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  1. #701
    Quote Originally Posted by Lathspell View Post
    I think this stems from the idea that if you sign up for a dungeon you sign up to finish it and not quit half way. I get leaving in a situation like that where it really is hopeless. I don't think many people disagree about that. I wouldn't even mind the leaving part if the keyholder wasn't punished for it while the one who leaves doesn't suffer any consequences.

    I agree that punishing the leaver isn't really feasible (except for that tracking unfinished runs thing), but either just getting rid of keystones alltogether in favor of an unlockable (complete +14 timed to unlock +15) difficulty slider or not having to downgrade your key if you get an idiot ruining your run. I would like to hear counter arguments against this (other than not wanting "unfit" people having too high keys)
    I think that should be communicated in the beginning. To me, you sign up to a group with the expectation to finish it on time. Everyone has a different expectation and you don't know unless you talk or put it in the description. When I run my own keys, I don't mind if ppl leave if it doesn't look timed. Other ppl put "no leavers" in the description. Just gotta communicate

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lathspell View Post
    This isn't a problem for people who don't leave keys, they will only have a few unfinished ones, but the ones leaving will have 100's.
    So only the first person to leave gets the unfinished mark on their record? Not the other 4 unless they kick them? What's stopping them from just going afk?

  2. #702
    Pandaren Monk Sugarcube's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    I’m against punishment for leavers because it would affect even legit leavers, but the scenario “jizuz I’m stuck into an endless 90 minutes dungeon” is not THAT usual.
    because people leave before it gets to that point...

  3. #703
    Quote Originally Posted by Temp name View Post
    3man group invites 2 pugs / joins another key.
    They all go afk.

    What do then?

    It's a social problem, it won't be solved with overly complicated systems
    Leave (again, everyone will have a certain % of leaving keys, this will only seed out so people won't do it repeatedly and whenever they feel like) or wait for the key to run out and just chuck it up to a bad day.

    It's really not constructive to view a system under the lens of the worst possible scenario happening repeatedly. There will always be situations outside of the norms that will suck whatever system you envision, but at least here it takes 3 people to ruin it for 2 and it's a far less likely scenario than 1 ruining it for 4 by leaving because he's a bit annoyed at the poor progress.

    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    My NW run yesterday. Im solo dps in a 4 man group of friends. 5 wipes on same boss. No improvement whatsoever with each attempt. Why should I stay jist cause they want to continue?
    Because you joined the key and should try your best as long as it's viable?

    Again, very much the same situation as the one above. The odds of running into this kind of scenario where not 2 of the other people would realize the run is ruined and abandon, and this happening often enough that i would severely impact someones leave ratio isn't that likely. Not compared to how the system is now, when 1 player can easily ruin a run for 4 others just because he's not feeling it for whatever reason.

  4. #704
    Quote Originally Posted by Sugarcube View Post
    because people leave before it gets to that point...
    Yes but also no. Many people leave at first wipe, even if it’s after 5 minutes. This is insane.

  5. #705
    Pandaren Monk Sugarcube's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    Yes but also no. Many people leave at first wipe, even if it’s after 5 minutes. This is insane.
    no it's not... you can tell how the group is going to go early on...

  6. #706
    Quote Originally Posted by Thrif View Post
    Leave (again, everyone will have a certain % of leaving keys, this will only seed out so people won't do it repeatedly and whenever they feel like) or wait for the key to run out and just chuck it up to a bad day.

    It's really not constructive to view a system under the lens of the worst possible scenario happening repeatedly. There will always be situations outside of the norms that will suck whatever system you envision, but at least here it takes 3 people to ruin it for 2 and it's a far less likely scenario than 1 ruining it for 4 by leaving because he's a bit annoyed at the poor progress.



    Because you joined the key and should try your best as long as it's viable?

    Again, very much the same situation as the one above. The odds of running into this kind of scenario where not 2 of the other people would realize the run is ruined and abandon, and this happening often enough that i would severely impact someones leave ratio isn't that likely. Not compared to how the system is now, when 1 player can easily ruin a run for 4 others just because he's not feeling it for whatever reason.
    What is "viable". Key wasn't gonna be timed after 2 wipes, i stayed for 3 additional.

