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  1. #821
    Brewmaster czarek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveZaer View Post
    Yeah but you aren't even giving them a chance, explaining the mechanic, or anything. I feel like you should at least be open to trying a second time. Like I've stated, if you're on the last boss, you've already sank at least 30 minutes into the dungeon. Giving it a few more chances is actually a better use of your time Especially if they generally performed well enough in the dungeon to get that far.

    30 minutes is excessive, but you could at least say, "I'm willing to give this 2 to 3 more attempts."
    I think high keys dungeons are not a place to learn mechanics. If anyone want to progress highkeys they MUST to learn all mechanics before. M+ is not a place to learn ur class boss or mobs mechanics. Its just all about to master ur movemnt micro planing cooperation and adaptaion. All you got to know BEFORE is read and watch boss fights and know a bit more about movement pulls reactions buff and debuffs killin orders and counters >< Dont be a lazy dick.

  2. #822
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    The question I have is how do you punish the fuckheads & trolls while at the same time making sure that the people who leave due to an emergency or because they have to go do something else (raid, work etc) are not punished? And how do you classify the middle people who leave after multiple wipes on the same boss?

  3. #823
    Quote Originally Posted by MrLachyG View Post
    The question I have is how do you punish the fuckheads & trolls while at the same time making sure that the people who leave due to an emergency or because they have to go do something else (raid, work etc) are not punished? And how do you classify the middle people who leave after multiple wipes on the same boss?
    One is chronic, one isn't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by czarek View Post
    I think high keys dungeons are not a place to learn mechanics. If anyone want to progress highkeys they MUST to learn all mechanics before. M+ is not a place to learn ur class boss or mobs mechanics. Its just all about to master ur movemnt micro planing cooperation and adaptaion. All you got to know BEFORE is read and watch boss fights and know a bit more about movement pulls reactions buff and debuffs killin orders and counters >< Dont be a lazy dick.
    Yeah, I understand that. At the same time, how do you know if it was an error or not? Sometimes shit just happens. Bailing after 1 attempt just seems too reactive, imo.

  4. #824
    Quote Originally Posted by SteveZaer View Post
    Yeah, I understand that. At the same time, how do you know if it was an error or not? Sometimes shit just happens. Bailing after 1 attempt just seems too reactive, imo.
    i can agree on this i cant count how many times someone has bailed on my key in which i put on the title "for weekly vault" that have left after we have wiped on a boss this week, or the tank doing stupid pull in keys i have joined and left because the didn't notice i was bolstering necrotic week

  5. #825
    Quote Originally Posted by thunderdragon2 View Post
    i can agree on this i cant count how many times someone has bailed on my key in which i put on the title "for weekly vault" that have left after we have wiped on a boss this week, or the tank doing stupid pull in keys i have joined and left because the didn't notice i was bolstering necrotic week
    I dont do it, but I know some ppl see groups titled "weekly vault" and try to join them because usually they have lower requirements. With no intention of sticking around if its not a smooth carry

  6. #826
    Epic! Alroxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveZaer View Post
    Personally, I feel like it's better to have some kind of consequence than no consequence because no consequence means, oh, this isn't going how I planned? Time to DC/leave which isn't much of a difference in the result.
    The problem is that punishment systems can be lead to more toxic behavior than the current system. Currently, the worst thing that can happen is someone leaves/DC and it's a degraded by 1 key level.

    Compare that behavior to where the first person that leaves/DC = X time banned from M+ (deserter debuff) so instead of a person leaving, they stick around only to afk while not afking (at best) or purposely sabotage the group (i.e. Pull extra packs, don't heal the tank, etc) so that it frustrates somebody else to leave first so they get the debuff instead of the original person who wants to leave.

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveZaer View Post
    it's better to leave than damage your score with a bad run.
    You can't lower your score: R.io takes the highest run you've done (in time or not) with it's scoring metric which can take the higher score of a non-timed key IF that key was significantly higher than the highest completed key. Example: a +12 done in time can be replaced by a +15 not done in time but only missed the mark by a few seconds.

    There's no way a person with a 1300 r.io score get dinged back down to a 800 r.io score by failing runs. It's not like PvP rating which can go down if you continually "lose".
    Last edited by Alroxas; 2021-04-26 at 03:32 PM.
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  7. #827
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    I dont do it, but I know some ppl see groups titled "weekly vault" and try to join them because usually they have lower requirements. With no intention of sticking around if its not a smooth carry
    i know its a pain in the ass i usually have the same requirements regardless off weekly vault i just put that so if the key goes south it gets finished 80% of the time it does

  8. #828
    Warchief Freedom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ealyssa View Post
    A +14 with random is not the place for that, period. Don't expect people you don't know to hold your hand and carry you for free.

