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  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by thunderdragon2 View Post
    still it takes like 10-15 seconds to type g2g irl issue, ppl would be fine with that, its when ppl just leave without saying a thing that i take issue with
    10-15 sec?lol are you typing it with your feet...all you need is to type gtg,and that takes a second or less

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by deenman View Post
    10-15 sec?lol are you typing it with your feet...all you need is to type gtg,and that takes a second or less
    i did say like a few posts up it was a example and i have seen some slow typrs but my point still stands

  3. #183
    Lol .. automated penalties and player reviews ... wtf?
    What people need to do is take a deep breath. So you got a key ruined, you can just level it back.

    If you group with random people you automatically take the chance that it may not work out.

  4. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by papaberry View Post
    i am not judging but why someone with a DC every 10 minutes for example would join a m+ besides ruining people's keys? i mean, if i had a bad internet connection like that i wouldnt be joining keys, it wouldnt be fun for me and would ruin other people's keys.
    A leave is a leave, for the people in your party it is the same if you leave for troll or if you leave because your house is on fire, get it? Losing item level n rewards would separate people that leave constantly and people that leave once in a while due to some unique and uncontrollable problem because if you leave once in a while due to some problem or whatever you would be able to restore your rewards easy and if you leave a lot you wouldnt get a good reward, thats it
    I understand the frustration when a key fails because of leavers, i of course experienced that too and will experience a lot in the future because I almost always pug.

    But imho there’s no simple solution with this, I remember in Vanilla when I often got deserter debuff in PvP because line or pc went down and due to queues I could not login back in a proper time, it was really frustrating.

    Also there are situations (not so rare in my low bracket where you take 60 minutes, 60 deaths and 600g repair to complete a dungeon (this week happened with a SD and a SoA +3). I usually don’t leave because I’m sad for the others, but should I really be blamed, in case? It’s your time but it’s also my time.

    The matter is far more complex than it seems.

  5. #185
    If there was a solution it would of been done by now.

    Pugging almost always ends poorly in WoW, regardless of content.
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  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by thunderdragon2 View Post
    i know it dosent make make sense but why else would you leave right at the last boss with 2-4 mins left on the timer? then to chase io score?
    I know people do it, I've seen it myself. It's just dumb. All I can guess is people don't realise it doesn't negatively impact their score.

    It's one thing if you fail the timer and it is still going to be a longass time still before you finish (especially now that not timing means just one piece of loot), but leaving near the end when it's clear you won't make it but can still finish quickly is silly.

    Blizzard didn't really help this by nerfing loot. Disincentives everyone from finishing keys.
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  7. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by Tziva View Post
    I know people do it, I've seen it myself. It's just dumb. All I can guess is people don't realise it doesn't negatively impact their score.

    It's one thing if you fail the timer and it is still going to be a longass time still before you finish (especially now that not timing means just one piece of loot), but leaving near the end when it's clear you won't make it but can still finish quickly is silly.

    Blizzard didn't really help this by nerfing loot. Disincentives everyone from finishing keys.
    i agree it's those people i want to punish and i wish to punish

  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    Not gonna make the key in time, don't want the leaver penalty. In this situation I could just afk and you'll be punished for leaving it
    Truee. I guess the penalty could also be applied if you get kicked for afking, but a gm would have to confirm that you were indeed afk, or that would be abused to shit probably.

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  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tziva View Post
    I know people do it, I've seen it myself. It's just dumb. All I can guess is people don't realise it doesn't negatively impact their score.
    It's not about the score, it's about depleted key runs. They don't want them to show up in their rio page.

    Just had a hunter leave on SD 17 right before the last boss because we had one wipe in the gauntlet and the timer was going to run out because of it.

    I would have wanted to see what that one loot was....
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  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puupi View Post
    It's not about the score, it's about depleted key runs. They don't want them to show up in their rio page.

    Just had a hunter leave on SD 17 right before the last boss because we had one wipe in the gauntlet and the timer was going to run out because of it.

    I would have wanted to see what that one loot was....
    Those don't negatively impact you at all, and they aren't particularly easy to see either. If you have a timed key, it will show up instead and you have to actually expand the category to see depleted. Untimed doesn't show up on the app summary or recent runs either. And if you don't have a timed key, then failed experience is better than none at all, so it would actually be detrimental to prevent that depleted key from showing up.

    And I feel like no one actually looks at anyone that in-depth that except, like, the player it pertains to. I know if I'm pugging and I see someone has done a ten in the tooltip, I'm not going to load up the website, look them up, and look at the breakdowns for each dungeon to see their depleted keys also. The cases where people might feel that is necessary seem really niche, and that's even assuming people care about depleted keys to begin with. Everyone fails keys, especially early in the expansion while people are learning, and then as they are trying to push. So, like, who gives a fuck.

    Again, I know people do, but it's all silly.
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  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by Tziva View Post
    There isn't an easy fix or it probably would have been implemented already.