    Don't want ppl leaving your key? Vet the players you're running with better. Not 100% fool proof but running with a low io mistweaver who couldn't keep us up isn't gonna help ppl stick around lol.

  7. #707
    Epic! Alroxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    I’m against punishment for leavers because it would affect even legit leavers, but the scenario “jizuz I’m stuck into an endless 90 minutes dungeon” is not THAT usual.
    I still think the problem with "punishment for leavers" is that it just causes other negative gameplay. For instance, let's say there is a punishment for the first "leaver", what prevents a player who sees that the group isn't going to complete (much less time the key) for whatever reason (i.e. Low DPS, players don't understand mechanics and wipes, etc) and decides to "functionally leave" the group without exiting the dungeon.

    They don't actually exit the dungeon but just go to at best non-participating yet still moving around role (to prevent AFK timer from kicking in) or at worst purposely troll the group by pulling extra.
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  8. #708
    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    I still think the problem with "punishment for leavers" is that it just causes other negative gameplay. For instance, let's say there is a punishment for the first "leaver", what prevents a player who sees that the group isn't going to complete (much less time the key) for whatever reason (i.e. Low DPS, players don't understand mechanics and wipes, etc) and decides to "functionally leave" the group without exiting the dungeon.

    They don't actually exit the dungeon but just go to at best non-participating yet still moving around role (to prevent AFK timer from kicking in) or at worst purposely troll the group by pulling extra.
    Absolutely nothing. Just like every "solution" ppl come up with, it will lead to more toxicity. The only good solution is to make friends, join a guild, and actually communicate with the ppl you are running with. Wont work every time but will drastically improve your quality of runs

  9. #709
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post

    So only the first person to leave gets the unfinished mark on their record? Not the other 4 unless they kick them? What's stopping them from just going afk?
    No everyone would get it if the dungeon is unfinished. The thing is that if you are one of the people who joins a key for 5-15 mins and leaves you would get many many more over time than someone who always tries to finish no matter what. Then you could look at applicants with:

    Timed +15 runs 50
    Unfinished 15 runs 250


    Timed +15 runs 50
    Not timed +15 runs 225
    Unfinished 15 runs 25

    Who would you pick? I suppose someone will think that the guy with only timed 15's is better.

  10. #710
    Dreadlord reemi's Avatar
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    The player who want to leave should be able to be replaced.

    It can be a solution.

    Exemple 1:
    Warlock want to leave, he accept he will be replace.
    Warlock quit
    You can now invite a replacement and will be summoned near you.

    Exemple 2:
    Warlock is kicked.
    He didnt accepted to be replaced.
    You cant invite a replacement.

    Exemple 3:
    Warlock is afk since 5 minutes or more.
    You can invite a replacement.

  11. #711
    Quote Originally Posted by reemi View Post
    The player who want to leave should be able to be replaced.

    It can be a solution.

    Exemple 1:
    Warlock want to leave, he accept he will be replace.
    Warlock quit
    You can now invite a replacement and will be summoned near you.

    Exemple 2:
    Warlock is kicked.
    He didnt accepted to be replaced.
    You cant invite a replacement.

    Exemple 3:
    Warlock is afk since 5 minutes or more.
    You can invite a replacement.
    Would be great for boosting for sure... 5 man the dungeon to last boss, have one guy leave and invite carry in. Profit.

  12. #712
    The Lightbringer Minikin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feral Druid ist Op View Post
    the solution is simple, dont be bad and dont inv bads and nobody will leave your keys.

    if you do a PF for exaple inv that 1000 score DH who did 150 PF keys cuz he needs 2 trinkets and a offhand form that godforsaken place over a 1500 score WL he will know every mob by name and birthdate and most likely dont fail.
    While I'm not that high on keys I do agree with this approach.

