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  1. #721
    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    So the only way to measure skill in rpgs is a timer? Really?
    Wrong. Please re-read my post, that's not what I said. The only way to measure skill in M+ is the timer. If you don't like the timer, find a game that doesn't have timed dungeons instead of complaining that Blizzard doesn't design the game around your singular voice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azerox View Post
    Imo remove the timers and keep that for mdi.
    If you want to practice that you can, but it will take off alot of pressure.
    Yes, I too will enjoy pulling 7 groups with cooldowns then waiting 8 minutes to do it again. This sounds like fun and exciting game play. Where do I sign u-

    ...fuck, I fell asleep typing that. Sorry.

  2. #722
    Epic! Alroxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anon5123 View Post
    It's pretty simple, really:
    Actually no it's not otherwise we would have had a solution by now. We are in the 3rd xpac that has M+ and yet we still don't have a Blizzard solution for M+ leavers so obviously it's not a simple problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by anon5123 View Post
    Bring back server community and social responsibility like vanilla has.
    The only way this works is if you remove the anonymity of group finder. Basically if you put someone on /ignore, it has to change to ignoring that ENTIRE account and not just 1 toon. This way, a character's rep suddenly becomes important because if enough people put you on /ignore then that's fewer people those bad/toxic players are able to group with.

    Quote Originally Posted by anon5123 View Post
    Leave a group while the timer is still going? 24 hour debuff preventing you from doing another key. And make it visible to other players so other people can see you're an asshole who leaves. But then won't people just /afk at the entrance and wait for the timer to run out? Plenty of ways to check for non-participation, like looking at amount of damage/healing done, distance from the rest of the group, etc.
    Lol. So what if I do "participate" but in a negative way? Let me go ahead and pull that extra 3 packs for the tank. Let me go ahead and NOT heal the tank but pump serious healing into myself (or aggro target that's not the tank) so on the meters I look amazing. Let me as a tank not pick up aggro that I dropped via Divine Shield or some other immunity. Basically do everything and anything that still shows me as "participating" but forcing someone else to leave the group first so they get the "debuff" but I can then quit safely without being affected.

    Quite a simple solution indeed... Or we can take Ion's suggestion: M+ is meant for groups of players who are either friends or guildmates so that there already exists a social contract that can penalize bad/toxic players.

    But my PuG? Hey this is a MMO, go make friends. If you want to solo the game, there are plenty of RPGs that are solo-based (i.e. Skyrim, Witcher, etc).
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  3. #723
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    Wrong. Please re-read my post, that's not what I said. The only way to measure skill in M+ is the timer. If you don't like the timer, find a game that doesn't have timed dungeons instead of complaining that Blizzard doesn't design the game around your singular voice.

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    Yes, I too will enjoy pulling 7 groups with cooldowns then waiting 8 minutes to do it again. This sounds like fun and exciting game play. Where do I sign u-

    ...fuck, I fell asleep typing that. Sorry.
    I never said I don’t like the timer, I was only thinking about finding something else and give that a try. Because it’s clear that 99% of M+ issues are caused by the timer.

  4. #724
    Elemental Lord clevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    At 1345, I get almost instant invites into 14 15s as a frost dk.
    Of course you do. If you get your IO up high enough, you're fine. It's the slog to do that which is painful for some specs. What do you need to do to get a high IO? Do lots of keys, right?* But if you're playing a spec that makes it hard to get lots of invites.... I'll leave the rest as and exercise to the reader.



    *and move their level up and time them, but...

  5. #725
    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    The only way this works is if you remove the anonymity of group finder. Basically if you put someone on /ignore, it has to change to ignoring that ENTIRE account and not just 1 toon.
    That's already happening. /ignore a friend and tell him to /whisper you with an alt.

  6. #726
    Elemental Lord clevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    ...Or we can take Ion's suggestion: M+ is meant for groups of players who are either friends or guildmates so that there already exists a social contract that can penalize bad/toxic players.

