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  1. #641
    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    The problem is that due to ultra lazy game design, EVERY freaking boss (if not every, 90%) has a freaking unavoidable dots cheap mechanic (or more than one) that the long the combat lasts, the more will kill people. That’s why I hate tyr weeks.
    I love mechanics which reward you and make the fight work rather than kill you - i.e. dmg buff which you get if you do something correctly so rather than boss punishing you (killing you) and making things harder, if you fail you just take longer to do everything. There is a bit of that in the expansions tbh - weapons in NW, ToP lich boss, using stun on the boss in DoS and so on.
    On the other hand...
    I am sorry mate but this is hard to take from you personally, as you have several times stated that you have been dying on PF last boss and on second boss in SoA to avoidable mechanics. Currently it's quite a good balance between avoidable mechanics and unavoidable (not saying that tuning is exactly alright tho). If they added more avoidable mechanics it wouldn't fix the problem plus avoidable mechanics has to be more punishable so you actually want to avoid them.

  2. #642
    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    I love mechanics which reward you and make the fight work rather than kill you - i.e. dmg buff which you get if you do something correctly so rather than boss punishing you (killing you) and making things harder, if you fail you just take longer to do everything. There is a bit of that in the expansions tbh - weapons in NW, ToP lich boss, using stun on the boss in DoS and so on.
    On the other hand...
    I am sorry mate but this is hard to take from you personally, as you have several times stated that you have been dying on PF last boss and on second boss in SoA to avoidable mechanics. Currently it's quite a good balance between avoidable mechanics and unavoidable (not saying that tuning is exactly alright tho). If they added more avoidable mechanics it wouldn't fix the problem plus avoidable mechanics has to be more punishable so you actually want to avoid them.
    I was talking about dots/aoe specifically, not avoidable mechanics.

    Dots cannot be avoided. Shiet that does aoe damage regardless where you are positioned cannot be avoided. For me it’s a crappy mechanic, sorry, there’s not much to debate, you like it or you don’t.

    Stradama tentacles or Ventunax balls are a “personal” issues of course, dots and aoe are not.

    At least I improved a lot with Gorechop hooks (now I can avoid them) and Stitchflesh arrow (now i position it the right way). Also I die less at ToP black wind platforms XD.
    Last edited by chiddie; 2021-04-12 at 01:55 PM.

  3. #643
    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    how else are they supposed to improve rio if they have already everything at 14?
    We just told you. Run your own key.

    15s give 210s that ppl want for valor upgrades. Along with 14s, it also gives best vault reward. Ppl also want it for ksm, like u. This is the most competitive key to get into. Most dps, especially off meta, struggled thru hour long wait times or flat out denial all the way up to this point. Something that has been minimized for you as a healer. Now you are in the same boat as them. And the only solution is run your own key. Get a 15 that's not something you "need"? Run it anyway to pad the number of dungeons 15+ completed for rio. Hopefully 16 is something you need. If not, run that for the rio. Keep it up and delevel any keys above 16. You'll be done in no time.

    When I run my keys there's no way in hell I'm inviting a 1100 sham with 213 or whatever ilvl you are. I can find one with 1500+ and 220+ ilvl if I wait an extra minute. No desire to take a chance on you when I want an easy clear

  4. #644
    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    Dots cannot be avoided. Shiet that does aoe damage regardless where you are positioned cannot be avoided. For me it’s a crappy mechanic, sorry, there’s not much to debate, you like it or you don’t.
    yeah, but with what do you replace the mechanic then? non dots? Dots are more healable than one shot hits when it comes to high end scaling.

  5. #645
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    We just told you. Run your own key.

    15s give 210s that ppl want for valor upgrades. Along with 14s, it also gives best vault reward. Ppl also want it for ksm, like u. This is the most competitive key to get into. Most dps, especially off meta, struggled thru hour long wait times or flat out denial all the way up to this point. Something that has been minimized for you as a healer. Now you are in the same boat as them. And the only solution is run your own key. Get a 15 that's not something you "need"? Run it anyway to pad the number of dungeons 15+ completed for rio. Hopefully 16 is something you need. If not, run that for the rio. Keep it up and delevel any keys above 16. You'll be done in no time.

