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  1. #801
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    Dungeons can't "win." The entire idea of surrendering a dungeon is ridiculous. This isn't League of Legends, knock it off.
    If dungeons can't win, why do people fail keys?

    I'm not trying to turn it into League. I'm trying to give r.io a way to track people that quit. People can still quit, but at least you'll see how many times someone leaves a dungeon to determine if you don't want to invite them.

    That's all. Nothing to prevent you from leaving. Just a formalized process for M+ to give up as a group.

  2. #802
    Pandaren Monk Sugarcube's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveZaer View Post
    If dungeons can't win, why do people fail keys?

    I'm not trying to turn it into League. I'm trying to give r.io a way to track people that quit. People can still quit, but at least you'll see how many times someone leaves a dungeon to determine if you don't want to invite them.

    That's all. Nothing to prevent you from leaving. Just a formalized process for M+ to give up as a group.
    lol... people would just afk and let others leave first...

  3. #803
    Quote Originally Posted by SteveZaer View Post
    If dungeons can't win, why do people fail keys?

    I'm not trying to turn it into League. I'm trying to give r.io a way to track people that quit. People can still quit, but at least you'll see how many times someone leaves a dungeon to determine if you don't want to invite them.

    That's all. Nothing to prevent you from leaving. Just a formalized process for M+ to give up as a group.
    wouldnt work - because people would just fake dc and then log in to another alt. forcing other to also fake dc or to leave and recive penalty

    thats why that wasnt implemented in first place i guess

  4. #804
    Free Food!?!?! Tziva's Avatar
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    How many games with a "surrender" type option have you seen people who have determined they are going to lose just stop participating and demand everyone use it? Even in WoW BGs where there is literally no penalty for failure and you still get a small reward for a loss, half the team will just demand people "lose quick" and stop playing so they can get out and get into the next game. It sucks for people who are there to play rather than just grind honour. It's incredibly naive to think it won't happen in keys when they aren't going well. People will hold the group hostage with inactivity or griefing until the others confirm the surrender. I'm not sure how that is an improvement on the current situation where people just leave and those there for completion still are stuck starting over from scratch.

    I get that people don't like their time wasted by leavers killing a key but most of these proposed fixes wouldn't improving things and in some cases would make everything work.

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  5. #805
    Pandaren Monk Sugarcube's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tziva View Post
    How many games with a "surrender" type option have you seen people who have determined they are going to lose just stop participating and demand everyone use it? Even in WoW BGs where there is literally no penalty for failure and you still get a small reward for a loss, half the team will just demand people "lose quick" and stop playing so they can get out and get into the next game. It sucks for people who are there to play rather than just grind honour. It's incredibly naive to think it won't happen in keys when they aren't going well. People will hold the group hostage with inactivity or griefing until the others confirm the surrender. I'm not sure how that is an improvement on the current situation where people just leave and those there for completion still are stuck starting over from scratch.

    I get that people don't like their time wasted by leavers killing a key but most of these proposed fixes wouldn't improving things and in some cases would make everything work.
    omg... fuck surrender in league... people were fighting in base... i was at the enemy base and towers were down... our towers were down too... they were 5v4 in our base... one person died and they instantly surrendered... i was killing their base and they surrendered because one person died... "gg its over"... only because you surrendered... a few more seconds and we would have won because i would have killed their base...

    i think that was my last game in league...

    i was also kicked from a dungeon on my dk when people died on mueh'zala when he was on low hp... i stayed alive on my dk and they were just screaming at me to die so they can go again... wtf... he'll be dead soon... nope... they kicked me... i imagine some group would just disband in a case like this in m+ if they were like them...
    Last edited by Sugarcube; 2021-04-25 at 09:17 PM.

  6. #806
    Quote Originally Posted by Tziva View Post
    How many games with a "surrender" type option have you seen people who have determined they are going to lose just stop participating and demand everyone use it? Even in WoW BGs where there is literally no penalty for failure and you still get a small reward for a loss, half the team will just demand people "lose quick" and stop playing so they can get out and get into the next game. It sucks for people who are there to play rather than just grind honour. It's incredibly naive to think it won't happen in keys when they aren't going well. People will hold the group hostage with inactivity or griefing until the others confirm the surrender. I'm not sure how that is an improvement on the current situation where people just leave and those there for completion still are stuck starting over from scratch.