    But my PuG? Hey this is a MMO, go make friends. If you want to solo the game, there are plenty of RPGs that are solo-based (i.e. Skyrim, Witcher, etc).
    This is the basic issue. Too many people PUG too much content. Blizzard started this, though, in 3.3 when they a) introduced LFG, b) made it battlegroup-wide, not server wide and c) created daily heroics as an incentive. Of COURSE people PUGged because you were rewarded for doing heroics daily by the quest and, if you were having a hard time getting groups already, it was more reliable to PUG than to try to find a group manually. You could queue and go do other stuff or, if you healed or tanked, get insta-runs.

    The combination of all that made it perfectly possible to do content in a PUG AND it removed accountability because since the queue was battlegroup-wide, you'd never see those people again.

    If Ion wants to design content around groups of friends and/or guilds, they need to incentivize that. Right now, they don't. If you're a meme spec or willing to get your IO high enough, you can easily PUG keys so why bother doing all the social stuff?

  7. #727
    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    I never said I don’t like the timer, I was only thinking about finding something else and give that a try. Because it’s clear that 99% of M+ issues are caused by the timer.
    M+ is about the timer. It has always been about the timer. Before M+, there were CModes... which, guess what... had a timer. Most of the "99%" of "problems" you're attributing to M+'s timers aren't the fault of the timer. It's players blaming the timer for their own shortfalls. It's hard to say, "Man, I'm doing dogshit DPS, missing interrupts and playing like a boosted monkey," it's much easier to say, "fuck, I was so stressed by the timer that I forgot to time my CDs properly, missed an interrupt then got blown off the platform by an avoidable mechanic!" Be the guy that says the former, not the latter.
    Last edited by otaXephon; 2021-04-12 at 09:29 PM.

  8. #728
    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    I never said I don’t like the timer, I was only thinking about finding something else and give that a try. Because it’s clear that 99% of M+ issues are caused by the timer.
    The Timer isn't the issue, the "why should I waste my time" is the issue.

    Consider: +10 Tyrannical PF. First boss, and group for whatever reason can't make it. Slimes are loose, DMG sucks, and people can't move.

    Good on you if you want to stay, but expecting others to stay seems unrealistic.

    Perhaps if the timers stopped if a player left the group...but without thinking, I already can see how may be exploited.
    "Aren't you worried?"
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  9. #729
    Quote Originally Posted by Zatch4Ever View Post
    Anyone here who is good at developing addons? I can be your product owner and together we will develop the M+ Rater (TM)

    Basically, it's a 5 star rating system for each key that you are running. You would be able to rate other players from the group at two occasions, using an in-game overlay:

    * After defeating the last boss
    * At the moment the first player leaves the group before the last boss was defeated

    You could expand on that to rate class skill, dungeon knowledge and friendliness.

    Bye toxic.io and burn in hell where you belong to.
    This would be 100% more toxic than rio. Someone made a mistake? Downvote. Someone said something someone else didn't like? Downvote. Someone took a talent that's not meta? Downvote. Oh yeah and people won't just downvote "class skill"... you're a scrub and deserve a downvote in every category

    Rio isn't toxic, the community is. Rio is just a number, the community turns it into what it is.

  10. #730
    lots of bitching. i heal up to 20s. holy paladin. 14-15s are a complete joke if mechanics and interrupts happen. little to no healing going out. i dps most of the time. its when dps fail to mechanics........ tyrannical hard ROFL. its only harder on the healer. no one else. if you dont heal you really have no opinion on this matter. how is boss fights with more health hard on damage dealers? tyrannical needs to exist. you shit players dont que for a lot of dungeons on tyrannical week. i find far less group failures. fort is when all the baddies come "pushing" keystone master lol.

  11. #731
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    Of course you do. If you get your IO up high enough, you're fine. It's the slog to do that which is painful for some specs. What do you need to do to get a high IO? Do lots of keys, right?* But if you're playing a spec that makes it hard to get lots of invites.... I'll leave the rest as and exercise to the reader.



