Venthyr paladin getting nerfed in the future?

[Varaben]

Guess we'll have to wait and see once this leggo hits PTR.

If said pulses will trigger:
- Talents (First Avenger)
- Conduits (Ringing Clarity, Vengful Shock)
- Soulbind traits (Combat Meditation, Effusive Anima Accelerator)
Then this Leggo will be go-to busted day 1 craft for Prot Pallies.

If not then I guess it main feature will be extra 3 HP/10s or 5HP/10s as you suspect.

If neither of the above then it will be very lackluster.

Personally I see pulses doing 3 casts that are affected by talents and conduits while also generating HP.

I have to imagine it procs combat meditation, talents and all of that. But if it doesn't it's just gonna be garbage. It does seem like if it procs from Effusive Anima Accelerator (EAA?), it will be busted for all three specs. Every 10 seconds you're chopping 20 seconds (maybe) off the cooldown of Divine Toll. So you basically just spam it all day long.

Honestly not sure what Blizzard is thinking with this one. Surely they considered the interactions between two brand new spells. Even if the legendary gets nerfed to 20% or 30% damage, it will still probably be the play with Mikanikos because you will be a walking Divine Toll pulse.

[Dzonathan]

I have to imagine it procs combat meditation, talents and all of that. But if it doesn't it's just gonna be garbage. It does seem like if it procs from Effusive Anima Accelerator (EAA?), it will be busted for all three specs. Every 10 seconds you're chopping 20 seconds (maybe) off the cooldown of Divine Toll. So you basically just spam it all day long.

Honestly not sure what Blizzard is thinking with this one. Surely they considered the interactions between two brand new spells. Even if the legendary gets nerfed to 20% or 30% damage, it will still probably be the play with Mikanikos because you will be a walking Divine Toll pulse.

Even if secondary DTs dont trigger Mikanikos's new trait 2nd effect it would still allow you to shoot out shields every 10s. The flow would look like this:

0s - DT
10s - lesser DT
20s - lesser DT
30s - lesser DT
40s - DT
etc

Forget the EAA and let's see if the following things will be procced by lesser DTs:

- extra 1¬3HP / 10s - More SotR/WoG into more WoGs
- Free interrupt pulse / 10s - Glorious for mythic+ caster packs
- First Avenger refresh / 10s - Nice for mythic+ and raid mitigation
- Ringing Clarity making all effects above 33¬100% more potent depending on how many extra casts you get.
- Vengful Shock / 10s. With its 5s duration that is 50% uptime. 5% damage boost turns into 2.5% perma Holy Damage increase

[Dakara]

Onto my 3rd Covenant ahead of 9.1, just Necor to go.

As a Holy Paladin, (Heroic Raider, early Mythic bosses and keys up +15) I really notice the lack of Divine Toll to the point that the spec almost feels incomplete without it. Wings is a great CD but it's far from a burst AoE CD in M+

Venthyr does insane DPS for a Healer and Solid healing, but it's 4 min CD averages it out over the course of a Dungeon or Raid boss, with the exception of highly coordinated groups gaming it. The thing is, that feeling of "Risk / Reward" makes Venthyr quite enjoyable for me. Sure, without DT I find myself needing to communicate CD status to my M+ groups more often, especially for Prides, but a well timed AH just feels awesome.

Compare that to Night Fae and (I assume) Necrolords, you lose the amazing Synergy of Divine Toll with no moment of sheer awesomeness to compensate. Playing Night Fae as Holy just felt like I was giving myself an extra Affix to deal with, was terrible.
I'll see what Necro's in the next few weeks, but free LoD's don't really sound all that great for M+.

Anyway, I hope they don't nerf Venth on the back of community perception. It's a 4 min CD and your healing is definitely nerfed compared to DT so need to work that much harder. If they do nerf it, then I hope they lower the CD to something more reasonable to compensate.

Sounds like Holy's going to get a bit of attention in 9.1 if Ion's comments to Preach are anything to go by.
IMO, Ashen Hallow is what Covenant abilities should be. High impact, fun abilities that match the Covenant theme. Divine Toll is more representative of a baseline ability that Holy is severely lacking.

[Tyris Flare]

Onto my 3rd Covenant ahead of 9.1, just Necor to go.

Anyway, I hope they don't nerf Venth on the back of community perception. It's a 4 min CD and your healing is definitely nerfed compared to DT so need to work that much harder. If they do nerf it, then I hope they lower the CD to something more reasonable to compensate.

At least for m+, any other healer would absolutely trade throughput to be able to be #1 dps on a boss. It's like bringing 6 players to tyrannical fights. Other healers can't even come close to that dps even if they just dps and do 0 healing. And that really, really matters.

Preach went over this in a different video here at 33:40 and does a decent job. But stuff like AH is just inherently broken.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tLhz6zacVY&t=2019s

[Dakara]

At least for m+, any other healer would absolutely trade throughput to be able to be #1 dps on a boss. It's like bringing 6 players to tyrannical fights. Other healers can't even come close to that dps even if they just dps and do 0 healing. And that really, really matters.