    I get that people don't like their time wasted by leavers killing a key but most of these proposed fixes wouldn't improving things and in some cases would make everything work.
    In WoW BGs, specifically, since you're rewarded for a small loss, if you have a history of not winning the most efficient strategy will always be do the bare minimum then let the other team win. That's how you maximize your rewards/hour.

    Having a long, drawn out, nail biter game might be fun (even if you lose) but most people don't play the game for the fun of playing the game. They play the game for the loot.

    The specific problem you're describing is how everything is a meta game now. Just look at WoW's original launch vs WoW Classic.

    But it already happens in keys. Key isn't going well? Just leave, there's no consequence to leaving. The only thing you've lost is your time finding another group.

    The only difference between someone leaving and forcing you to surrender vote is that at least you have a say in them trying to force the surrender vote.

    Personally, I feel like it's better to have some kind of consequence than no consequence because no consequence means, oh, this isn't going how I planned? Time to DC/leave which isn't much of a difference in the result.

    Also, DCs could be tracked differently than leaving but it is easy enough to fake a DC.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Sugarcube View Post
    i was also kicked from a dungeon on my dk when people died on mueh'zala when he was on low hp... i stayed alive on my dk and they were just screaming at me to die so they can go again... wtf... he'll be dead soon... nope... they kicked me... i imagine some group would just disband in a case like this in m+ if they were like them...
    Yeah, they'd just leave in a M+ key. I've seen people leave on the last boss of M+ (because the time wasn't good enough) and it's better to leave than damage your score with a bad run.

    Right now we effectively have solo surrender. Things aren't going your way in M+? Would you rather do something else? No problem, just leave the party.
    Last edited by SteveZaer; 2021-04-25 at 10:06 PM.

  7. #807
    Free Food!?!?! Tziva's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveZaer View Post
    In WoW BGs, specifically, since you're rewarded for a small loss, if you have a history of not winning the most efficient strategy will always be do the bare minimum then let the other team win. That's how you maximize your rewards/hour.
    I know that, but for the people who are there to actually play the content and not to "maximise rewards per hour" it's not particularly enjoyable to just throw games and especially encounter people every single match demanding you do so and refusing to participate to speed up the process. In any case, the point is that people in this game already have a propensity for demanding other people give up when things aren't going how they want, and AFKing or griefing to persuade those players to do so already happens without a system that encourages it. If you add a surrender option to M+, it's just going to happen there as well and probably with even greater frequency.

    But it already happens in keys. Key isn't going well? Just leave, there's no consequence to leaving. The only thing you've lost is your time finding another group.

    The only difference between someone leaving and forcing you to surrender vote is that at least you have a say in them trying to force the surrender vote.

    Personally, I feel like it's better to have some kind of consequence than no consequence because no consequence means, oh, this isn't going how I planned? Time to DC/leave which isn't much of a difference in the result.
    Except you don't really have a say in a surrender vote if the other players have decided they are going to stop participating if everyone doesn't also vote that way. Just like what we see happen in other contexts.

    At least now when people decide they are done with a key, they leave, the key is instantly dead, all you've lost is some time and you can move on right away. You start complicating that system by punishing people for leaving then you start to cause workaround behaviour so they can achieve the same results without the consequences, like faking DCing, refusing to participate, or griefing groups so that other people leave first.

    Ultimately in the end you have the same result (a disbanded party and some wasted time) except a lot more convoluted path to get there. Personally I'd rather deal with someone dropping from the group after we wipe than waste extra time with a fight because people are arguing over whether to surrender, or a disbanded group that took even more time to fall apart because everyone continued to kill trash and move through the dungeon in case the disconnect was legit and that person come back.

    Ultimately none of these solutions actually prevent the problem from happening, and in many situations make the problem worse or introduce punitive measures that could inadvertently punish innocent people who left groups because some other asshole made it impossible to finish them.

