Page 1 of 5
1
2
3
... LastLast
  1. #1
    Legendary! Logwyn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Dagobah
    Posts
    6,296

    Scotland will they vote for Indepedence?

    Will Brexit make the idea of Scottish independence a reality now?

    What do you think?

  2. #2
    the power to call a referendum is in Westminster in the hands of a Tory majority so no.

    unless some major shenanigans take place

  3. #3
    Warchief
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Dual US/Canada
    Posts
    2,108
    Quote Originally Posted by jonnysensible View Post
    the power to call a referendum is in Westminster in the hands of a Tory majority so no.

    unless some major shenanigans take place
    I think refusing to allow a referendum would be one of the worst ideas imaginable, given how much weight the Tories put on the Brexit one...

    That being said, I think this would be a bad time for Scotland to try. They are out of the EU at this point, calling a referendum won't instantly get them back in, they're going to have to deal with the new Brexit reality for a bit. People need some time, time to mentally recover from the fatigue of Brexit, and to recover from Covid once that recovery starts. At this point, Scotland is best off just letting things lie and see what the actual impacts of the deal that Britain and the EU worked out are. If it's bad, then the people wanting independence can point to the problems as proof that Britain is hurting them. If it's good, then Scotland leaving might just make everything worse for everybody. Right now, the general feel all around seems to be 'it isn't as good as we wanted, but it's better than we feared'.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by jonnysensible View Post
    the power to call a referendum is in Westminster in the hands of a Tory majority so no.

    unless some major shenanigans take place
    That would make the Brexit supporters quite the hypocrites.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  5. #5
    The Insane Masark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    17,496
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    That would make the Brexit supporters quite the hypocrites.
    Utterly shocking.

    Warning : Above post may contain snark and/or sarcasm. Try reparsing with the /s argument before replying.
    What the world has learned is that America is never more than one election away from losing its goddamned mind
    Quote Originally Posted by Howard Tayler
    Political conservatism is just atavism with extra syllables and a necktie.
    Me on Elite : Dangerous | My WoW characters

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    That would make the Brexit supporters quite the hypocrites.
    Wait, you mean they're not? *fake gasp*

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynarii View Post
    I think refusing to allow a referendum would be one of the worst ideas imaginable, given how much weight the Tories put on the Brexit one...
    I would like to introduce you to Hypocrisy.

    That being said, I think this would be a bad time for Scotland to try. They are out of the EU at this point, calling a referendum won't instantly get them back in, they're going to have to deal with the new Brexit reality for a bit. People need some time, time to mentally recover from the fatigue of Brexit, and to recover from Covid once that recovery starts. At this point, Scotland is best off just letting things lie and see what the actual impacts of the deal that Britain and the EU worked out are. If it's bad, then the people wanting independence can point to the problems as proof that Britain is hurting them. If it's good, then Scotland leaving might just make everything worse for everybody. Right now, the general feel all around seems to be 'it isn't as good as we wanted, but it's better than we feared'.
    It's a bit more complicated than that really. I don't think there will be a referendum in the immediate future, but I think one is almost inevitable before the next general elections.

    Scotland is in a really nasty pickle. Politically they never wanted to leave the EU. They also feel cheated as the main argument for staying the UK in the first place was that it was the only way for Scotland to remain in the EU. Economically they actually trade more with the EU than they trade with the rest of the UK as weird as that is. They also got shafted in the Brexit negotiations as the Tories basically ignored everything Scotland wanted.

    Then there's the issue with the various double standards that apply to other majority remain voting areas like Northern Ireland and Gibraltar, which both got a slew of technical exceptions which allow them to retain much closer ties to the EU and freedom of travel.

    So the next thing that will happen will be a whole lot of rumbling about Scotland possibly being allowed to either negotiate Northern Ireland style agreements with the EU or being allowed to join the Schengen area (possibly putting an internal border on the island of Great Britain, maybe we could call it the Brexit Wall, or Boris' Wall).
    Quote Originally Posted by Orlong View Post
    It doesnt destroy the land to bury styrofoam 25 feet below the ground
    Today Obama once again kneeled at the altar of environmental naziism and hurt this once great country. He has now banned all drilling in the Atlantic Ocean

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    That would make the Brexit supporters quite the hypocrites.
    They had a referendum. The Scottish said no to the idea back then.

    Realistically though the reason no government in London is ever really going to accept holding any referendum anytime soon is that it's widely held that David Cameron inflicted one of the greatest political disasters in modern British political history by holding the referendums that he did. He won on the Scottish one sure but he lost massively in the Brexit one: His job, his legacy, his standing in the eyes of the British people.

    No one wants to be the guy that destroys the United Kingdom.
    "Life is one long series of problems to solve. The more you solve, the better a man you become.... Tribulations spawn in life and over and over again we must stand our ground and face them."