    When I run my keys there's no way in hell I'm inviting a 1100 sham with 213 or whatever ilvl you are. I can find one with 1500+ and 220+ ilvl if I wait an extra minute. No desire to take a chance on you when I want an easy clear
    I will probably end doing my keys sooner or later, yes. Not happy with the solution because I have to time also a hella lot of 14 I don’t need at all, but I guess it’s better than nothing.

  6. #646
    You won’t stop mythic quitters until the punishment is more severe.

    Make it so when you quit, you can’t queue up for a m+ for another day. If you quit again within a month, a week. If you quit a third time, you can’t join a m+ for a month

    Right now, you can just quit and wait it out without any repercussions and people jump on that.

    Blizzard could solve this overnight but they can’t do it without being heavy handed and setting some examples out of some people

  7. #647
    Quote Originally Posted by justandulas View Post
    You won’t stop mythic quitters until the punishment is more severe.

    Make it so when you quit, you can’t queue up for a m+ for another day. If you quit again within a month, a week. If you quit a third time, you can’t join a m+ for a month

    Right now, you can just quit and wait it out without any repercussions and people jump on that.

    Blizzard could solve this overnight but they can’t do it without being heavy handed and setting some examples out of some people
    That is not a solution. That is, hands down, the worst suggestion I've ever seen on this website. Congratulations, I guess.

  8. #648
    Warchief Sugarcube's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by justandulas View Post
    You won’t stop mythic quitters until the punishment is more severe.

    Make it so when you quit, you can’t queue up for a m+ for another day. If you quit again within a month, a week. If you quit a third time, you can’t join a m+ for a month

    Right now, you can just quit and wait it out without any repercussions and people jump on that.

    Blizzard could solve this overnight but they can’t do it without being heavy handed and setting some examples out of some people
    lol... then they should permaban any people underperforming... die to tentacles? permaban... don't run in to stun on manastorm? permaban... die to not taking portal on muehzala? permaban...

    doing far less than what you sim in dps? permaban...

  9. #649
    Herald of the Titans ercarp's Avatar
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    If people stop messing up and dying to dumb shit, I won't have a reason to leave their keys. I don't have time to spend hours carrying someone else's key. Maybe if this was Legion, sure, but I don't have that kind of patience anymore.

  10. #650
    Quote Originally Posted by Sugarcube View Post
    lol... then they should permaban any people underperforming... die to tentacles? permaban... don't run in to stun on manastorm? permaban... die to not taking portal on muehzala? permaban...

    doing far less than what you sim in dps? permaban...
    It is not comparable to quitting a M+ in progress and ruining it for the 4 others. Not even close.

    Also, notice i didn't say they SHOULD do this, i said that quitting won't stop until the punishment outweights the crime (quitting). Right now, there is absolutely no punishment for quitting, incentivizing people to leave if it isn't going well, which screws 4 other people over.

    Selfish behavior in games is only stopped by heavy handed punishment.

  11. #651
    Quote Originally Posted by justandulas View Post
    You won’t stop mythic quitters until the punishment is more severe.

    Make it so when you quit, you can’t queue up for a m+ for another day. If you quit again within a month, a week. If you quit a third time, you can’t join a m+ for a month

    Right now, you can just quit and wait it out without any repercussions and people jump on that.

    Blizzard could solve this overnight but they can’t do it without being heavy handed and setting some examples out of some people
    From game design perspective you should not punish the leaver - you should prevent rest of the group being punished for the action of the leaver, so for example allow people to pause the key and search for a new player (this is just an example, not actual idea).

    If the leaver is desperate - he will leave, no matter what "punishment" awaits for him, this still ends up with 4 other people's run wasted

  12. #652
    Quote Originally Posted by justandulas View Post
    You won’t stop mythic quitters until the punishment is more severe.

    Make it so when you quit, you can’t queue up for a m+ for another day. If you quit again within a month, a week. If you quit a third time, you can’t join a m+ for a month

    Right now, you can just quit and wait it out without any repercussions and people jump on that.

    Blizzard could solve this overnight but they can’t do it without being heavy handed and setting some examples out of some people
    Majority of ppl leave because other players are not performing well enough. I only do keys for vault so idc if they don't get timed. I waot until multiple wipes when its obvious ot probably can't be completed at all. Had a nw yesterday with 5 wipes on 2nd boss. 2 tries with lust, all spears gone, couldn't get below 20%. I left. I shldnt be punished for that

  13. #653
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    Majority of ppl leave because other players are not performing well enough. I only do keys for vault so idc if they don't get timed. I waot until multiple wipes when its obvious ot probably can't be completed at all. Had a nw yesterday with 5 wipes on 2nd boss. 2 tries with lust, all spears gone, couldn't get below 20%. I left. I shldnt be punished for that
    I don't want people to be punished, and i barely even run M+ this expac. I was only pointing out that people will always leave when it goes tits up, without a punishment against it. And if the punishment is a big meh, people won't care.