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  8. #808
    Quote Originally Posted by Tziva View Post
    I know that, but for the people who are there to actually play the content and not to "maximise rewards per hour" it's not particularly enjoyable to just throw games and especially encounter people every single match demanding you do so and refusing to participate to speed up the process. In any case, the point is that people in this game already have a propensity for demanding other people give up when things aren't going how they want, and AFKing or griefing to persuade those players to do so already happens without a system that encourages it. If you add a surrender option to M+, it's just going to happen there as well and probably with even greater frequency.
    People in every game have that propensity. Why bother to continue playing if you can just RNG a new game and a new start? To a degree, it makes sense.

    The thing is, unlike BGs, M+ already has a surrender system. It's just solo surrender. Things aren't going your way? Just leave. You don't like the route? Just leave. Nothing happens, no consequence and the M+ community is large enough that you probably won't run into anyone that recognizes your behavior.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tziva View Post
    Except you don't really have a say in a surrender vote if the other players have decided they are going to stop participating if everyone doesn't also vote that way. Just like what we see happen in other contexts.

    At least now when people decide they are done with a key, they leave, the key is instantly dead, all you've lost is some time and you can move on right away. You start complicating that system by punishing people for leaving then you start to cause workaround behaviour so they can achieve the same results without the consequences, like faking DCing, refusing to participate, or griefing groups so that other people leave first.

    Ultimately in the end you have the same result (a disbanded party and some wasted time) except a lot more convoluted path to get there. Personally I'd rather deal with someone dropping from the group after we wipe than waste extra time with a fight because people are arguing over whether to surrender, or a disbanded group that took even more time to fall apart because everyone continued to kill trash and move through the dungeon in case the disconnect was legit and that person come back.

    Ultimately none of these solutions actually prevent the problem from happening, and in many situations make the problem worse or introduce punitive measures that could inadvertently punish innocent people who left groups because some other asshole made it impossible to finish them.
    That's why we need to put reasonable conditions over a surrender system (and it probably shouldn't be called a surrender system). Alternatively, you can use r.io stats to figure out leavers indirectly. Basically if you see people that don't have many key depletes, they basically bail when things don't go well, so I guess there is that.

  9. #809
    Pandaren Monk Sugarcube's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveZaer View Post

    That's why we need to put reasonable conditions over a surrender system (and it probably shouldn't be called a surrender system). Alternatively, you can use r.io stats to figure out leavers indirectly. Basically if you see people that don't have many key depletes, they basically bail when things don't go well, so I guess there is that.
    people don't bail when things don't go well... people bail when the group is hopeless because there's one or more people in the group that are playing keys beyond their skill level... it's immediately noticeable for people who have done a lot of keys over the seasons... or they bail because of flamers... but the former is the most common...

    like i left a +14 on my priest earlier... was just doing keys for vault... the tank pulls mobs into the boss and i just said "wipe fast" when they bolstered... didn't wipe fast... why should i stay with them if they're going to continue fighting against a boss with bolster? i can't heal that... just a waste of time to fight it because we'll die the moment i go oom from having to heal bolster during a boss...
    Last edited by Sugarcube; 2021-04-25 at 10:35 PM.

  10. #810
    Quote Originally Posted by Sugarcube View Post
    people don't bail when things don't go well... people bail when the group is hopeless because there's one or more people in the group that are playing keys beyond their skill level... it's immediately noticeable for people who have done a lot of keys over the seasons... or they bail because of flamers... but the former is the most common...

    like i left a +14 on my priest earlier... was just doing keys for vault... the tank pulls mobs into the boss and i just said "wipe fast" when they bolstered... didn't wipe fast... why should i stay with them if they're going to continue fighting against a boss with bolster? i can't heal that... just a waste of time to fight it because we'll die the moment i go oom from having to heal bolster during a boss...
    But, to be clear, nothing would be stopping you from leaving. If you don't leave a ton of a dungeons leaving a dungeon here or there would be considered reasonable.

    Also, you're a healer, so you could probably get away with leaving dungeons whenever you wanted because there's just not enough healers/tanks for the amount of DPS out there.