    Retired <Dreamstate> Gehennas

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by CostinR View Post
    They had a referendum. The Scottish said no to the idea back then.
    How long do people have to wait before they can vote on something again, according to you?

    1 year? 2 years? 4 years? 100 years?
    - The One and Only, the Legendary, the Mighty - You might recognize me from the forum signatures of lesser mortals obsessed with me. -
    Vexing little man-babies and normies on the internet since before you were born.

  10. #10
    Over 9000! Graeham's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Scotland
    Posts
    9,878
    I'd much prefer to see Scotland forge closer ties with the rest of the UK.

  11. #11
    Merely a Setback JohnBrown1917's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Обединени социалистически щати на Америка
    Posts
    27,148
    Quote Originally Posted by CostinR View Post
    They had a referendum. The Scottish said no to the idea back then.

    Realistically though the reason no government in London is ever really going to accept holding any referendum anytime soon is that it's widely held that David Cameron inflicted one of the greatest political disasters in modern British political history by holding the referendums that he did. He won on the Scottish one sure but he lost massively in the Brexit one: His job, his legacy, his standing in the eyes of the British people.

    No one wants to be the guy that destroys the United Kingdom.
    That one was held when the Scots though they would stay in the EU.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Graeham View Post
    I'd much prefer to see Scotland forge closer ties with the rest of the UK.
    The tories should have thought of that before ignoring everything Scotland wants.
    Quote Originally Posted by Milchshake View Post
    it’s mostly a syndicalist fantasy that “the workers” are going to rise up, which is disconnected from the fact that “the workers” are your racist uncle and jerk co-workers who you don’t like.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    The election has passed and 58 million working class Americans stood up and proved that they are in fact your racist uncle and jerk co-workers.
    They really can't help but show disdain for the working class.

  12. #12
    I think any refusal to allow a referendum would blow up in the UK governments face. I was speaking to a colleague about this, we were both of the opinion that such a move would likely be a catalyst to get people onto the streets. His argument was that he wants the right to say no. I suspect there would be enough people who would be enraged by any blockage. Whether or not the independence side would win is another argument. I am not sure how any vote would go. I am also wary about voting angrily, making any rash decisions. I voted to remain (in both referendums), but on a second I would be unsure how to vote.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gelannerai View Post


    Remember, legally no one sane takes Tucker Carlson seriously.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by CostinR View Post
    They had a referendum. The Scottish said no to the idea back then.

    Realistically though the reason no government in London is ever really going to accept holding any referendum anytime soon is that it's widely held that David Cameron inflicted one of the greatest political disasters in modern British political history by holding the referendums that he did. He won on the Scottish one sure but he lost massively in the Brexit one: His job, his legacy, his standing in the eyes of the British people.

    No one wants to be the guy that destroys the United Kingdom.
    They can have another referendum, good for them.

    The Scottish were promised things, and the UK did not deliver.

    I look forward to their hypocrisy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  14. #14
    Over 9000! Graeham's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Scotland
    Posts
    9,878
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBrown1917 View Post
    The tories should have thought of that before ignoring everything Scotland wants.
    The Tories aren't going to be in power forever.

  15. #15
    Best of luck to the Scots.
    Isn't one of the main issues the fact that even if Scotland gains independance they won't be able to join the EU as seperate country due to Spains issue with the Catalan region. Might have just been bullshit to keep the Scots in line when they had their vote last time.
    My country is also now starting to have a 'serious' independant movement but let's face it Scotland is at least 50x more prepared for independance than Wales

  16. #16
    Merely a Setback JohnBrown1917's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Обединени социалистически щати на Америка
    Posts
    27,148
    Quote Originally Posted by Graeham View Post
    The Tories aren't going to be in power forever.
    Does not change what brexit did.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Attackrabbit View Post
    Best of luck to the Scots.
    Isn't one of the main issues the fact that even if Scotland gains independance they won't be able to join the EU as seperate country due to Spains issue with the Catalan region. Might have just been bullshit to keep the Scots in line when they had their vote last time.
    My country is also now starting to have a 'serious' independant movement but let's face it Scotland is at least 50x more prepared for independance than Wales
    If Scotland leaves on good terms, Spain wont bea issue.
    Quote Originally Posted by Milchshake View Post
    it’s mostly a syndicalist fantasy that “the workers” are going to rise up, which is disconnected from the fact that “the workers” are your racist uncle and jerk co-workers who you don’t like.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    The election has passed and 58 million working class Americans stood up and proved that they are in fact your racist uncle and jerk co-workers.
    They really can't help but show disdain for the working class.

  17. #17
    Over 9000! Graeham's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Scotland
    Posts
    9,878
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBrown1917 View Post
    Does not change what brexit did.
    Well, Brexit is a complicated issue in itself. Personally I would have been in favour of pushing for reform from within, though neither side seemed to want to be honest about the perks, drawbacks and most importantly the impact of both on the 'everyman'.

