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  1. #861
    Warchief Sugarcube's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    What about people who advertise "quick weekly" then invite their friend who does tank dps?
    lol holy shit... i joined a weekly key on my druid the other day, big mistake... there was a boomkin in ilvl 220 that was doing less dps than the tank... the tank was a blood dk... and was doing 2.5k dps... the dk left before first boss...
    Last edited by Sugarcube; 2021-05-03 at 02:45 AM.

  2. #862
    There are people who freak out over everything but i'm sorry to many people come to these forums and will completely gloss over l the actions of the party that made the person leave.

  3. #863
    Quote Originally Posted by callipygoustp View Post
    Seriously: what the fuck are people doing where "leavers" are enough of an issue that people are coming with a myriad of ridiculous "solutions". I certainly run into a leaver or toxic player here and there but not nearly enough that I want some wack-a-do system put into place to combat it.

    Learn to use raider.io more effectively. That's the solution for people who are frequently running into "leavers".
    So..we are doing +18´s and I ask for a group with 1600+ R.io score, DH appears, we pull some adds, fire mage does 4.3k in first pull, DH leaves. Yeah that is my bad for not "using raider.io effectively". The fact that this not happened to you, or not nearly as often as some of us (kudos) does not mean it does not happen frequently. Toxic players should be dealt with, not tolerate them. And its certainly much worse than before. And not just wow.

  4. #864
    Quote Originally Posted by Tziva View Post
    That doesn't really stop it from happening.

    It's also not something that is handled by an automated system. There's no reason leavers couldn't be handled the same way griefers are now.
    They don't consider it griefing at the moment and neither do I as people don't leave simply to harm others which is what griefing is. Rage quitting, however, is a form of griefing. Now if they come out tonight and say that they do feel it is, then so be it I'll report people. Then again I constantly report people for advertisement in group finder and nothing happens.

  5. #865
    Elemental Lord callipygoustp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimlokh View Post
    So..we are doing +18´s and I ask for a group with 1600+ R.io score, DH appears, we pull some adds, fire mage does 4.3k in first pull, DH leaves. Yeah that is my bad for not "using raider.io effectively". The fact that this not happened to you, or not nearly as often as some of us (kudos) does not mean it does not happen frequently. Toxic players should be dealt with, not tolerate them. And its certainly much worse than before. And not just wow.
    One specific scenario does not in any way shape or form change what I said.

    If you are regularly running into leavers, I repeat:
    Learn to use raider.io more effectively. That's the solution for people who are frequently running into "leavers".

  6. #866
    Quote Originally Posted by callipygoustp View Post
    One specific scenario does not in any way shape or form change what I said.

    If you are regularly running into leavers, I repeat:
    In your opinion what would be the cues to spot out a leaver in a rio profile?

  7. #867
    Punishments will only become abused in wichever direction they can. If the leaver gets a penatly ppl will just go afk and not leave holding the other effectively hostage.
    And if a votekick system is implemented ppl will grief by using that for the wrong purpuses, giving deserter debuffs to player who doesnt deserve it.

    The best solution is to simply remove the restriction of not being able to invite a new player. So if someone leaves, the group can just find a new player and keep going.

    And be4 someone says "but what about the 1/10000 players that will abuse it for world 1st ranks" with the new blizzard ingame score it would be quite easy to design it so t you cant up your score if youve swapped out players. So no top 0,1% abuse possible there either.
    None of us really changes over time. We only become more fully what we are.

  8. #868
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimlokh View Post
    So..we are doing +18´s and I ask for a group with 1600+ R.io score, DH appears, we pull some adds, fire mage does 4.3k in first pull, DH leaves. Yeah that is my bad for not "using raider.io effectively". The fact that this not happened to you, or not nearly as often as some of us (kudos) does not mean it does not happen frequently. Toxic players should be dealt with, not tolerate them. And its certainly much worse than before. And not just wow.
    The sad truth is... If more players acted like this DH while being in a group with that mage, guy may never have reached 1600+ score... At some point, I understand why there's ones who just can't play with people unable to press buttons... Especially on a +18, that's not anymore a "weekly no leavers" run there.