    *and move their level up and time them, but...
    You mean like playing a frost dk? Trust me, invites are hard for me too. But I created my own groups and pushed my own key

  12. #732
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivank0v View Post
    The Timer isn't the issue, the "why should I waste my time" is the issue.

    Consider: +10 Tyrannical PF. First boss, and group for whatever reason can't make it. Slimes are loose, DMG sucks, and people can't move.

    Good on you if you want to stay, but expecting others to stay seems unrealistic.

    Perhaps if the timers stopped if a player left the group...but without thinking, I already can see how may be exploited.
    Completely agree. People think leaving is toxic, and on occasion it can be but lets be honest most people know in the first few minutes if a run is going to be a disaster or not and if you can't tell it's normally because you are part of the disaster, a lot of people have limited time to play the game and normally have time constraints which they would rather not waste on a group that is destined to be in there for a long time. Healers are rarely the problem, it's almost always dps who can't do anything other than damage(sitting on same mob for a hour because you can't interrupt a heal), or tanks who don't know routes, or group bad meshing packs

  13. #733
    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    Lol. So what if I do "participate" but in a negative way?
    Then you get removed from the group.
    Lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    Or we can take Ion's suggestion: M+ is meant for groups of players who are either friends or guildmates so that there already exists a social contract that can penalize bad/toxic players.
    So if none of my friends or guildmates are on, that means I can't play the game.
    Glad you're not working for Blizzard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    But my PuG? Hey this is a MMO, go make friends. If you want to solo the game, there are plenty of RPGs that are solo-based (i.e. Skyrim, Witcher, etc).
    "nooo pugs BAD pugs BAD, everything must be friends and guilds or else that means you're trying to play solo!!!!"
    Big yikes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zatch4Ever View Post
    Anyone here who is good at developing addons? I can be your product owner and together we will develop the M+ Rater (TM)

    Basically, it's a 5 star rating system for each key that you are running. You would be able to rate other players from the group at two occasions, using an in-game overlay:

    * After defeating the last boss
    * At the moment the first player leaves the group before the last boss was defeated

    You could expand on that to rate class skill, dungeon knowledge and friendliness.

    Bye toxic.io and burn in hell where you belong to.
    Do you know how anonymous online reviewing works? Happy people are not inclined to rate 5 stars, but unhappy people ALWAYS will rate 1 star. Literally everyone's player profile would be littered with 1 star reviews, regardless of how good they are. And trying to coerce people to give positive ratings doesn't work either, because like Overwatch showed, people don't care and will just throw out positive ratings willy-nilly to get the rewards from them.

  14. #734
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivank0v View Post
    The Timer isn't the issue, the "why should I waste my time" is the issue.

    Consider: +10 Tyrannical PF. First boss, and group for whatever reason can't make it. Slimes are loose, DMG sucks, and people can't move.

    Good on you if you want to stay, but expecting others to stay seems unrealistic.

    Perhaps if the timers stopped if a player left the group...but without thinking, I already can see how may be exploited.
    As I said before, at least for me your scenario is not my average scenario. I ran over 80 M+ timed or not timed till now and the ones “we can’t even make first boss, let’s disband” have been maybe 10% of them.

    Yesterday I ran a HoA 14, timer ended at beginning of third boss, no prob, we finished it in par plus 7-8 minutes. It’s not we couldn’t make it, we couldn’t make it IN TIME. That’s the point.

    Really hopeless runs are not that many. But M+ is all about the timer so people leave at first wipe because they feel if they don’t beat it it’s not worth finish the dungeon. It’s not true because in the end you still have loot, anima and valor but it’s clearly just not enough.

    I understand the value of the timer but seeing the situation maybe they should give ppl “something” to push them completing dungeons even if they see they won’t make it in time, given time above par won’t be that huge.
    Last edited by chiddie; 2021-04-13 at 06:32 AM.

  15. #735
    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    But my PuG? Hey this is a MMO, go make friends. If you want to solo the game, there are plenty of RPGs that are solo-based (i.e. Skyrim, Witcher, etc).
    go make friends? all my friends have quit lol and they weren't up to par either... i've pugged my way to the rio score i have...

