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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by CostinR View Post
    They had a referendum. The Scottish said no to the idea back then.
    Under the promise that if they said no EU membership was guaranteed for essentially their lifetimes.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    Under the promise that if they said no EU membership was guaranteed for essentially their lifetimes.
    This is, unsurprisingly, completely and utterly false.

  3. #23
    Banned JohnBrown1917's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    This is, unsurprisingly, completely and utterly false.
    Can't blame the scots for trusting the UK, but that is no excuse to now prevent indepence.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBrown1917 View Post
    Can't blame the scots for trusting the UK, but that is no excuse to now prevent indepence.
    I appreciate that you feel that knowing what you are talking about is something that is completely optional but please go away and read a little before posting.

    To give a little hint your first port of call should be the SNP's own white paper on IndyRef.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    This is, unsurprisingly, completely and utterly false.
    I keep seeing you post that other people's position are wrong, but providing no evidence or documentation or even a cite. Could you elaborate with something like that? I'm not calling you out in particular, nor disagreeing, just curious about what the actual facts are in this case.

    It was my understanding that Scotland can still vote for independence and join the EU, but I will be the first to admit I don't know enough about it. Also, it occurs to me, I'm not sure what your position is on this issue....

  6. #26
    Banned JohnBrown1917's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    I appreciate that you feel that knowing what you are talking about is something that is completely optional but please go away and read a little before posting.

    To give a little hint your first port of call should be the SNP's own white paper on IndyRef.
    Or you could actually look up current polls and look up why some people voted remain back in the day.
    But just a hint, Leave is way ahead of remain. Denying reality must be hard on you.



    Maybe if you wish to a star, the tories will win in Scotland next election!

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    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    I keep seeing you post that other people's position are wrong, but providing no evidence or documentation or even a cite. Could you elaborate with something like that? I'm not calling you out in particular, nor disagreeing, just curious about what the actual facts are in this case.

    It was my understanding that Scotland can still vote for independence and join the EU, but I will be the first to admit I don't know enough about it. Also, it occurs to me, I'm not sure what your position is on this issue....
    The can only vote on it if the UK gov allows it, but its true that nothing is stopping them from joining the EU afterwards. Assuming they ellect a government who wishes to do so.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    I keep seeing you post that other people's position are wrong, but providing no evidence or documentation or even a cite. Could you elaborate with something like that? I'm not calling you out in particular, nor disagreeing, just curious about what the actual facts are in this case.

    It was my understanding that Scotland can still vote for independence and join the EU, but I will be the first to admit I don't know enough about it. Also, it occurs to me, I'm not sure what your position is on this issue....
    Do you? At no point was Scotland ever promised, as was claimed, that voting to remain a part of the UK would guarantee their EU membership. As I pointed out the SNP's own white paper was quite clear on the matter - you could try looking for this.

    Your understanding is wrong. Scotland cannot vote for independence and it is laughable to suggest that it could join the EU.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBrown1917 View Post
    Or you could actually look up current polls and look up why some people voted remain back in the day.
    But just a hint, Leave is way ahead of remain. Denying reality must be hard on you.
    What does this have to do with what I posted? It again comes back to you thinking that knowledge of a subject is optional. Have you looked at the SNP's white paper? What about the GERS? How do they fit in with EU membership criteria?

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Do you? At no point was Scotland ever promised, as was claimed, that voting to remain a part of the EU would guarantee their EU membership. As I pointed out the SNP's own white paper was quite clear on the matter - you could try looking for this.

    Your understanding is wrong. Scotland cannot vote for independence and it is laughable to suggest that it could join the EU.
    I appreciate you clarifying your position (not that you hadn't already, but at least at my request). I noticed you didn't have any cites for your position, however. I care very little about the EU membership "for life", however it's curious you can't simply link that cite yourself, since you're so familiar with it. Could you link that White Paper (again, if you already did so once)?

    I am more focused on the vote for independence and ensuing possibility of EU membership. I already posted a cite laying out the grounds for that happening. Do you have some evidence suggesting otherwise? I would very much like to see it.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    I appreciate you clarifying your position (not that you hadn't already, but at least at my request). I noticed you didn't have any cites for your position, however. I care very little about the EU membership "for life", however it's curious you can't simply link that cite yourself, since you're so familiar with it. Could you link that White Paper (again, if you already did so once)?