    Hopefully, most of the time PUGs are at an acceptable level to get weekly done. Did already more than 10 runs this week, the only bad one I had was a +16 TOP where the healer was unable to keep people up on the 1st pride, then on the pull after (with prideful buff...). Guys who died on that pull left just after. In this case, believe me, time is not wasted, but saved!

  9. #869
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feral Druid ist Op View Post
    you see not lusting a boss after pride is equal toxic and shows that you have zero exp in this key and waste 4 fellow players time, its easy to blame others insted of asking youself what you could have done better.
    Thats also the diffrence between dogshit players and good players, the good player will focus to improve himself and the bad one will post on mmochamp about how toxic everyone is and how he did nothing wrong.
    And you think it's acceptable to throw profanities at people, label them a "boosted re*ard" and abandon key like a dick all over a measly mistake like that? The key was well ahead of time. We had the first boss down by around the 35 minute mark. We were definitely going to time that key with at least a +2.

    The problem was that I didn't see messages in party chat asking me to BL because my attention was focused on another screen. I apologized for the mistake and I wasn't mean about it. But if you leave key over a measly error like that you deserve to be banned from the game.

    Riot Games and the greater League of Legends community wouldn't stand for somebody leaving a ranked match because another player was underperforming. Why should the WoW community stand for that crap?

    People like you who hold shitty elitist holier-than-thou attitudes are the cancer that's killing WoW. You're the reason why FFXIV Endwalker is probably going to eclipse this game once it comes out. Just look at the number of active players, Blizzard's utter desperation at removing prepaid time purchase options and the rising price of WoW tokens to a new high and honestly tell me Blizzard aren't in dire straits.

    Toxicity is a major point of contention in this game, and if Blizzard cba to tackle it, I stand by my proposal that the community take matters into their own hands.
    Last edited by Clbull; 2021-05-03 at 10:46 AM.

  10. #870
    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    Leaving is not toxic. Healer left because of toxic environment probably. If there are people shit talking each other or acting with malicious intent, that's toxic.
    Again, I don't see these toxic guys everyone is talking about, especially not every day.
    Leaving and depleting others key on a whim over a small argument composed of 2 exchanges is extremely toxic. Not to mention the run was going rather smooth.

  11. #871
    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    Leaving is not toxic. Healer left because of toxic environment probably. If there are people shit talking each other or acting with malicious intent, that's toxic.
    Again, I don't see these toxic guys everyone is talking about, especially not every day.
    I don’t see them often but they come up. Earlier this week I was running Plaguefall 15. I’m tanking, and I’ve timed it on 17 so I’m not a total idiot.

    I pulled one pack and a 2k io dh says “wrong” then starts pulling on his own. At one point he runs ahead, pulls a tentacle, dies and wipes the group, then says “oh well I tried” and bails.

    A lot of high io players will leave even if a run is going fine because something doesn’t meet their definition of optimal. We were easily on pace to time the key until he started acting like a dick.

    I can’t for the life of me understand how a person ends up like that.
    The desperate last chance response of a person who is losing an argument on the forums:

    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    You DO realize that even if every user ever on these forums agreed with you, something even you would admit is impossible, that would not be 0.0001% of the player base, right? But sure, enjoy your echo chamber if you want.

  12. #872
    It is like they are actively working towards turning the game into a chat lobby for instanced content, but unlike other similar matchmaking systems WoW doen't have protections in place. I don't think it's anyone's duty here to come up with the best system to regulate player behavior, the game has an army of people who are paid for such things. What we can do is bring the problem forward, which we've done far and wide.

    Whether it's a rating, record, points, votes or any of the many possibilities it's badly needed. With the highly challenging and competitive environment they cultivate it's boggling that there are no means to regulate poor player behavior and experiences. They are brewing toxic pits.

