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  1. #741
    Quote Originally Posted by Nite92 View Post
    I dunno what to say. You are just incorrect. There is a reason why people dont care about wcl rankings for dungeons.
    i'm not talking about wcl rankings... i am talking about details... if you are at 6k hps in a +12... then the group is taking too much damage... and if the healer can't outheal all the damage you're taking... then the blame is on you for taking so much damage... most people in lower keys are getting hard carried by the healer because they're taking way too much avoidable damage... if they had a healer on their own skill level then they wouldn't make it through the dungeon... on my worst run so far this season i've had someone take 800k failure damage according to the eh addon... my hps that run was 6.5k in a +12... that guy had the audacity to flame me for him dying... rest of the group was at 20-50k damage... if he hadn't been the tank he would have died far more times from that amount of avoidable damage taken...

    i have since then just started to leave groups where the damage taken from avoidable sources is that high... i'm not sticking around with those people...
    Last edited by Sugarcube; 2021-04-13 at 09:58 AM.

  2. #742
    its so sweet how ppl go like „i really cant understand why Blizzard not offering anything...“ or „since they not offered a solution it seems not that easy“.

    omfg, if i would work at Blizzard i would laugh my ass of these idiots.

    look: they DONT wanna fix this at all. it not just stretches their content/subs, it also supports boost groups selling M+. and how ppl pay that grps ? with gold ofc. so they go and buy a token. and Blizz sells a Token and make 7 bugs profit for free. its called smart cash grab systems. are you guys that stupid that you dont realize this ?

    just for the sake of clarification: the prerequisite that some guy can buy a token on AH is, that another guy had put in a Token into the AH first. this means blizz dont get the 13 bugs of the one buying the token, but 20 bugs of the one that had put it into the AH. this means in short: Blizz earns 7 bugs for free, by doing nothing, for every token ever passing the AH. and their game design supports a good amount of token transfer since years. m+ and leavers is just one aspect of it. they simply support their cash grab system. did you not realize that ???

    so, ofc they can fix it. in an blink of an eye. but they DONT WANT that. obviously.

    cant understand how so many ppl be that blind/stupid.
    Last edited by Sonnillon; 2021-04-14 at 05:45 AM. Reason: Infracted

  3. #743
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    Wrong. Please re-read my post, that's not what I said. The only way to measure skill in M+ is the timer. If you don't like the timer, find a game that doesn't have timed dungeons instead of complaining that Blizzard doesn't design the game around your singular voice.

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    Yes, I too will enjoy pulling 7 groups with cooldowns then waiting 8 minutes to do it again. This sounds like fun and exciting game play. Where do I sign u-

    ...fuck, I fell asleep typing that. Sorry.
    If the content is designed around it, the timer is not the only way to measure skill - look Mage Tower for example. Also you can still still have timer for bragging rights / cosmetics. Removing it from the "completion" requirement for the key changes nothing for the "competitive M+" - keys above 14 are just done only for the bragging rights / self progress so the timers are perfectly fine for just having a score / ranking / achievement.

    Below 15 do you really care if some random pug group wants to spend 5h in one dungeons lusting on every pack? RIO already shows appropriate points difference between a group that +3 that dungeon over someone who failed the timer by an hour.

    The "slow pug" will not be bothered to go above 14, as there are no additional rewards for them, nothing changes for people pushing keys in a dedicated group for the fun and glory of it - they will still be doing their push to get +28 done in time for those sweet sweet RIO points.

  4. #744
    Quote Originally Posted by Ludek View Post
    If the content is designed around it, the timer is not the only way to measure skill - look Mage Tower for example. Also you can still still have timer for bragging rights / cosmetics. Removing it from the "completion" requirement for the key changes nothing for the "competitive M+" - keys above 14 are just done only for the bragging rights / self progress so the timers are perfectly fine for just having a score / ranking / achievement.

    Below 15 do you really care if some random pug group wants to spend 5h in one dungeons lusting on every pack? RIO already shows appropriate points difference between a group that +3 that dungeon over someone who failed the timer by an hour.

    The "slow pug" will not be bothered to go above 14, as there are no additional rewards for them, nothing changes for people pushing keys in a dedicated group for the fun and glory of it - they will still be doing their push to get +28 done in time for those sweet sweet RIO points.
    mage tower wasn't about skill... a friend of mine said he just spammed feint with legendary legs and he couldn't die...

  5. #745
    Quote Originally Posted by Nite92 View Post
    Please read, comprehend, and then answer.
    I never said that everyone is doing +15s in 195. I said that, +15s with 210-215 ilvl are pretty easy.

    I got by ksm achievement back in early jannuary with roughly 215 ilvl, when our characters were weaker, missing alot of power from our soulbinds. And a lot of it was done with a non meta comp. Shadowpriest, warlock and monk tank were in there for most our first 15s.
    No need for large pulls, you can just do it pack by pack and quite comfortably time it.