    I am more focused on the vote for independence and ensuing possibility of EU membership. I already posted a cite laying out the grounds for that happening. Do you have some evidence suggesting otherwise? I would very much like to see it.
    I am not going to bother wasting my time providing information that is readily available. Perhaps you should be directing your request for information and proof at the person who originally lied about what was promised? Although to give you a little hint - 266 of the SNP white paper makes clear that there was no such promise.

    Scotland cannot vote for independence. It needs Westminster to grant permission to hold a referendum. Scotland also does not meet the criteria for joining the EU. You could, instead of asking me, Google all this for yourself.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    I am not going to bother wasting my time providing information that is readily available. Perhaps you should be directing your request for information and proof at the person who originally lied about what was promised? Although to give you a little hint - 266 of the SNP white paper makes clear that there was no such promise.
    I usually become concerned when people can't link information they are citing. We can leave this discussion for now, but if you want to continue, you're going to need to provide the White Paper link. Asking others to find proof of your claim is a losing proposition. Your choice.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Scotland cannot vote for independence. It needs Westminster to grant permission to hold a referendum. Scotland also does not meet the criteria for joining the EU. You could, instead of asking me, Google all this for yourself.
    I already linked one cite saying they could. And they already have voted on it more than once (against, of course). Do you have some evidence saying otherwise? If you need more from me I'd be happy to provide second and third references.
    Last edited by cubby; 2021-01-03 at 01:57 AM.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    I am not going to bother wasting my time providing information that is readily available. Perhaps you should be directing your request for information and proof at the person who originally lied about what was promised? Although to give you a little hint - 266 of the SNP white paper makes clear that there was no such promise.

    Scotland cannot vote for independence. It needs Westminster to grant permission to hold a referendum. Scotland also does not meet the criteria for joining the EU. You could, instead of asking me, Google all this for yourself.
    If Scotland were independent they could most assuredly apply for EU membership.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    I usually become concerned when people can't link information they are citing. We can leave this discussion for now, but if you want to continue, you're going to need to provide the White Paper link. Asking others to find proof of your claim is a losing proposition. Your choice.




    I already linked one cite saying they could. And they already have voted on it more than once (against, of course). Do you have some evidence saying otherwise? If you need more from me I'd be happy to provide second and third references.
    Why aren't you asking the person who made the claim to provide proof? I've given you the exact point in the Scottish government's own assessment which disproves his claim.

    An article does not change UK or EU law.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    If Scotland were independent they could most assuredly apply for EU membership.
    Could it? What are the EU's requirements on monetary policy? Or deficit spending?

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Why aren't you asking the person who made the claim to provide proof? I've given you the exact point in the Scottish government's own assessment which disproves his claim.
    Do you have the link or not? Just post it. Have you already done so in this thread? I'll go find it in here if you did.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    An article does not change UK or EU law.
    What laws are you citing? What evidence do you have for your position? I keep trying to have a conversation with you about this topic, and while I'm providing cites for my positions, you seem to think it's our job to find cites to prove your points as well. That's not how this works.

    The article I linked pointed out reasons and laws saying Scotland could join the EU. Here is another article arguing that an independent Scotland could join the EU. I would enjoy seeing your evidence for you positions.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynarii View Post
    I think refusing to allow a referendum would be one of the worst ideas imaginable, given how much weight the Tories put on the Brexit one...
    In fairness to them, the Tories put a lot of weight on the Brexit referendum being a one time deal with no rerun/etc, and it wouldn't be just an independence referendum they would be refusing it would be a rerun of the 2014 independence referendum. So from a point of view of consistency/hypocrisy they wouldn't be doing anything out of character.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    Under the promise that if they said no EU membership was guaranteed for essentially their lifetimes.
    This is, unsurprisingly, completely and utterly false.
    Not only that, but there were actually a lot of voters who voted to leave the UK only because they were under the impression it also meant leaving the EU and that was their prime goal.