Preach went over this in a different video here at 33:40 and does a decent job. But stuff like AH is just inherently broken.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tLhz6zacVY&t=2019s

I've seen Preach's interview, and he's right. I'm not a big fan of the disparity in passive DPS between the Healers, but this is a separate issue to Covenant abilities IMO. As a Holy Paladin, there are times when I really don't want to be in Melee pressing CS every 2nd GCD just so I can get enough HP to Heal. Healers should choose to DPS and not get free healing/resources from it (IMO).

But the Covenant ability problem is seperate, and while Preach / Ion (iirc) mentioned Ashen Hallow, it wasn't the focus of their discussion. The passive DPS from a Healer core toolkit was.

Paladins aren't just trading Throughput for Ashen Hallow, they're trading their only effective group heal because LoD is practically worthless outside of raids (15yd Frontal cone of healing).

Sure, once every 4 minutes it feels like having an extra DPS, but the rest of the time it feels like you've brought half a healer... especially in less than perfect groups who lean on their healers a lot more and forget about their own defensives, health pots etc.

If Ashen does indeed get nerfed (it likely will) then it needs the CD to be halved, otherwise it'll become a dumpster fire. The only way to make a 4 min good is to make it impactful which is what they went with for AH. If they just nerf it, instead of 90% of Paladins being Kyrian it'll be closer to 99%.

I started SL as a Resto Druid and quickly got frustrated with how difficult it was to help DPS because of the extra GCD's used to Shapeshift. But Healing was never a problem.
I also play a RSham, DPS is much easier than the Druid, especially with Lavasurge procs, and it's a decisions to Heal or DPS. I enjoy it. Again, healing is never a problem
On the Paladin however, as soon I dropped Kyrian and lost DT, healing did become a problem, and I have to work that much harder just to keep alive (let alone topped off) in times of heavy group damage.

I don't think many non Holy Paladin Healers understand just how much our Healing Toolkit is lacking without Divine Toll.... especially those players who enjoy standing in fire and missing interrupts.

[Tyris Flare]

I totally agree, I think holy paladin is a giant mess. I mean A, the game absolutely did not need a melee healer when melee is already insanely limited and clogged in raid fights. B, having horribly weak spells because you have HP feels absolutely terrible.

They really cratered the core spec in this expansion imo, it's just being propped up by borrowed power.

[sam86]

there are non DH tanks in wow? as main paladin, i surely don't see that

[Dakara]

I totally agree, I think holy paladin is a giant mess. I mean A, the game absolutely did not need a melee healer when melee is already insanely limited and clogged in raid fights. B, having horribly weak spells because you have HP feels absolutely terrible.

They really cratered the core spec in this expansion imo, it's just being propped up by borrowed power.

Exactly.

Kyrian turns us into a healer while Venthyr turns us into a DPS. It’s a hot mess, but the nature of the game these days seems to favour healers DPS more than HPS if your team works together. Pugging is the total opposite.

Given how much Ion and Preach discussed Holy Paladins, and how the 9.1 notes are severely lacking for us, I suspect there’s a few Dev’s scratching their head as to how they’re going to fix this mess. Just hope we don’t go back to Uldir...

I don’t mind being a melee healer as an option, but Blizzard need to abandon classifying Healers as Ranged or Melee for mechanics and just classify us as “Healers”.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

From a Holy perspective, I just checked out the Venthyr-specific legendary and was wondering about some math.


Radiant Embers
Ashen Hallow's duration is increased by 50%. Leaving the hallowed area will end the effect and its cooldown will be reduced by up to 50%, proportional to its remaining duration.


Being that it is a 4 minute cooldown ability, if one was to drop Ashen Hallow and immediately leave the hallowed area, how much quicker will the spell cooldown?


For M+ specifically, my thought process is that if the duration is going to be 50% longer then I could potentially afford to stand outside of it and spam Holy Light + Holy Shocks + WoG/LoD dumps to supplement. Getting Ashen Hallow back off of cooldown quicker seems to be the goal.

[kenn9530]

From a Holy perspective, I just checked out the Venthyr-specific legendary and was wondering about some math.


Radiant Embers
Ashen Hallow's duration is increased by 50%. Leaving the hallowed area will end the effect and its cooldown will be reduced by up to 50%, proportional to its remaining duration.


Being that it is a 4 minute cooldown ability, if one was to drop Ashen Hallow and immediately leave the hallowed area, how much quicker will the spell cooldown?


For M+ specifically, my thought process is that if the duration is going to be 50% longer then I could potentially afford to stand outside of it and spam Holy Light + Holy Shocks + WoG/LoD dumps to supplement. Getting Ashen Hallow back off of cooldown quicker seems to be the goal.

The key thing it says is the effect ends if you leave the effect, the reduced cd on it would only be very slightly usefull if you pop it and instantly kill a massive pack of adds and even then its still not much of a reduction, main strength is the 50% uptime and leaving early would make the legendery useless.