    In my own example (super casual, only two mythics run in the last two weeks, io 994, highest key +13), there are certain dungeons that I am crazy comfy with cuz I've been spamming them. Like I can run PF and SD blindfolded but I hate going to to SoA and DoS. Comparitively I've run about 15 of SD and PF but only 2 of SoA and DoS.
    Blood Elves were based on a STRONG request from a poll of Asian players where many remarked on the Horde side that they and their girlfriends wanted a non-creepy femme race to play (Source)

  13. #713
    Quote Originally Posted by Sugarcube View Post
    yet i have no problems getting invites... playing retri, frost dk or bm hunter alts... no problems getting invites as shadow either if i am doing my weekly keys...
    Then Count yourself lucky cause that is what I am calling it.
    People on this thread only get pissed at you when you don't agree with them...FACT

  14. #714
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    Absolutely nothing. Just like every "solution" ppl come up with, it will lead to more toxicity. The only good solution is to make friends, join a guild, and actually communicate with the ppl you are running with. Wont work every time but will drastically improve your quality of runs
    ...or getting rid of the timer (either removing it or making it more friendly).

    There HAS to be something else to measure “skill” besides a timer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lathspell View Post
    Would be great for boosting for sure... 5 man the dungeon to last boss, have one guy leave and invite carry in. Profit.
    This would work for loot of last boss (or specific bosses) and nothing else since for the key to be valid you need all bosses down and mob %.

    It would be surely a happy party for guilds that carry guildies but in pug it would not work.

  15. #715
    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    ...or getting rid of the timer (either removing it or making it more friendly).

    There HAS to be something else to measure “skill” besides a timer.

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    This would work for loot of last boss (or specific bosses) and nothing else since for the key to be valid you need all bosses down and mob %.

    It would be surely a happy party for guilds that carry guildies but in pug it would not work.
    The entire difficulty is based on the timer. If you dont like the timer, you should petition for a separate challenge mode instead of removing the content a ton of players like.

    None of the pulls are hard with every single cd up. Part of the skill of m+ is knowing when to use which ones. Not fun just waiting on cds to do content too difficult for you when timed

  16. #716
    It's pretty simple, really:

    Leave a group while the timer is still going? 24 hour debuff preventing you from doing another key. And make it visible to other players so other people can see you're an asshole who leaves. Bring back server community and social responsibility like vanilla has.

    But then won't people just /afk at the entrance and wait for the timer to run out? Plenty of ways to check for non-participation, like looking at amount of damage/healing done, distance from the rest of the group, etc.

  17. #717
    Quote Originally Posted by anon5123 View Post
    But then won't people just /afk at the entrance and wait for the timer to run out? Plenty of ways to check for non-participation, like looking at amount of damage/healing done, distance from the rest of the group, etc.
    Or -- hear me out here -- instead of inventing new systems to monitor player behavior that are inherently prone to abuse Blizzard doesn't do anything because this isn't their problem to fix.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    ...or getting rid of the timer (either removing it or making it more friendly).

    There HAS to be something else to measure “skill” besides a timer.
    Yes, it's called "finding a new game to play" instead of demanding to speak to Blizzard's manager and have them fix a social issue they have no business intervening in.

  18. #718
    The Lightbringer Azerox's Avatar
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    Imo remove the timers and keep that for mdi.
    If you want to practice that you can, but it will take off alot of pressure.
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  19. #719
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    Or -- hear me out here -- instead of inventing new systems to monitor player behavior that are inherently prone to abuse Blizzard doesn't do anything because this isn't their problem to fix.

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    Yes, it's called "finding a new game to play" instead of demanding to speak to Blizzard's manager and have them fix a social issue they have no business intervening in.
    So the only way to measure skill in rpgs is a timer? Really?

    I’m not convinced. Oh and the social issue is caused by Blizzard itself. No other mmorpg has so many whines about endgame structure. It can’t be always players’ fault.

    The gap between ppl that can do guild runs and ppl who can’t for whatever reason is just too huge.

    I don’t care that much, I know that having to pug 100% I will take ages to get KSM no matter my skill, but it’s an issue indeed.

  20. #720
    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    So the only way to measure skill in rpgs is a timer? Really?
    Wrong. Please re-read my post, that's not what I said. The only way to measure skill in M+ is the timer. If you don't like the timer, find a game that doesn't have timed dungeons instead of complaining that Blizzard doesn't design the game around your singular voice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azerox View Post
    Imo remove the timers and keep that for mdi.
    If you want to practice that you can, but it will take off alot of pressure.
    Yes, I too will enjoy pulling 7 groups with cooldowns then waiting 8 minutes to do it again. This sounds like fun and exciting game play. Where do I sign u-

    ...fuck, I fell asleep typing that. Sorry.

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