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  1. #821
    The Patient
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    This is going to be a very unpopular opinion but I think the community needs to take matters into their own hands and come up with a solution to curb the sheer amount of toxic behaviour and key abandonment in Mythic+. Blizzard as we currently know them aren't gonna do crap because they only care about their bottom line: money.

    Blizzard literally automated their report systems to only punish frequently reported players without any prior investigation, all while firing customer support and esports division staff so they could line their shareholders' pockets. They're very much complicit in their brand's decline.

    No other publisher would tolerate the sheer amount of toxicity I've witnessed in this game. It's so bad that toxicity is the prime reason I came very close to quitting recently.. Like... there is nothing cool about having players abandon a key and call you a "boosted re**rd", among other nasty things - all because you didn't bloodlust in time during the first boss of a +11 SD for example.

    That's the kind of behaviour that should be an instant /gkick and exclusion from M+ groups.

    Classic-era WoW was good before the days of cross realm matchmaking because you had a reputation on your server. Being a douche would immediately get you excluded from entire guilds on the server.

    One idea I propose is a community-run blacklist. This blacklist would:
    • Be distributed via a addon available to download on a third-party website.
    • Consist of a periodically updated database of toxic players, available for public viewing.
    • Document players who behave in toxic ways in dungeon and raid groups. Toxicity would include abusive chat, hate speech, key abandonment, etc.
    • Require corroborating evidence of toxic behaviour, such as screenshots, video clips, Twitch clips, logs, etc of poor player behaviour to back up each case.
    • Keep blacklisted players on the list for a predetermined length of time until their records are expunged - depending on the severity of their actions. If their actions are repugnant enough I'd argue they should stay on indefinitely.
    • Be curated by a trusted team of players, preferably people from a raid or M+ learning community.

    Wowrep.io is the closest I've seen to such a behaviour ranking addon, but it has a small user base and is open to abuse.
    Last edited by Clbull; 2021-05-02 at 12:33 PM. Reason: Added more detail.

  2. #822
    Quote Originally Posted by Ealyssa View Post
    You PUG keys ? Learn the fucking dungeons ! Really as simple as that.
    Key failure at this level is 90% because of lazy players who don't give a fuck about playing properly.
    "Knowing a dungeon" is a very subjective term. A lot of dpses don't interrupt, stun, dispell, position, use defensives and then comment how the tank is an idiot or the healer is shit. Frankly, most ppl who leave are ppl who actually have no understanding of what happened, have no desire to think how to better themselves or to adapt and think "what could I have done to prevent the wipe". No, they will most likely leave on the premise of "You guys are all shit and are wasting my amazing person's time".
    A good player is one that can adapt and overcome an unpredicted situation, never one who just learns something by heart and if something goes wrong throws a tantrum and leaves because the others "didn't know the dungeon". Like throwing a rez, throwing a stun, using sacrifice as a retri if you see a tank going down and so on. If you just stand there angry when you could've done something, you are part of the wipe. A player should always look to better themselves, not waste time stroking their ego, fucking up 20 keys in a row and thinking themselves amazing because at one point 4 players carried their ass and it went without a hitch - and created the illusion that if everyone knows, all things go smoothly. Things don't always go smoothly unless you overgear to an extent that makes mistakes not matter. Ppl are ppl, even the best players make mistakes. Always be mindful, always try to fix other ppl's mistakes if you can, a party is a team even in a pug and any fail is the team's fail.
    Last edited by Loveliest; 2021-05-02 at 12:59 PM.

  3. #823
    how about the player who leaves the dungeon gets a special unremovable title saying something along the lines of "I Just left a key dont inv me"

  4. #824
    Quote Originally Posted by Clbull View Post
    This is going to be a very unpopular opinion but I think the community needs to take matters into their own hands and come up with a solution to curb the sheer amount of toxic behaviour and key abandonment in Mythic+. Blizzard as we currently know them aren't gonna do crap because they only care about their bottom line: money.

    Blizzard literally automated their report systems to only punish frequently reported players without any prior investigation, all while firing customer support and esports division staff so they could line their shareholders' pockets. They're very much complicit in their brand's decline.

    No other publisher would tolerate the sheer amount of toxicity I've witnessed in this game. It's so bad that toxicity is the prime reason I came very close to quitting recently.. Like... there is nothing cool about having players abandon a key and call you a "boosted re**rd", among other nasty things - all because you didn't bloodlust in time during the first boss of a +11 SD for example.

    That's the kind of behaviour that should be an instant /gkick and exclusion from M+ groups.

    Classic-era WoW was good before the days of cross realm matchmaking because you had a reputation on your server. Being a douche would immediately get you excluded from entire guilds on the server.

    One idea I propose is a community-run blacklist. This blacklist would:
    • Be distributed via a addon available to download on a third-party website.
    • Consist of a periodically updated database of toxic players, available for public viewing.
    • Document players who behave in toxic ways in dungeon and raid groups. Toxicity would include abusive chat, hate speech, key abandonment, etc.
    • Require corroborating evidence of toxic behaviour, such as screenshots, video clips, Twitch clips, logs, etc of poor player behaviour to back up each case.
    • Keep blacklisted players on the list for a predetermined length of time until their records are expunged - depending on the severity of their actions. If their actions are repugnant enough I'd argue they should stay on indefinitely.
    • Be curated by a trusted team of players, preferably people from a raid or M+ learning community.

    Wowrep.io is the closest I've seen to such a behaviour ranking addon, but it has a small user base and is open to abuse.
    Any kind of such system is open to abuse. I've seen a reddit post about wowrep io and I'm not sure I like the idea, even though I'm the first to shun toxicity in game and would like to get rid of it. From the description that was provided it had a lot of potential problems.

    The main issue is unless it is done by the company running the game, you can't expect objectivity and fair play. Then there's also many more problems like...when I see someone toxic I just try to forget it ASAP, not make screenshots of it and upload it somewhere. Most people just don't care enough to put in so much effort to add someone to some blacklist.

    Quote Originally Posted by bigundies View Post
    how about the player who leaves the dungeon gets a special unremovable title saying something along the lines of "I Just left a key dont inv me"
    No, because there's plethora of legitimate reasons to leave the dungeon that shouldn't leave you with such a stigma. Also, as has been said countless times, this would make toxic people just afk in dungeons instead of leaving.
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    I want Activision-Blizzard to burn, but for crimes against gaming, not because they got me too'd.

  5. #825
    Fact is, until the community either has a quit tracker, OR blizzard actually punishes people who quit too much... this will continue, get worse, and far more toxic.

    Other games solve this by punishing a quitter, and it's a timeless method that works. Punish them for quitting, don't let them que again, ban them forever from q'ing up at a certain % of quits has been reached, etc.... make that player character entirely unplayable, and force them to reroll or "redeem" themselves somehow.

    The quitters will respond with the predictable "But it's my time you're wasting i'll quit if i want!" like a true sociopath would, but the fact is this behavior will NOT STOP until it is either tracked and punished by the community, or tracked and punished more heavy handed by blizzard themselves.

    Games with harsh punishments for toxic players tend to be BETTER games and communities overall anyway. As it stands now, wow M+ community is more akin to LoL community than EQ

  6. #826
    Quote Originally Posted by justandulas View Post
    Fact is, until the community either has a quit tracker, OR blizzard actually punishes people who quit too much... this will continue, get worse, and far more toxic.

    Other games solve this by punishing a quitter, and it's a timeless method that works. Punish them for quitting, don't let them que again, ban them forever from q'ing up at a certain % of quits has been reached, etc.... make that player character entirely unplayable, and force them to reroll or "redeem" themselves somehow.

    The quitters will respond with the predictable "But it's my time you're wasting i'll quit if i want!" like a true sociopath would, but the fact is this behavior will NOT STOP until it is either tracked and punished by the community, or tracked and punished more heavy handed by blizzard themselves.

    Games with harsh punishments for toxic players tend to be BETTER games and communities overall anyway. As it stands now, wow M+ community is more akin to LoL community than EQ
    Can you actually name a game that has those kinds of penalties and has gameplay even remotely similar to M+. I haven't heard of harsher penalties for quitting a match in a multiplayer game of some sort than like half an hour queue ban, but then again I'm not playing a lot of games in general.

    Also, you just downright cannot add harsh penalties for leaving in a game mode in which leaving the game is sometimes acceptable and make sense.
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    Everything wrong with gamers in one sentence:
    Quote Originally Posted by Cavox View Post
    I want Activision-Blizzard to burn, but for crimes against gaming, not because they got me too'd.

  7. #827
    Quote Originally Posted by bigundies View Post
    how about the player who leaves the dungeon gets a special unremovable title saying something along the lines of "I Just left a key dont inv me"
    lol, so when we push keys and and it's not recoverable, no one can leave?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Overall, this "toxicity" for me is so foreign. It's not unheard of, for sure, but "most toxic" "extremely toxic", I haven't encountered anyone like that in the last 30 or so keys while actively pugging 2-3 people.
    Where do you find these toxic leavers? Because I can recall like 4-5 in my 120 15+, absolutely nothing on low keys (2-12) and probably no toxicity at all in 18+ which is probably half of my 15 and above runs

  8. #828
    Quote Originally Posted by Clbull View Post

    No other publisher would tolerate the sheer amount of toxicity I've witnessed in this game. It's so bad that toxicity is the prime reason I came very close to quitting recently.. Like... there is nothing cool about having players abandon a key and call you a "boosted re**rd", among other nasty things - all because you didn't bloodlust in time during the first boss of a +11 SD for example.
    .
    you see not lusting a boss after pride is equal toxic and shows that you have zero exp in this key and waste 4 fellow players time, its easy to blame others insted of asking youself what you could have done better.
    Thats also the diffrence between dogshit players and good players, the good player will focus to improve himself and the bad one will post on mmochamp about how toxic everyone is and how he did nothing wrong.
    I.O BFA Season 3


  9. #829
    Pit Lord Sugarcube's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    lol, so when we push keys and and it's not recoverable, no one can leave?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Overall, this "toxicity" for me is so foreign. It's not unheard of, for sure, but "most toxic" "extremely toxic", I haven't encountered anyone like that in the last 30 or so keys while actively pugging 2-3 people.
    Where do you find these toxic leavers? Because I can recall like 4-5 in my 120 15+, absolutely nothing on low keys (2-12) and probably no toxicity at all in 18+ which is probably half of my 15 and above runs
    people think it's toxic to not want to play with people who aren't even trying to play the dungeon lol...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Feral Druid ist Op View Post
    you see not lusting a boss after pride is equal toxic
    if you lust stitchflesh instead of just killing him with spears you are doing it wrong...

  10. #830
    Quote Originally Posted by Clbull View Post
    This is going to be a very unpopular opinion but I think the community needs to take matters into their own hands and come up with a solution to curb the sheer amount of toxic behaviour and key abandonment in Mythic+. Blizzard as we currently know them aren't gonna do crap because they only care about their bottom line: money.

    Blizzard literally automated their report systems to only punish frequently reported players without any prior investigation, all while firing customer support and esports division staff so they could line their shareholders' pockets. They're very much complicit in their brand's decline.

    No other publisher would tolerate the sheer amount of toxicity I've witnessed in this game. It's so bad that toxicity is the prime reason I came very close to quitting recently.. Like... there is nothing cool about having players abandon a key and call you a "boosted re**rd", among other nasty things - all because you didn't bloodlust in time during the first boss of a +11 SD for example.

    That's the kind of behaviour that should be an instant /gkick and exclusion from M+ groups.

    Classic-era WoW was good before the days of cross realm matchmaking because you had a reputation on your server. Being a douche would immediately get you excluded from entire guilds on the server.

    One idea I propose is a community-run blacklist. This blacklist would:
    • Be distributed via a addon available to download on a third-party website.
    • Consist of a periodically updated database of toxic players, available for public viewing.
    • Document players who behave in toxic ways in dungeon and raid groups. Toxicity would include abusive chat, hate speech, key abandonment, etc.
    • Require corroborating evidence of toxic behaviour, such as screenshots, video clips, Twitch clips, logs, etc of poor player behaviour to back up each case.
    • Keep blacklisted players on the list for a predetermined length of time until their records are expunged - depending on the severity of their actions. If their actions are repugnant enough I'd argue they should stay on indefinitely.
    • Be curated by a trusted team of players, preferably people from a raid or M+ learning community.

    Wowrep.io is the closest I've seen to such a behaviour ranking addon, but it has a small user base and is open to abuse.
    You know I was going to write a long text, but it doesn't matter. The core problem is that people can be toxic w/o any consequence. They ruin your key and literally 45 seconds later, find another group, maybe ruin that one too. This is something you could not do in, say, WotLK. If you kept pissing people off in your server, you'd eventually be locked out of meaningful content because you wouldn't get an invite.

    There are solutions to this problem, but Blizzard will not implement them. The solutions using game systems can only be partial. In M+, you can address the toxicity if you want to because of how that system is designed (key depletion, rating, etc.). So you can actually hurt players if they are toxic. You can't do the same in raids, for example. Today, I got kicked for asking "did someone heal the boss or is dps too low" on sire. I was top dps, and the question was genuine because party dps looked okay and we could not beat the timer on phase 1 which surprised me. My curiosity lead to kick. Imagine the intolerance.

    So, even if you address the problem on M+, you can not address the problem on PvP, Raid and many other in aspects of the game. The real solution is removing cross-realm, but that's not going to happen. My original statement: toxicity in WoW can not be fixed.
    Last edited by Kuntantee; 2021-05-02 at 08:55 PM.

  11. #831
    Pit Lord Sugarcube's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuntantee View Post

    There are solutions to this problem, but Blizzard will not implement them. The simplest solution would losing rating when you leave a m+ w/o finishing it. If party votes as "forfeit", then no rating lost because it is a group decision.
    how would this be a solution? people would just afk...

  12. #832
    Quote Originally Posted by Sugarcube View Post
    people think it's toxic to not want to play with people who aren't even trying to play the dungeon lol...

    - - - Updated - - -



    if you lust stitchflesh instead of just killing him with spears you are doing it wrong...
    i belive we talked about SD and useing spears on the 2rd easiest boss is casual as expected form a low io
    I.O BFA Season 3


  13. #833
    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    lol, so when we push keys and and it's not recoverable, no one can leave?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Overall, this "toxicity" for me is so foreign. It's not unheard of, for sure, but "most toxic" "extremely toxic", I haven't encountered anyone like that in the last 30 or so keys while actively pugging 2-3 people.
    Where do you find these toxic leavers? Because I can recall like 4-5 in my 120 15+, absolutely nothing on low keys (2-12) and probably no toxicity at all in 18+ which is probably half of my 15 and above runs
    I see them in most of my runs. People being toxic doesn't necessarily mean depleted key, but you see it. Just today, the healer left a 12 SD run which was going rather smooth. The reason is two other players had a little argument after a mistake which did not even result with a wipe. Your definition of toxic might be the problem here.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Sugarcube View Post
    how would this be a solution? people would just afk...
    I actually removed that part precisely to avoid this discussion. There are solutions to this as well. You get kicked, then the rest of the group calls forfeit. If you get kicked constantly by becoming AFK, then you lose more. This is implemented to CS:GO and works like a charm.

  14. #834
    Pit Lord Sugarcube's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuntantee View Post

    I actually removed that part precisely to avoid this discussion. There are solutions to this as well. You get kicked, then the rest of the group calls forfeit. If you get kicked constantly by becoming AFK, then you lose more. This is implemented to CS:GO and works like a charm.
    so if you're playing with friends they can't go afk during the run because they'd get kicked?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Feral Druid ist Op View Post
    useing spears on the 2rd easiest boss is casual as expected form a low io
    i probably have higher score than you do lol... spear is the way on stitchflesh...
    Last edited by Sugarcube; 2021-05-02 at 10:07 PM.

  15. #835
    Quote Originally Posted by Sugarcube View Post
    so if you're playing with friends they can't go afk during the run because they'd get kicked?
    Kick isn't automated. It's simply a vote. However, as I said, that part isn't interesting to the point I am trying to make so I removed it.

  16. #836
    Pit Lord Sugarcube's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuntantee View Post
    Kick isn't automated. It's simply a vote. However, as I said, that part isn't interesting to the point I am trying to make so I removed it.
    so you can go with 4 people and grief someone that you invite as 5th... wow what a great solution...

  17. #837
    Quote Originally Posted by Sugarcube View Post
    so you can go with 4 people and grief someone that you invite as 5th... wow what a great solution...
    You read my original post, but you have failed to understand it. Not too surprised considering you keep trying to score internet points even though I said I am not interested in having this discussion.

    The proposed solution will result in a penalty only if you keep getting kicked. This is implemented in CS:GO and this method is exposed to a player based that's probably five times bigger than wow and has been there for quite some time now. You get kicked by other players, but that does not immediately result in a penalty. If you keep getting kicked, the problem ain't others. It's you. It works like a charm.

    I know why you are triggered and the answer lies in the following reply.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sugarcube View Post
    people think it's toxic to not want to play with people who aren't even trying to play the dungeon lol...
    You see the system I suggested is there to address toxic players such as yourself.

  18. #838
    Pit Lord Sugarcube's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuntantee View Post

    You see the system I suggested is there to address toxic players such as yourself.
    there is nothing toxic about leaving groups that are bad lol... you just want to force people to carry you but it will backfire...

  19. #839
    Quote Originally Posted by Sugarcube View Post
    there is nothing toxic about leaving groups that are bad lol... you just want to force people to carry you but it will backfire...
    At least give us your battlenet tag so we can put you on the proposed blacklist.

  20. #840
    Pit Lord Sugarcube's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuntantee View Post
    At least give us your battlenet tag so we can put you on the proposed blacklist.
    you have no need to know my tag... i don't know you...

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