    But if they go TOO heavy handed, they'll lose people so its tough

  14. #654
    RaiderIO is the only one that can fix this or Blizzard breaking the API to stop such services from working. If they would just track unfinished dungeons (I know it's not possible atm) you would see a frequent leaver have them in the 100s and not invite them for anything.

    They could also give more score for just finishing dungeons instead of just for timing them.

    Blizzard could also do things to help the people having their keys ruined by leavers.

    I think they should at least do something so that running your own key and having some dickhead leave after one wipe doesn't downgrade the key. If you could just run the same key level until you upgrade it would be much better overall. It could still downgrade on reset day if you didn't time the same lvl key like now.

  15. #655
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    yeah - "you did it" - players who are in what ? top 1% of wow players.

    now you extrapolate your resoults on general playerbase ?

    thats like me saying that you shoudl bench press 120 kg in series without breaking a sweat because i and plenty other people around world have no problem to do so .

    this is what i hate about wow forums - everyone treats anyone who is even remotely less skilled then they as absolute trash - while those who are above them as "lol-nolifers lol get life " .
    An arbitrary comparison does rarely work in you favor of your argument, you can't compare so different things so easily.

    I'm sorry, but if +15s were done with 195 ilvl, and you cant do them with 215, it is a you problem.

  16. #656
    Quote Originally Posted by Lathspell View Post
    RaiderIO is the only one that can fix this or Blizzard breaking the API to stop such services from working. If they would just track unfinished dungeons (I know it's not possible atm) you would see a frequent leaver have them in the 100s and not invite them for anything.

    They could also give more score for just finishing dungeons instead of just for timing them.

    Blizzard could also do things to help the people having their keys ruined by leavers.

    I think they should at least do something so that running your own key and having some dickhead leave after one wipe doesn't downgrade the key. If you could just run the same key level until you upgrade it would be much better overall. It could still downgrade on reset day if you didn't time the same lvl key like now.
    This. A simple Dungeon Quit Counter, or % of dungeons quit listed beside your character in a queue or listing would solve it.

  17. #657
    Warchief Sugarcube's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by justandulas View Post
    Selfish behavior in games is only stopped by heavy handed punishment.
    you mean like doing content that you shouldn't be doing because you think you're better than you actually are?

  18. #658
    Quote Originally Posted by justandulas View Post
    I don't want people to be punished, and i barely even run M+ this expac. I was only pointing out that people will always leave when it goes tits up, without a punishment against it. And if the punishment is a big meh, people won't care.

    But if they go TOO heavy handed, they'll lose people so its tough
    Imo, the onus is on the keyholder. Its up to them to properly vet the ppl they are inviting. Any system that punishes the leaver, is unfair imo. If I join your group, I only know about you. I didn't invite the 3 other ppl. If the group sucks really bad, I shldnt be forced to stay in the group. It sucks for the person running their key, and its obviously not always their fault, but its not as if a ruined key is the worst thing in the game. Sets them back an additional 40 mins to level it back up.

    The system as is definitely isn't perfect. But any change I've seen suggested has been far worse and more susceptible to abuse.

  19. #659
    Quote Originally Posted by justandulas View Post
    This. A simple Dungeon Quit Counter, or % of dungeons quit listed beside your character in a queue or listing would solve it.
    I'd support this if they added a "fucks given" counter permanently set to 0 while they're doing it.

  20. #660
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    Imo, the onus is on the keyholder. Its up to them to properly vet the ppl they are inviting. Any system that punishes the leaver, is unfair imo. If I join your group, I only know about you. I didn't invite the 3 other ppl. If the group sucks really bad, I shldnt be forced to stay in the group. It sucks for the person running their key, and its obviously not always their fault, but its not as if a ruined key is the worst thing in the game. Sets them back an additional 40 mins to level it back up.

    The system as is definitely isn't perfect. But any change I've seen suggested has been far worse and more susceptible to abuse.
    What would be the harm in not having the key downgrade if you fail the timer or someone leaves before the dungeon is finished?

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