  15. #35
    Over 9000! Graeham's Avatar
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    It's also worth noting that the SNP are, in large part, considered to be the lesser of many evils. It's not necessarily that they or their policies are super popular - it's that the alternatives just happen to be pretty terrible. The Tories have a habit of neglecting Scotland, though Labour have not been much better even when they've been in power.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by caervek View Post
    Not only that, but there were actually a lot of voters who voted to leave the UK only because they were under the impression it also meant leaving the EU and that was their prime goal.
    How do you know that?

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Could it? What are the EU's requirements on monetary policy? Or deficit spending?
    I'm far from an expert, but nothing insurmountable seems to be at play here: https://ec.europa.eu/neighbourhood-e...-membership_en

    The largest obstacle would likely be "a functioning market economy and the capacity to cope with competition and market forces in the EU"

    But I can't see anything that would utterly disqualify and independent Scotland from joining the EU.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    Do you have the link or not? Just post it. Have you already done so in this thread? I'll go find it in here if you did.




    What laws are you citing? What evidence do you have for your position? I keep trying to have a conversation with you about this topic, and while I'm providing cites for my positions, you seem to think it's our job to find cites to prove your points as well. That's not how this works.

    The article I linked pointed out reasons and laws saying Scotland could join the EU. Here is another article arguing that an independent Scotland could join the EU. I would enjoy seeing your evidence for you positions.
    I cannot provide you with a link that proves that something that does not exist is non-existent. Again instead of asking me why aren't you asking Kallisto to provide you with a single speech or interview from someone in government, like Cameron or Clegg, or a government document that supports his claim.

    Why don't you search for yourself? The specific point I mentioned deals with the Con manifesto promise to hold an in/out referendum on the UK's EU membership. Ask yourself this; how could anyone promise Scotland that they would remain EU members when there was a possibility that the UK would (and did) vote to leave the EU. The answer is they can't.

    Also a fundamental principle of the British parliamentary system is that no current parliament can bind the hands of a future parliament therefore it was not possible for anyone in government to make this promise to Scotland.

    Cubby if you wish to join in with a conversation it is not unreasonable to expect that you have at least some basic knowledge on the subject beforehand. It is not my job to lead you by the hand or spoon feed you information.

    That is the same article and rather than proving your point it laughably reports Sturgeon's claims third hand via The Express!

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    Quote Originally Posted by caervek View Post
    Not only that, but there were actually a lot of voters who voted to leave the UK only because they were under the impression it also meant leaving the EU and that was their prime goal.
    If memory serves, I believe polling around the time of the referendum showed that around a third of SNP voters supported Brexit.

    Found a link - https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/...-finds-survey/

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    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    I'm far from an expert, but nothing insurmountable seems to be at play here: https://ec.europa.eu/neighbourhood-e...-membership_en

    The largest obstacle would likely be "a functioning market economy and the capacity to cope with competition and market forces in the EU"

    But I can't see anything that would utterly disqualify and independent Scotland from joining the EU.
    Setting up a currency from scratch is a massive undertaking - I believe that the SNP's own estimates were that this would take about a decade - especially when you are starting from a point (and this is pre-Covid) where your deficit spending is nearly three times the level allowed by the EU.

    It also remains to be seen whether there would be any appetite amongst member states for another member state that would be a net beneficiary to join given the pressures from Covid and that the EU has just lost a large contributor.
    Last edited by Pann; 2021-01-03 at 08:13 AM.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Why don't you search for yourself? The specific point I mentioned deals with the Con manifesto promise to hold an in/out referendum on the UK's EU membership. Ask yourself this; how could anyone promise Scotland that they would remain EU members when there was a possibility that the UK would (and did) vote to leave the EU. The answer is they can't.
    The answer is David Cameron was so sure that the UK would vote to stay in the EU he hardly campaigned for remain until extremely fucking late, then resigned as PM once he lost that vote.
    - Lars

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Muzjhath View Post
    The answer is David Cameron was so sure that the UK would vote to stay in the EU he hardly campaigned for remain until extremely fucking late, then resigned as PM once he lost that vote.
    That make no sense whatsoever. The EU referendum happened two years later.

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