    I also have no doubt that your willingness to leave is because you're a healer and know you can just nope out because you'll instantly get another group.

  11. #811
    Pandaren Monk Sugarcube's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveZaer View Post
    But, to be clear, nothing would be stopping you from leaving. If you don't leave a ton of a dungeons leaving a dungeon here or there would be considered reasonable.

    Also, you're a healer, so you could probably get away with leaving dungeons whenever you wanted because there's just not enough healers/tanks for the amount of DPS out there.

    I also have no doubt that your willingness to leave is because you're a healer and know you can just nope out because you'll instantly get another group.
    i would leave even if i was dps in that situation... people need to get better at playing if they want people to not leave their groups... i really have no patience for people playing as if it's their first time doing m+ when they are in keys that are above 10... for some it's like it's their first time doing the dungeons as well... like when i was still getting my paladin up... necrotic wake +12... tanking it... on stitchflesh... first hook misses... second hook misses... third hook misses... fourth hook misses... divine shield and hearthstone... why are they in a +12 if they don't know how to aim the hook on stitchflesh... they should go back to normal dungeon and practice until they know the dungeons rather than expect people to put up with them learning while doing keys...
    Last edited by Sugarcube; 2021-04-25 at 11:45 PM.

  12. #812
    Quote Originally Posted by Sugarcube View Post
    i would leave even if i was dps in that situation... people need to get better at playing if they want people to not leave their groups... i really have no patience for people playing as if it's their first time doing m+ when they are in keys that are above 10... for some it's like it's their first time doing the dungeons as well... like when i was still getting my paladin up... necrotic wake +12... tanking it... on stitchflesh... first hook misses... second hook misses... third hook misses... fourth hook misses... divine shield and hearthstone... why are they in a +12 if they don't know how to aim the hook on stitchflesh... they should go back to normal dungeon and practice until they know the dungeons rather than expect people to put up with them learning while doing keys...
    But why would you even quit at that point? You're just 2 bosses away from the end and there's no trash after that boss. Especially at that point, you're so far invested in that dungeon that even a clean run would take longer to finish.

  13. #813
    Pandaren Monk Sugarcube's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveZaer View Post
    But why would you even quit at that point? You're just 2 bosses away from the end and there's no trash after that boss. Especially at that point, you're so far invested in that dungeon that even a clean run would take longer to finish.
    i don't care how far we are into a dungeon when i want to leave... i'll leave even on the last boss if people do similar stuff... like i left +14 top on last boss... tank just kept dying to avoidable stuff and got combat ressed until we ran out of combat resses and then we wiped... i just left at that point... no doubt that he would die again if i stayed for more tries and then it would be instantly wipe due to no combat resses left... he's not going to magically become a god at avoiding those things next try if he kept dying to the same things every time he got combat ressed...

    i have since long stopped staying in instances due to being in them a long time when people clearly don't know how to play... last time i stayed in an instance and tried because i had been there so long it ended up with 30 minutes on the last boss and we still didn't kill it and then people left... since then i promised myself that i will never stick around when people don't know how to play any more...

    those people in that necrotic wake wouldn't suddenly become gods at aiming the hook if i had stayed and tried again after wipe...

    in higher keys if people do stupid stuff like this constantly everyone just agrees that the key is over and leaves...

    if people want a run full of people playing bad until finish they should advertise it as such... not lure people in under false premises... i never join keys advertised as weekly because they are filled with bad people... but then you have people who expect a weekly run but doesn't advertise it as such and then they get pissed when people leave because people are playing exceptionally bad...

    i guess that's the downside of becoming better at the game than when i started playing... i don't have patience for people playing bad any more...
    Last edited by Sugarcube; 2021-04-26 at 02:00 AM.

  14. #814
    Deserter scalable up to 14 days would be enough.