  16. #736
    Quote Originally Posted by Nite92 View Post
    An arbitrary comparison does rarely work in you favor of your argument, you can't compare so different things so easily.

    I'm sorry, but if +15s were done with 195 ilvl, and you cant do them with 215, it is a you problem.
    ddi you personaly do m+15 in 195 gear ? did anyone in your guild did it with 195 gear ? did literaly anyone in this thread did it with full team of 195 gear not getting carried with 195 by 226 itlv people in group ?

    can you pls stop spreading lies about general playerbase which should be doing +15 with 195 gear ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by scientific View Post
    Completely agree. People think leaving is toxic, and on occasion it can be but lets be honest most people know in the first few minutes if a run is going to be a disaster or not and if you can't tell it's normally because you are part of the disaster, a lot of people have limited time to play the game and normally have time constraints which they would rather not waste on a group that is destined to be in there for a long time. Healers are rarely the problem, it's almost always dps who can't do anything other than damage(sitting on same mob for a hour because you can't interrupt a heal), or tanks who don't know routes, or group bad meshing packs
    ye no - i disagree with this strongly - same liek with people saying that tanks are not the problem

    i have seen so many runs break due to tank/healer being undergeared and just dying/not being able to keep people up

    i have yet to see a single +13/14 fail when literaly full group is 220 without even a single memeber below

    u have seen so many +12/13 break because for example dps were 215 but healer being 205 and not keeping people alive.

    mistakes happen - yes they shouldnt happen - but geared people can offset it.

  17. #737
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    u have seen so many +12/13 break because for example dps were 215 but healer being 205 and not keeping people alive.

    mistakes happen - yes they shouldnt happen - but geared people can offset it.
    if the healer is not able to keep up you are taking too much damage... start avoiding damage... the healer should have to do max 3k hps in a +12... higher than that and you're taking massive amounts of avoidable damage...

  18. #738
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    ddi you personaly do m+15 in 195 gear ? did anyone in your guild did it with 195 gear ? did literaly anyone in this thread did it with full team of 195 gear not getting carried with 195 by 226 itlv people in group ?

    can you pls stop spreading lies about general playerbase which should be doing +15 with 195 gear ?
    Please read, comprehend, and then answer.
    I never said that everyone is doing +15s in 195. I said that, +15s with 210-215 ilvl are pretty easy.

    I got by ksm achievement back in early jannuary with roughly 215 ilvl, when our characters were weaker, missing alot of power from our soulbinds. And a lot of it was done with a non meta comp. Shadowpriest, warlock and monk tank were in there for most our first 15s.
    No need for large pulls, you can just do it pack by pack and quite comfortably time it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sugarcube View Post
    if the healer is not able to keep up you are taking too much damage... start avoiding damage... the healer should have to do max 3k hps in a +12... higher than that and you're taking massive amounts of avoidable damage...
    What is that random nonsense number. Overall dps/hps in a dungeon is useless information unless you know which dungeon/pulls were made.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    I never said I don’t like the timer, I was only thinking about finding something else and give that a try. Because it’s clear that 99% of M+ issues are caused by the timer.
    Why always these asspull numbers. They only weaken your argument. M+ would be the worst thing without a timer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    Yes but also no. Many people leave at first wipe, even if it’s after 5 minutes. This is insane.
    So what? I am allowed to leave. Especially if the run is a miserable experience.

  19. #739
    Quote Originally Posted by Nite92 View Post


    What is that random nonsense number. Overall dps/hps in a dungeon is useless information unless you know which dungeon/pulls were made.
    no its not... most people in +12 aren't doing any weird or big pulls and are doing 1 to 1 pack pulls... it's instantly noticeable when people are taking avoidable damage on the hps you have to do...

  20. #740
    Quote Originally Posted by Sugarcube View Post
    no its not... most people in +12 aren't doing any weird or big pulls and are doing 1 to 1 pack pulls...
    I dunno what to say. You are just incorrect. There is a reason why people dont care about wcl rankings for dungeons.

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