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    What is that random nonsense number. Overall dps/hps in a dungeon is useless information unless you know which dungeon/pulls were made.

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    Why always these asspull numbers. They only weaken your argument. M+ would be the worst thing without a timer.

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    So what? I am allowed to leave. Especially if the run is a miserable experience.
    You can’t tell if it will be miserable after 5 minutes. You can sometimes tell you probably won’t time it, but not timing is different from “miserable experience”.

  6. #746
    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    You can’t tell if it will be miserable after 5 minutes. You can sometimes tell you probably won’t time it, but not timing is different from “miserable experience”.
    yes you can... when you have done 1000s of runs you will easy be able to tell if people know what they are doing or not and if it will be miserable or not...

  7. #747
    If you consistently aren't timing keys, you are the problem one way or the other. I dont mean the 1 or 2 times it happens, im talking multiple times a week. If you're the leader, you arent forming groups correctly. If you're the tank, your route or survivability sucks. If you're the healer, you aren't keeping ppl alive or contributing to dps / utility. If you're the dps, you aren't doing enough damage or interrupts.

    Its easy to blame others but the common denominator is you. If +15s, 1 wipe doesn't mean a failed key, but 2 wipes will with average groups going at the average pace. Figure out what you can do better. Rotate cds.

    If you dont like the timer that's fine. Make that clear up front. Dont cry on the forums for its removal. Cry on the forums or a separate mode for you if you really think there's enough players like you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    You can’t tell if it will be miserable after 5 minutes. You can sometimes tell you probably won’t time it, but not timing is different from “miserable experience”.
    When there's 2 full wipes before first boss of NW during the easiest trash, you can tell its gonna be a shitshow lol

  8. #748
    Light comes from darkness shise's Avatar
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    Instead of the silly Raider IO, an addon called leaver IO.
    There.

  9. #749
    Quote Originally Posted by shise View Post
    Instead of the silly Raider IO, an addon called leaver IO.
    There.
    What do you find silly about raider io?

  10. #750
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    What do you find silly about raider io?
    the thing i find silly about it is that it doesn't tell about peoples actual performance... when doing my weekly keys on alts i run into people who have like 1.3-1.4k rio who are doing less dps than my 180 rogue... in 210+ gear...

  11. #751
    Quote Originally Posted by Sugarcube View Post
    i'm not talking about wcl rankings... i am talking about details... if you are at 6k hps in a +12... then the group is taking too much damage... and if the healer can't outheal all the damage you're taking... then the blame is on you for taking so much damage... most people in lower keys are getting hard carried by the healer because they're taking way too much avoidable damage... if they had a healer on their own skill level then they wouldn't make it through the dungeon... on my worst run so far this season i've had someone take 800k failure damage according to the eh addon... my hps that run was 6.5k in a +12... that guy had the audacity to flame me for him dying... rest of the group was at 20-50k damage... if he hadn't been the tank he would have died far more times from that amount of avoidable damage taken...

    i have since then just started to leave groups where the damage taken from avoidable sources is that high... i'm not sticking around with those people...
    I’m a healer too in the 13-14 bracket and when I see that my hps is constantly above 3.5k I can immediately tell that something is going wrong and we won’t time the key. Prediction is usually correct 9 times on 10 (11 on 10 if paired with average 3.5k dps from dps).

    We can cover mistakes only up to a certain point, if ppl go hero-nearzero in 2 seconds constantly they cannot pretend to be always brought nearzero to hero in other 2 seconds, every pull, 5 times a pull.

    This is specially bad with stacking weekly affixes. “Hey I only had 50 stacks of necrotic why didn’t you heal?”. Go figure.

  12. #752
    Quote Originally Posted by Sugarcube View Post
    the thing i find silly about it is that it doesn't tell about peoples actual performance... when doing my weekly keys on alts i run into people who have like 1.3-1.4k rio who are doing less dps than my 180 rogue... in 210+ gear...
    True but not sure how it could track that. I like that I can look at their profile to see what runs were done, how many were timed, the level, the ilvl of everyone in group, the affixes, and all of that. A lot of useful information in there

  13. #753
    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    I’m a healer too in the 13-14 bracket and when I see that my hps is constantly above 3.5k I can immediately tell that something is going wrong and we won’t time the key. Prediction is usually correct 9 times on 10 (11 on 10 if paired with average 3.5k dps from dps).

    We can cover mistakes only up to a certain point, if ppl go hero-nearzero in 2 seconds constantly they cannot pretend to be always brought nearzero to hero in other 2 seconds, every pull, 5 times a pull.