    Any kind of automated system that would punish people for leaving, would also inadvertently punish innocent people as well or cause other repercussions by people refusing to leave to avoid punishment. Just to use your example, say the warlock would get penalised somehow for leaving so instead he decides to just /dance at the entrance instead and go make himself a sandwich. Now the rest of you are hostage because if you leave, you'll get punished for what is essentially not your fault.

    Leaver penalties may work in other games, but with the way WoW and m+ are designed, you can't really automate a fix for this that isn't going to punish innocents in addition to the people being malicious, or otherwise be exploited or result in modified (but not improved) behaviour.

    I think the best approach involves actual human review and decisions on some level, whether it is reporting those people to blizzard (and hoping they take action against habitual offenders) or screening pugs better and hoping you don't get unlucky.

    I'm not going to tell you not to PuG because I know that isn't always a viable option for people as someone who PuGs a lot myself. But I would recommend doing things like investigating m+ focused community groups and discords, and being clear in your group listings ("trying to time but will complete if not") to try to make sure everyone is on the same page to try to limit the likelihood as much as possible.
    Leaver Buster works fine in LoL, no reason a similar system couldn't be adopted to punish repeat leaver griefers. They do it enough, restrict their access to the feature. that simple. give them a debuff similar to deserter, only lasting MUCH MUCH longer. there must be consequences to bad behavior in order to stop the bad behavior.

  12. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jinpachi View Post
    Leaver Buster works fine in LoL, no reason a similar system couldn't be adopted to punish repeat leaver griefers. They do it enough, restrict their access to the feature. that simple. give them a debuff similar to deserter, only lasting MUCH MUCH longer. there must be consequences to bad behavior in order to stop the bad behavior.
    I feel like you didn't read any of the examples and situations in my post or the subsequent ones by others. Comparing a handbuilt-group situation in pve content like wow keystones with something like League is apples and oranges. Entirely different systems with different implementation, impact, and repercussions.

    I highly disagree this would work effectively, much less punish the offenders in appropriate proportions. The leaver is only one of five people in the group. You implement this in WoW, the would-be leaver just trolls the dungeon group instead (or goes offline or afk) to avoid the debuff and then one of the four innocent people has to take the debuff or else all of them are held hostage for 45+ minutes. This is a "solution" that causes more negative impact to the innocent people than just dealing with a leaver would where the absolute worst impact is the time already wasted on the key.

    This also negatively impacts people who have entirely reasonable reasons for leaving. I PuGed a key last week where we ran out of time right after the first boss. Based on the current pacing, it would have taken several more hours to finish the key, for which we'd be rewarded a single piece of loot to share. I wasn't the first person to leave, but the person that did sure was fucking justified and should not be punished for it.

    And as far as basing it on frequency, this is just going to punish the people who pug a lot (and are therefore more likely to encounter these situation) over people that run a key a week or play with friends, rather than leavers vs. not leavers.

    And that's not even really considering the logistics of a deserter debuff. In a situation where groups are manually made, how would that even work? Prevent use of the group tool? What about groups made via trade/discord/social communities? Block you from joining groups? What about other group content? Prevent keys from being activated? That also just wastes more time from teams building groups when they have to suddenly replace someone right when they're about to start.

    I understand the desire to have leavers punished, but you have to be pragmatic about what it actually looks like when implemented and whether it actually improves the problem. I maintain that with WoW's keystone system, the best way to handle leavers is a human manually reviewing the situation and manually applying a punishment (such as a short suspension) to the person who is causing the disruptive gameplay, whether they were the first person to actually leave or not. If we really want Blizzard to do something about the problem, that is what we need to be pushing them to do, not roll out some shitty automation.
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  13. #193
    Game needs to record if you leave a group before completion. Or R.IO needs a function like that.

    It needs to record total deaths with a break down of individual deaths.

    The point of time into the run at which the leave happened and how much time was remaining for each rank.

    Which bosses were defeated/undefeated.

    For habitual leavers, a pattern will likely form. But recording all the data would allow you to review and discern for yourself if you want that type of person in your group. No automatic punishment, to keep the system from being abused. The leader gets to look and decide what to do. If they want to risk it with someone who is a known leaver, fine. If not, fine.

    It needs to record all the data and let the user decide.
    Last edited by Dald; 2021-01-16 at 01:44 AM.

  14. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by Tziva View Post
    If we really want Blizzard to do something about the problem, that is what we need to be pushing them to do, not roll out some shitty automation.
    It is certainly down to Blizzard to add capability to track such patterns, including trolling.

    I do think people have their finger a tad too light on that leave group option and it certainly would be nice for Blizzard to invent a system that penalizes abusers as opposed to just giving up under assumption that nothing can be done or the whole thing will get dodged.

    And yes, we all have that shitty troll who leaves the moment they see key will get depleted even if it's couple minutes away from last boss.

    Maybe Blizzard should put incomplete runs too in their publicly available data and not just depletes, so tools like raider.io can offer run completion % on these per person - then the guy leaving or trolling or whatever will still flag him if he does it too much. Then people will be incentivized to finish reasonably depleted runs just to not get their % down, while still allowing enough leeway to not negatively impact one off leaves/disbands.
    Last edited by Gaidax; 2021-01-16 at 01:55 AM.