  15. #815
    Quote Originally Posted by Sugarcube View Post
    i don't care how far we are into a dungeon when i want to leave... i'll leave even on the last boss if people do similar stuff... like i left +14 top on last boss... tank just kept dying to avoidable stuff and got combat ressed until we ran out of combat resses and then we wiped... i just left at that point... no doubt that he would die again if i stayed for more tries and then it would be instantly wipe due to no combat resses left... he's not going to magically become a god at avoiding those things next try if he kept dying to the same things every time he got combat ressed...

    i have since long stopped staying in instances due to being in them a long time when people clearly don't know how to play... last time i stayed in an instance and tried because i had been there so long it ended up with 30 minutes on the last boss and we still didn't kill it and then people left... since then i promised myself that i will never stick around when people don't know how to play any more...

    those people in that necrotic wake wouldn't suddenly become gods at aiming the hook if i had stayed and tried again after wipe...

    in higher keys if people do stupid stuff like this constantly everyone just agrees that the key is over and leaves...

    if people want a run full of people playing bad until finish they should advertise it as such... not lure people in under false premises... i never join keys advertised as weekly because they are filled with bad people... but then you have people who expect a weekly run but doesn't advertise it as such and then they get pissed when people leave because people are playing exceptionally bad...

    i guess that's the downside of becoming better at the game than when i started playing... i don't have patience for people playing bad any more...
    Yeah but you aren't even giving them a chance, explaining the mechanic, or anything. I feel like you should at least be open to trying a second time. Like I've stated, if you're on the last boss, you've already sank at least 30 minutes into the dungeon. Giving it a few more chances is actually a better use of your time Especially if they generally performed well enough in the dungeon to get that far.

    30 minutes is excessive, but you could at least say, "I'm willing to give this 2 to 3 more attempts."

  16. #816
    tbh i think the in game io score can help here, when ever you leave a unfinished key points get deducted from your score like in arena and the more you leave in lets say a week the higher the deductions get if io hunters what to bail on keys because its not going to be on time the can pay with their points

  17. #817
    I don't see what you will gain by forcing players into a run they don't see as doable anymore. Wipe 3 times. Key won't get finsihed. Why bother doing it at all?

    I get if it is only to get a weekly chest. But you can write that when you queue the key and only people who don't care about timing will queue for it.

    Otherwise? You will just create people who will NOT leave for fear of repercussions but instead play just bad enough so blizz cannot reprimand them for throwing but not good enough that anyone will have fun or you will be able to finsih the key.

    Mythic+ keys are not build so you can finish every single one. ESPECIALLY in pugs where you don't even get a training effect with your team as you will never play with these people again.

  18. #818
    Pandaren Monk Sugarcube's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveZaer View Post
    Yeah but you aren't even giving them a chance, explaining the mechanic, or anything. I feel like you should at least be open to trying a second time. Like I've stated, if you're on the last boss, you've already sank at least 30 minutes into the dungeon. Giving it a few more chances is actually a better use of your time Especially if they generally performed well enough in the dungeon to get that far.

    30 minutes is excessive, but you could at least say, "I'm willing to give this 2 to 3 more attempts."
    they should have learned the mechanics in normal mythic dungeons... not in +14... i still encounter some people in 18 and 19s that have no clue how the dungeon works...
    Last edited by Sugarcube; 2021-04-26 at 12:23 PM.

  19. #819
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveZaer View Post
    Yeah but you aren't even giving them a chance, explaining the mechanic."
    A +14 with random is not the place for that, period. Don't expect people you don't know to hold your hand and carry you for free.

    You PUG keys ? Learn the fucking dungeons ! Really as simple as that.
    Key failure at this level is 90% because of lazy players who don't give a fuck about playing properly.
    Last edited by Ealyssa; 2021-04-26 at 12:28 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by primalmatter View Post
    nazi is not the abbreviation of national socialism....
    When googling 4 letters is asking too much fact-checking.

  20. #820
    Quote Originally Posted by Ealyssa View Post
    A +14 with random is not the place for that, period. Don't expect people you don't know to hold your hand and carry you for free.

    You PUG keys ? Learn the fucking dungeons ! Really as simple as that.
    Key failure at this level is 90% because of lazy players who don't give a fuck about playing properly.
    i agree if you dont know how to deal wiht mechanics by that point you should go back to doing +5s imo

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