    You PUG keys ? Learn the fucking dungeons ! Really as simple as that.
    Key failure at this level is 90% because of lazy players who don't give a fuck about playing properly.
    Can you imagine what people would say IRL if you tried this shit there?

    A: "Hey guys I've never really cooked before but I want to learn. Here is my cooking experience."
    B: "Well, even if all you've done before is make a PBJ, everyone has to start somewhere. Sure thing, you can go to school and learn like the rest of us did, maybe even get a scholarship to do so if you're good."
    A: "No I heard this restaurant was good so I want to learn here. And get paid the same rate you do while I'm learning."
    B: "How to say this... You DO know that this is a 3 Star Michelin restaurant, right?"
    A: "AMG WAHHH I'm going to go on Twitter and get you all canceled for being meanies! Elitists!"
    B: "Look, if you have talent and put in the time, maybe you can work here someday. But not yet."
    A: "ELITIST! I don't have time to learn cooking, I'm too busy and it's too much effort, but you are just mean!"
    B: "... Okay? Why did you even come in here if you don't have the time to learn how to cook, or think it's too much effort?"
    A: "WELL, you're just a no-lifer who cooks too much! I'm better than you meanies!"
    C: "Sir, I think it's time you leave. The cooks have cooking to do."
    A: "AH, now we see the violence inherent in the system! Help, help, I'm being repressed!" *Monty Python noises*
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    Ok, I give up. This is pointless.
    Many Multitudes Online Constantly Harping About Minor Problems
    FIRE GIVES ME BIGGER BLOOD SHIELDS

  9. #829
    Epic! Alroxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveZaer View Post
    Yeah but you aren't even giving them a chance, explaining the mechanic, or anything.
    Depends on the goals of each player. For instance, if the group is labeled as "push 17+" then the expectation is that everybody should know their roles, how to handle the affixes, and the generally accepted route as determined by the community.

    If the group leader (or tank) has a different route in mind, they should share it with the group first, prior to starting the run. If there's a different strategy that is going to be used, then it should be discussed prior to starting the run so it's not a surprise.

    If the group isn't handling mechanics correctly in a "push" group then it's not a "push" then. It's a learning group and should have been labeled as such (additionally the key should be dropped lower).

    A mismatch in goals and expectations will cause more groups to disband mid-run than anything else.


    If players want smoother PuG experiences, then be specific when you're advertising groups. Say that you want to complete the dungeon, but hope to time if possible. Highlight lack of experience or any other shortcomings (i.e. bob over there is a bit undergeared, or jack just got back into wow) in group prior to starting the key. Allow applicants to bail before starting the key if they don't agree to the goals that your group has.

    And it goes the other way too: If you join a group and see someone at 20k HP going into a 15+ key, inspect them! Don't take it on faith that the group you've joined is going to succeed. Ask questions if you see a potential issue and if you don't like the answer, bail out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrLachyG View Post
    The question I have is how do you punish the fuckheads & trolls while at the same time making sure that the people who leave due to an emergency or because they have to go do something else (raid, work etc) are not punished? And how do you classify the middle people who leave after multiple wipes on the same boss?
    You can't. That's one of the reasons why there isn't a punishment system in place for M+. It's next to impossible to figure out an automated system that can accurately only punish the bad actors.

    "But what about a GM review system"
    Have you seen the wait time queues for GMs when you submit a ticket? Do want to wait up to 48 hours for a GM to get to your ticket on a wrongful punishment issued to you?


    "Ok so no GMs but what about a peer review system"
    First how many players would you need to review other players? Also what about the details of each case reviewed? Also what a player deems as acceptable leaving (and no punishment) might not be the same judgement another player would have in the exact same scenario. So now you'll have additional tickets where inconsistent judgements from players requires additional review.
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  10. #830
    Pandaren Monk Sugarcube's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    First how many players would you need to review other players? Also what about the details of each case reviewed? Also what a player deems as acceptable leaving (and no punishment) might not be the same judgement another player would have in the exact same scenario. So now you'll have additional tickets where inconsistent judgements from players requires additional review.
    only scenario i would think is not acceptable to leave in is leaving just as the key starts before the group has even started playing lol... if someone leaves in another scenario i just /shrug, gg go next...