  15. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    It is certainly down to Blizzard to add capability to track such patterns, including trolling.

    I do think people have their finger a tad too light on that leave group option and it certainly would be nice for Blizzard to invent a system that penalizes abusers as opposed to just giving up under assumption that nothing can be done or the whole thing will get dodged.
    I'm definitely not opposed to punishing leavers. I just think automating punishments is a terrible idea and will get a lot of innocent folks negatively impacted, either directly or indirectly.
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  16. #196
    Quote Originally Posted by Tziva View Post
    I'm definitely not opposed to punishing leavers. I just think automating punishments is a terrible idea and will get a lot of innocent folks negatively impacted, either directly or indirectly.
    Does not need to be automated. It's like raider.io - community decides. Blizzard just needs to add appropriate data and share it.

    For example, I wonder what would happen if Blizz would register M+ runs that are incomplete too and not just completed depletes. As in the moment you join M+ and start the run - the record is there, so quitting or trolling is pointless because it will be all the same registered incomplete run.

    Then raider.io could pick that data up and form a sort of metric out of it, so people can decide if that incomplete runs % or whatever other score is reasonable or not.

    So if let's say community average is 15% of the runs are incomplete and you suddenly see a guy with 40% then there is a red flag there. Then it's up to group leader to decide if they want it or not.

  17. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by Tziva View Post
    I feel like you didn't read any of the examples and situations in my post or the subsequent ones by others. Comparing a handbuilt-group situation in pve content like wow keystones with something like League is apples and oranges. Entirely different systems with different implementation, impact, and repercussions.

    I highly disagree this would work effectively, much less punish the offenders in appropriate proportions. The leaver is only one of five people in the group. You implement this in WoW, the would-be leaver just trolls the dungeon group instead (or goes offline or afk) to avoid the debuff and then one of the four innocent people has to take the debuff or else all of them are held hostage for 45+ minutes. This is a "solution" that causes more negative impact to the innocent people than just dealing with a leaver would where the absolute worst impact is the time already wasted on the key.

    This also negatively impacts people who have entirely reasonable reasons for leaving. I PuGed a key last week where we ran out of time right after the first boss. Based on the current pacing, it would have taken several more hours to finish the key, for which we'd be rewarded a single piece of loot to share. I wasn't the first person to leave, but the person that did sure was fucking justified and should not be punished for it.

    And as far as basing it on frequency, this is just going to punish the people who pug a lot (and are therefore more likely to encounter these situation) over people that run a key a week or play with friends, rather than leavers vs. not leavers.

    And that's not even really considering the logistics of a deserter debuff. In a situation where groups are manually made, how would that even work? Prevent use of the group tool? What about groups made via trade/discord/social communities? Block you from joining groups? What about other group content? Prevent keys from being activated? That also just wastes more time from teams building groups when they have to suddenly replace someone right when they're about to start.

    I understand the desire to have leavers punished, but you have to be pragmatic about what it actually looks like when implemented and whether it actually improves the problem. I maintain that with WoW's keystone system, the best way to handle leavers is a human manually reviewing the situation and manually applying a punishment (such as a short suspension) to the person who is causing the disruptive gameplay, whether they were the first person to actually leave or not. If we really want Blizzard to do something about the problem, that is what we need to be pushing them to do, not roll out some shitty automation.
    one person leaves, the other 4 report. first time gets a warning. subsequent offenses get the debuff up to and including permanent suspension from running the dungeon. why would you ever think the other 4 would get any kind of debuff is beyond me. Anyways, yes, the system would work, its proven to work, and need only have something similar implemented to also prove it works in WoW. That is, assuming your premise of it being a big problem is even correct in the first place, which im sure is quite debatable.

    ps. the debuff could be tailored to prevent you from running dungeons, period, so as to make people actually think about the consequences of their actions. Don't be a fucking dick and leave a M+ with no good reason and it wont be an issue.

  18. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by xpose View Post
    No one owes you an explanation of why they have to leave lol
    You need to owe someone a little decency to provide it?
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  19. #199
    Quote Originally Posted by Jinpachi View Post
    Leaver Buster works fine in LoL, no reason a similar system couldn't be adopted to punish repeat leaver griefers. They do it enough, restrict their access to the feature. that simple. give them a debuff similar to deserter, only lasting MUCH MUCH longer. there must be consequences to bad behavior in order to stop the bad behavior.
    then they would have to start punishing people for bad performance... i just tried to do mists on an alt... the healer was doing 500 hps and couldn't keep the tank up... the tank left after he died repeatedly...

  20. #200
    I honestly think outright banning systems like r.io is the way to go if you want to fix this.

    The PuG community will be less toxic.
    The serious Mythic+ players (established groups) won't be affected.

    I know that r.io feeds off of data made freely available by Blizzard, and there probably is a way to block its use.

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