    This is specially bad with stacking weekly affixes. “Hey I only had 50 stacks of necrotic why didn’t you heal?”. Go figure.
    Yup, can agree with this. My hps is usually higher in 14s with randoms then 22s-23s with the group of friends i run with.

    Randoms in lfg are the actual worst players. Get friends, stress goes down and keys go up. Ez

  14. #754
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    yeah - "you did it" - players who are in what ? top 1% of wow players.

    now you extrapolate your resoults on general playerbase ?

    thats like me saying that you shoudl bench press 120 kg in series without breaking a sweat because i and plenty other people around world have no problem to do so .

    this is what i hate about wow forums - everyone treats anyone who is even remotely less skilled then they as absolute trash - while those who are above them as "lol-nolifers lol get life " .
    According to Data for Azeroth, it's about 10% have KSM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stormbreed View Post
    Mexico is already part of the USA so is Canada
    Quote Originally Posted by Shandalar View Post
    Shadow deserves nothing, the same as Fire Mages.

  15. #755
    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    Really hopeless runs are not that many. But M+ is all about the timer so people leave at first wipe because they feel if they don’t beat it it’s not worth finish the dungeon. It’s not true because in the end you still have loot, anima and valor but it’s clearly just not enough.
    Timer is a pressure point, but certainly not a root cause.

    You can look into M+ as:
    Timing is too rewarding: Fast clear, more items, key upgrade, rio score and KSM progress
    Not timing is under rewarding: key downgrade, no TF means lower ilvl, no score in most cases and slow clear.

    I do not advocate changing rewards tho, besides adding something for high end. It's just that it's hard to do something about it and not cuck other content up. Any sort of arena rating system would essentially kill pugging really hard and invite even more toxicity. It would be really nice for organized m+ groups tho.

  16. #756
    Quote Originally Posted by AwkwardSquirtle View Post
    According to Data for Azeroth, it's about 10% have KSM.
    Is that 10% of all accounts, or 10% of players that do m+? Cause if its all accounts, then actual % of players that "do" m+ would be way higher right lol. Let's say 1/3 of players regularly do m+, that would mean 30% of players that do m+ get ksm. Higher than I thought tbh

  17. #757
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    When there's 2 full wipes before first boss of NW during the easiest trash, you can tell its gonna be a shitshow lol
    lol... just tried to do a +14 hoa on an alt... the tank wanted a shroud at the start to skip... rogue uses shroud... someone manages to pull with shroud up... the tank just left lol... how the fuck do people even manage to pull when shroud is up?
    Last edited by Sugarcube; 2021-04-13 at 11:00 AM.

  18. #758
    Quote Originally Posted by Sugarcube View Post
    lol... just tried to do a +14 hoa... the tank wanted a shroud at the start to skip... rogue uses shroud... someone manages to pull with shroud up... the tank just left lol... how the fuck do people even manage to pull when shroud is up?
    There are a lot of ppl that think stealth and invisibility are the same lol. Only experience they have is popping invisibility pot and running a straight line thru mobs. You'd think by +14 they would know better

  19. #759
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    Is that 10% of all accounts, or 10% of players that do m+? Cause if its all accounts, then actual % of players that "do" m+ would be way higher right lol. Let's say 1/3 of players regularly do m+, that would mean 30% of players that do m+ get ksm. Higher than I thought tbh
    10% of all players. For reference, it says 25% have Keystone Explorer which I'd say is a decent identifier of players who "actually does m+". If that assumption is correct, then it's about 40%.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stormbreed View Post
    Mexico is already part of the USA so is Canada
    Quote Originally Posted by Shandalar View Post
    Shadow deserves nothing, the same as Fire Mages.

  20. #760
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    If you consistently aren't timing keys, you are the problem one way or the other. I dont mean the 1 or 2 times it happens, im talking multiple times a week. If you're the leader, you arent forming groups correctly. If you're the tank, your route or survivability sucks. If you're the healer, you aren't keeping ppl alive or contributing to dps / utility. If you're the dps, you aren't doing enough damage or interrupts.

    Its easy to blame others but the common denominator is you. If +15s, 1 wipe doesn't mean a failed key, but 2 wipes will with average groups going at the average pace. Figure out what you can do better. Rotate cds.

    If you dont like the timer that's fine. Make that clear up front. Dont cry on the forums for its removal. Cry on the forums or a separate mode for you if you really think there's enough players like you.

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    When there's 2 full wipes before first boss of NW during the easiest trash, you can tell its gonna be a shitshow lol
    This reminds me of a weird NW run I had one month ago where timer finished BEFORE we reached Amarth. I know I should have left at second wipe at Blightbone but I was curious to see how bad it could go XD.

    They even got mad because I left when we wiped (surprise) at Amarth XD.

    But apart from these extreme cases, it’s not that all non timed runs are miserable per se, as I said failing the timer by 5 to 10 minutes is not miserable at all.

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