  11. #831
    Brewmaster czarek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveZaer View Post
    One is chronic, one isn't.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Yeah, I understand that. At the same time, how do you know if it was an error or not? Sometimes shit just happens. Bailing after 1 attempt just seems too reactive, imo.
    Ofc. 1 wipe doens not mean its fail and i got to leave. I always stay but mostly tank is leaveing.

  12. #832
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    Depends on the goals of each player. For instance, if the group is labeled as "push 17+" then the expectation is that everybody should know their roles, how to handle the affixes, and the generally accepted route as determined by the community.

    If the group leader (or tank) has a different route in mind, they should share it with the group first, prior to starting the run. If there's a different strategy that is going to be used, then it should be discussed prior to starting the run so it's not a surprise.

    If the group isn't handling mechanics correctly in a "push" group then it's not a "push" then. It's a learning group and should have been labeled as such (additionally the key should be dropped lower).

    A mismatch in goals and expectations will cause more groups to disband mid-run than anything else.


    If players want smoother PuG experiences, then be specific when you're advertising groups. Say that you want to complete the dungeon, but hope to time if possible. Highlight lack of experience or any other shortcomings (i.e. bob over there is a bit undergeared, or jack just got back into wow) in group prior to starting the key. Allow applicants to bail before starting the key if they don't agree to the goals that your group has.

    And it goes the other way too: If you join a group and see someone at 20k HP going into a 15+ key, inspect them! Don't take it on faith that the group you've joined is going to succeed. Ask questions if you see a potential issue and if you don't like the answer, bail out.

    - - - Updated - - -



    You can't. That's one of the reasons why there isn't a punishment system in place for M+. It's next to impossible to figure out an automated system that can accurately only punish the bad actors.



    Have you seen the wait time queues for GMs when you submit a ticket? Do want to wait up to 48 hours for a GM to get to your ticket on a wrongful punishment issued to you?




    First how many players would you need to review other players? Also what about the details of each case reviewed? Also what a player deems as acceptable leaving (and no punishment) might not be the same judgement another player would have in the exact same scenario. So now you'll have additional tickets where inconsistent judgements from players requires additional review.
    Also what’s to stop someone lying? “Oh I didn’t leave because I’m a filthy troll I left because my SO/roommate was having a medical emergency”

  13. #833
    Quote Originally Posted by Velshin View Post
    Beware this is a ranting topic:
    There has to be a solution for players like that who are purposely ruining other players keys...
    There is usually more to the story in most cases like this. I'm not trying to insinuate that you guys did anything but without hearing both sides and having been in situations like this. In cases I've seen, the "group of friends" contributed to the wipes just as much but wanted to blame the solo guy (why not? It's easy to blame the expendable person) for everything then get upset when he leaves.

    And lastly, it doesn't quite sound like he purposely ruined the key. That would imply that his actions were done to deliberately do that and someone doing that won't say "f*** it" before leaving, they'll just leave or say something like "lol!". Saying "f*** it" is what someone says when they're frustrated.

  14. #834
    Best way to prevent M+ leavers imo. Leave a m+ and a piece of your armor gets broken and can't repair it till next reset.

  15. #835
    Bloodsail Admiral Malania's Avatar
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    Crucifixion is the clear answer to all problems in WoW. And life come to think of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlmightyGerkin View Post
    Best way to prevent M+ leavers imo. Leave a m+ and a piece of your armor gets broken and can't repair it till next reset.
    That just means you don't vendor alternative drops you wouldn't normally keep.

  16. #836
    Please wait Temp name's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlmightyGerkin View Post
    Best way to prevent M+ leavers imo. Leave a m+ and a piece of your armor gets broken and can't repair it till next reset.
    And then people would just afk instead of leave.

    Or they keep 2-3 pieces of extra armor in their bags/banks and just swap it.

  17. #837
    I am Murloc! Velshin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    There is usually more to the story in most cases like this. I'm not trying to insinuate that you guys did anything but without hearing both sides and having been in situations like this. In cases I've seen, the "group of friends" contributed to the wipes just as much but wanted to blame the solo guy (why not? It's easy to blame the expendable person) for everything then get upset when he leaves.