    Even now, on both sides the issue seems to be exploited for political point scoring from those who are already far removed from regular folk.
    Last edited by Graeham; 2021-01-02 at 06:05 PM.

  18. #18
    The Undying cubby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    the Quiet Room
    Posts
    31,098
    Quote Originally Posted by Logwyn View Post
    Will Brexit make the idea of Scottish independence a reality now?

    What do you think?
    I sure hope so - they don't deserve to go down with the Brexit Ship.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by CostinR View Post
    They had a referendum. The Scottish said no to the idea back then.

    Realistically though the reason no government in London is ever really going to accept holding any referendum anytime soon is that it's widely held that David Cameron inflicted one of the greatest political disasters in modern British political history by holding the referendums that he did. He won on the Scottish one sure but he lost massively in the Brexit one: His job, his legacy, his standing in the eyes of the British people.

    No one wants to be the guy that destroys the United Kingdom.
    Back when? Why does that matter? Can you think of any recent event that finally came to it's disasterous conclusion that might have a change of people's points of view?

  19. #19
    The Unstoppable Force Orange Joe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    001100010010011110100001101101110011
    Posts
    20,182
    Quote Originally Posted by CostinR View Post
    They had a referendum. The Scottish said no to the idea back then.

    Realistically though the reason no government in London is ever really going to accept holding any referendum anytime soon is that it's widely held that David Cameron inflicted one of the greatest political disasters in modern British political history by holding the referendums that he did. He won on the Scottish one sure but he lost massively in the Brexit one: His job, his legacy, his standing in the eyes of the British people.

    No one wants to be the guy that destroys the United Kingdom.
    Wasn't before they decided to go with brexit?
    I have a fan. Seems he was permabanned.
    Yo, don't mind my "street talk"

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Attackrabbit View Post
    Best of luck to the Scots.
    Isn't one of the main issues the fact that even if Scotland gains independance they won't be able to join the EU as seperate country due to Spains issue with the Catalan region. Might have just been bullshit to keep the Scots in line when they had their vote last time.
    My country is also now starting to have a 'serious' independant movement but let's face it Scotland is at least 50x more prepared for independance than Wales
    https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-sp...-idUKKCN1NP25P

    Spain withdrew its objections to an independent Scotland rejoining the EU years ago.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by CostinR View Post
    They had a referendum. The Scottish said no to the idea back then.
    Again, that has not settled the issue, on the contrary. Especially as the main argument for remaining in the UK has completely evaporated from the perspective of many who leaned to leave, but ultimately voted remain because of the risk of being booted from the EU.

    Realistically though the reason no government in London is ever really going to accept holding any referendum anytime soon is that it's widely held that David Cameron inflicted one of the greatest political disasters in modern British political history by holding the referendums that he did. He won on the Scottish one sure but he lost massively in the Brexit one: His job, his legacy, his standing in the eyes of the British people.
    That won't be up to Westminster. There's a tipping point where internal divisions will become unmanageable without withdrawing home rule, and that's a political tinder box.

    No one wants to be the guy that destroys the United Kingdom.
    That ship has sailed years ago. Brexit has made Irish re-unification virtually guaranteed in a few years as the divergence between the GB and Northern Ireland will increase. The popular support is already leaning re-unification, and leaning very heavily towards re-unification in the younger generations. Demographics and Brexit have made it inevitable.

    Forcing Scotland to remain while accepting the inevitable for Northern Ireland is another political tinder box.

    The whole UK ship has already sailed while taking on water with no working pumps. Actually the only hope for saving a united Great Britain at least is having another Scottish referendum and actually getting a stay vote. On the medium term, the best bet for keeping the UK viable is actually allowing Scotland to seek closer ties with the EU akin to NI and Gibraltar while technically remaining in the UK.

    For context, I actually wanted Scotland to stay in the UK, just as I thought the UK should remain in the EU. I believed the UK should have held a 2nd referendum on Brexit before the last general elections, but then simply accepted that the UK is a goner. I think the Brexit deal as is was a mistake, and the UK should have sought a Norway style relationship with the EU which would have actually avoided most of these internal issues.

    The Brexit deal is designed to appease English nationalists. Which make up probably less than a third of the UK's population. This created more issues than it solved. Now the people still in the UK need to get a chance to express their opinions on their future and the only way for the UK to remain a thing is by addressing the concerns of the two thirds who aren't English nationalists.

    There are things that can be done to salvage the situation, but that can only happen by actually listening to Scots, the Irish and the Welsh too and addressing their needs and priorities.

    The UK's future relationship with the EU is not set in stone, it's an evolving thing.
    Last edited by Mihalik; 2021-01-02 at 08:21 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Orlong View Post
    It doesnt destroy the land to bury styrofoam 25 feet below the ground
    Today Obama once again kneeled at the altar of environmental naziism and hurt this once great country. He has now banned all drilling in the Atlantic Ocean

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •