very useful. Not every class has big burst on demand.

Btw piercing howl is also good utility for weeks such as this with ghosts. Also helps the tank kite.

There are things to like about warriors. But, it depends on your tank and your comp to bring it out.

No one cares about the ghosts mate. Good groups basicslly ignore them because they despawn anyway. Look, I’m a glass half full kinda guy, but at the moment there’s literally no reason to bring a warrior to your group. Yes, fury’s cleave is good. But for every fury warrior there are 10 moonkins, mages, monks, hunters, dks, etc. Which are all better at basically everything we do, completely annihilate us in ST and have a TON more utility.

Quite frankly, there is no reason to bring warriors which is why hardly anyone does

[Swnem]

No one cares about the ghosts mate. Good groups basicslly ignore them because they despawn anyway. Look, I’m a glass half full kinda guy, but at the moment there’s literally no reason to bring a warrior to your group. Yes, fury’s cleave is good. But for every fury warrior there are 10 moonkins, mages, monks, hunters, dks, etc. Which are all better at basically everything we do, completely annihilate us in ST and have a TON more utility.

Quite frankly, there is no reason to bring warriors which is why hardly anyone does

I mean... this depends on what your objectives are.

There is only room for 5 classes in mythic+. If you are not one of the meta specs, you will struggle to get pug groups. This is not a thing exclusive to warrior.
Also, of course, if you are pushing high end keys, the type of damage and utility becomes even more cutthroat.

The question to me is whether a warrior has the damage and utility to complete 15's. I think we do. You need to get a pre-made group for sure or a group that doesn't care about meta.
Also, those ghosts do need to be slowed unless you are running a top end key and are moving that fast, which is a very different experience. If that is what you want to do, i'm sorry but you are gonna have to roll the meta specs. That is why i say it depends on objectives. If you want to be meta, you gotta roll meta.
If you want to do mythic+ with a pre-made group, there is nothing stopping you.

Also, keep in mind that keymaster is account wide. You don't have to complete it on your warrior to have it.

[Bigbazz]

Lots of situations where you need to kill or at least pay attention to spiteful, like Theater of Pain platforms. As for Warriors doing 15's though, the difficulty compared to available ilvl/renown is trivial, there have been Warriors doing 20+ keys for ages. If you're trying to argue that Warriors are bad or somehow hard-done by at 15 keys you're wrong, people will look for mages and boomkins for sure but the first thing they are looking at is your RIO and then your Ilvl.

Warrior has good strengths in sustained/1min burst AOE even if it doesn't compete with other classes on the biggest AOE pulls it does decent over the course of a dungeon, Warrior single target is also weak due to low burst but again it catches up over a longer fight, and Fury is super tanky making it easy to survive even without a healer in a lot of scenarios. It's not a crippled class anymore, it's just not an MDI or leaderboard pushing class.

Keymaster at this point is trivial, it was trivial when I did it too.

[nocturnus]

I mean... this depends on what your objectives are.

There is only room for 5 classes in mythic+. If you are not one of the meta specs, you will struggle to get pug groups. This is not a thing exclusive to warrior.
Also, of course, if you are pushing high end keys, the type of damage and utility becomes even more cutthroat.

The question to me is whether a warrior has the damage and utility to complete 15's. I think we do. You need to get a pre-made group for sure or a group that doesn't care about meta.
Also, those ghosts do need to be slowed unless you are running a top end key and are moving that fast, which is a very different experience. If that is what you want to do, i'm sorry but you are gonna have to roll the meta specs. That is why i say it depends on objectives. If you want to be meta, you gotta roll meta.
If you want to do mythic+ with a pre-made group, there is nothing stopping you.

Also, keep in mind that keymaster is account wide. You don't have to complete it on your warrior to have it.

There are situations where you have to deal with spitefuls, but generally you just out-pace them.

I'm not saying we can't do 15s, or whatever. I'm saying we're in a bad spot - which we are. We do average aoe dps and below average single target dps. Let's not even speak about arms, which is literally at the bottom in all pve content available.

I don't really care about 15s or generally about "competitive" pve. But I do care about the fact that I don't get invited on my 217 warrior but get insta-invites on my 200 alt. You say meta, I say huge imbalance. Imbalance that has existed from the start of SL and has yet to be fixed.

Blizzard said it was about turning knobs, right? Well, let them fucking turn those knobs; we don't need another 6 months to pin-point the problems.

[tehealadin]

What would you say were the things that need fixing on warriors, especially arms? Just straight up buffs to damage % of abilities? More rage generation would be nice, the starvation can be brutal at times. How about utility? We have an interrupt, we have a stun (at least if you talent for it), the fear shout can potentially be an aoe interrupt (albeit potentially risky in certain situations), can hamstring for slow and boost max hp for a short period of time. I suppose survivability of arms can be an issue, especially with regards to rage starvation.

[KFPE]

Yeah well, I already gave up on playing DPS. It's literally impossible to find groups at ilvl 205 so I'm just tanking and leveling a mage.

Soooooo wrong. Sorry - not sorry.

[nocturnus]

Soooooo wrong. Sorry - not sorry.

18-04-21

Are you always this slow?

[KFPE]

18-04-21

Are you always this slow?

Always late to the party, yes.

[germanfridris]

Interesting statement. The "skill" this game has always required (PvE) is the skill of combining knowledge and execution, that hasn't ever changed throughout it's life course.

[Breccia]

Well, a lot's happened since the last post. Let's see how Warriors are shaping up?





Not very well. That top graph is Boss DPS the week of May 3, Mythic level. As you can see, the average Rogue (any spec) outperforms a good Warrior (any spec). The second graph is all DPS all targets, and things are a lot more even...but Warriors are still in the bottom tier.

Granted, I did check Heroic raid DPS, and Warriors are going better. Middle of the pack in a much more even field.

But let's talk about the thread topic. How are Warriors doing in M+?

Warcraft Logs uses something called standard normalized scores. And...it's not ideal. Arms are 5th last. Fury is better than average, but not top ten, either. That's all dungeons, all keystone levels, last two weeks.

I looked at M+10 specifically, and Warriors were doing okay there -- Arms and Fury were both above average!

Then I looked at M+15 aaaaaaaaaand Arms was bottom five again. Fury was still doing okay.

Then I looked at M+20 and Arms was second worst. Fury was still doing okay.

For years I've been under the impression that Fury was more stat-based and would continue to scale through the xpac, any xpac, and Arms would not. This certainly has seemed to be the case in the last few.

So it's not as bleak as the thread started, but it's not great, either. Form follows function, and Arms and Prot are underrepresented for a reason.

[neescher]

Warcraft Logs uses something called standard normalized scores. And...it's not ideal. Arms are 5th last. Fury is better than average, but not top ten, either. That's all dungeons, all keystone levels, last two weeks.

I looked at M+10 specifically, and Warriors were doing okay there -- Arms and Fury were both above average!

Then I looked at M+15 aaaaaaaaaand Arms was bottom five again. Fury was still doing okay.

Then I looked at M+20 and Arms was second worst. Fury was still doing okay.

I wouldn't really use warcraftlogs as a source for m+, many people aren't logging m+.



Arms is a bit on the weak side, fury is doing fine in m+. It's not as busted as sv/destro, but it's very solid and the battle shout can definitely help boost the dps of your monk/hunter/rogue even further.

The biggest problem is not the balancing. It's the pug community. There are many pugs who only look at the top comps and only invite top specs. The funny thing is, specs like sv and destro aren't that far ahead for your average pug. I've been in pugs who only want "destro as the last spot, because it's blasting", and then proceed to do "normal" pulls, ie. 1-3 trash groups at once. If you only pull 8 mobs anyway, you could just as well invite a warrior for pretty much similar dps.

If you want to progress m+ as off-meta dps classes (ie. play keys to actually improve your score, not farm keys 3-4 levels below your maximum), you have to create your own group. Yeah sure, you might not need your own key for rio or loot, but good luck getting invited to a +20 as an off-meta spec if you're below 3.2k.

I've recently played my (mm) hunter from pretty much nothing (~1k ish) to 3k, and my fury from nothing to +15s (still low score because it's still the first id, got no tyrannical keys yet), and you just don't get invited. Just create a group, play your own key, and I usually had a tank and healer within 10 minutes. You might not get 3k's for your +15 so you might not get carried, but I've had no problem in most keys.

[hulkgor]

How much did he cost?