    And lastly, it doesn't quite sound like he purposely ruined the key. That would imply that his actions were done to deliberately do that and someone doing that won't say "f*** it" before leaving, they'll just leave or say something like "lol!". Saying "f*** it" is what someone says when they're frustrated.
    The thing is before he left he was dying by standing in shit and not avoiding cone. After 4 deaths in the row I asked him politely if he has any issues with lagging or something is wrong? he didn't reply or said anything and carried on and kept dying and dying then he said f""' it" and left. This is the entire story there is no cover up and no "more into the story than that" that is exactly what happened. There is also a possibility that he doesn't understand English very well maybe.

  18. #838
    Quote Originally Posted by Velshin View Post
    The thing is before he left he was dying by standing in shit and not avoiding cone. After 4 deaths in the row I asked him politely if he has any issues with lagging or something is wrong? he didn't reply or said anything and carried on and kept dying and dying then he said f""' it" and left. This is the entire story there is no cover up and no "more into the story than that" that is exactly what happened. There is also a possibility that he doesn't understand English very well maybe.
    And why would you want to try and struggle thru the rest of the dungeon with this player? How do you think the run would go? Would it be enjoyable having this player chained to you? What if he wanted to stay and just continued to frustrate you, would you be alright with taking a leaver penalty when he frustrated u enough chain wiping on the boss

  19. #839
    Quote Originally Posted by thunderdragon2 View Post
    i can agree on this i cant count how many times someone has bailed on my key in which i put on the title "for weekly vault" that have left after we have wiped on a boss this week, or the tank doing stupid pull in keys i have joined and left because the didn't notice i was bolstering necrotic week
    just because its weekly it doesnt mean that peopel are willing to put in 1,5 hour or like 100 deaths into run

    if i see tank pulling like moron / group being unable to do clean first pull or having like 10 deaths before first boss i will leave since my time is to precious to waste it

    just last night i was seriously considering multiple times bailing on mists 15 because group filled with 1800-1900 people behaved like people with 600 io failing so badly on so many basic stuff that it was crazy - or 1800 monk constantly - i mean constantly dying in PF15.

    honestly i had thought that they all bought those accounts because there shouldnt be reason either for 1800 people to do +15 or fail so badly .

    want example ? if i see group in DoS/HoS who is unable to clean up first pull with BL and all cds up only wipes there there is 0 chances i will stick with such group because there are sooo many so much harder pulls in there that key clear will be nightmare.

    if i was a streamer who plays wow 8 hours a day as my job then i would likely just bite it and always stay . but in pug ? no chance in hell. and i dont care how many angry whispers i will get after from group leaders who just wanted to be carried by others
    Last edited by kamuimac; 2021-05-02 at 09:00 AM.

  20. #840
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    This is going to be a very unpopular opinion but I think the community needs to take matters into their own hands and come up with a solution to curb the sheer amount of toxic behaviour and key abandonment in Mythic+. Blizzard as we currently know them aren't gonna do crap because they only care about their bottom line: money.

    Blizzard literally automated their report systems to only punish frequently reported players without any prior investigation, all while firing customer support and esports division staff so they could line their shareholders' pockets. They're very much complicit in their brand's decline.

    No other publisher would tolerate the sheer amount of toxicity I've witnessed in this game. It's so bad that toxicity is the prime reason I came very close to quitting recently.. Like... there is nothing cool about having players abandon a key and call you a "boosted re**rd", among other nasty things - all because you didn't bloodlust in time during the first boss of a +11 SD for example.

    That's the kind of behaviour that should be an instant /gkick and exclusion from M+ groups.

    Classic-era WoW was good before the days of cross realm matchmaking because you had a reputation on your server. Being a douche would immediately get you excluded from entire guilds on the server.

    One idea I propose is a community-run blacklist. This blacklist would:
    • Be distributed via a addon available to download on a third-party website.
    • Consist of a periodically updated database of toxic players, available for public viewing.
    • Document players who behave in toxic ways in dungeon and raid groups. Toxicity would include abusive chat, hate speech, key abandonment, etc.
    • Require corroborating evidence of toxic behaviour, such as screenshots, video clips, Twitch clips, logs, etc of poor player behaviour to back up each case.
    • Keep blacklisted players on the list for a predetermined length of time until their records are expunged - depending on the severity of their actions. If their actions are repugnant enough I'd argue they should stay on indefinitely.
    • Be curated by a trusted team of players, preferably people from a raid or M+ learning community.

    Wowrep.io is the closest I've seen to such a behaviour ranking addon, but it has a small user base and is open to abuse.
    Last edited by Clbull; 2021-05-02 at 12:33 PM. Reason: Added more detail.

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