  13. #873
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    I don’t see them often but they come up. Earlier this week I was running Plaguefall 15. I’m tanking, and I’ve timed it on 17 so I’m not a total idiot.

    I pulled one pack and a 2k io dh says “wrong” then starts pulling on his own. At one point he runs ahead, pulls a tentacle, dies and wipes the group, then says “oh well I tried” and bails.

    A lot of high io players will leave even if a run is going fine because something doesn’t meet their definition of optimal. We were easily on pace to time the key until he started acting like a dick.

    I can’t for the life of me understand how a person ends up like that.
    To be fair, I wouldn't generalize the high rio players. It tends to be the players that think they're high rio and good (1.5k-2.5k usually), but are actually mid-high tier at best. If I join a key at a certain level, I'm not expecting them to perform like we're timing a 24 and I would never try to correct the tanks' route once the instance has already begun. So the people above the the "pusher crowd" tend to be a bit more calm, usually because they'll be pushing with a team at that point and the most common reason to do lower keys is for fun and weeklies. And I just don't see the reason to bring a tryhard mindset into those.

  14. #874
    A lot of the time people agree to leave keys if they aint timeable. System is fine.

  15. #875
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuntantee View Post
    You know I was going to write a long text, but it doesn't matter. The core problem is that people can be toxic w/o any consequence. They ruin your key and literally 45 seconds later, find another group, maybe ruin that one too. This is something you could not do in, say, WotLK. If you kept pissing people off in your server, you'd eventually be locked out of meaningful content because you wouldn't get an invite.

    There are solutions to this problem, but Blizzard will not implement them. The solutions using game systems can only be partial. In M+, you can address the toxicity if you want to because of how that system is designed (key depletion, rating, etc.). So you can actually hurt players if they are toxic. You can't do the same in raids, for example. Today, I got kicked for asking "did someone heal the boss or is dps too low" on sire. I was top dps, and the question was genuine because party dps looked okay and we could not beat the timer on phase 1 which surprised me. My curiosity lead to kick. Imagine the intolerance.

    So, even if you address the problem on M+, you can not address the problem on PvP, Raid and many other in aspects of the game. The real solution is removing cross-realm, but that's not going to happen. My original statement: toxicity in WoW can not be fixed.
    On the other hand, flagging toxic players via a downloadable addon would help players know who to avoid grouping with. It would make M+ (and possibly even PvP) a far better experience. It would also serve as a tool to help guilds screen which players to welcome into their ranks.

    The idea isn't foolproof. The two problems I see is that screenshots can easily be faked so you'd possibly need alternative corroborating evidence of bad behaviour, and you'd need a trusted group of people to curate the list, because if everybody could just automatically add people, the system would quickly become a cesspool of abuse.

    Another issue is that Blizzard could turn around and C&D the addon, or disable core functionality that potentially screws over similar addons like Raider.io and Wowrep.io, along with many others. Then again, they didn't give a solitary crap when Nnoggie tried to paywall Mythic Dungeon Tools, or towards Zygor charging for his addon guides.

  16. #876
    Quote Originally Posted by Clbull View Post
    The problem was that I didn't see messages in party chat asking me to BL because my attention was focused on another screen.
    Why was your attention focused on another screen during a timed dungeon run?

  17. #877
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trumpcat View Post
    It is like they are actively working towards turning the game into a chat lobby for instanced content, but unlike other similar matchmaking systems WoW doen't have protections in place. I don't think it's anyone's duty here to come up with the best system to regulate player behavior, the game has an army of people who are paid for such things. What we can do is bring the problem forward, which we've done far and wide.

    Whether it's a rating, record, points, votes or any of the many possibilities it's badly needed. With the highly challenging and competitive environment they cultivate it's boggling that there are no means to regulate poor player behavior and experiences. They are brewing toxic pits.
    I think you just came up with the million dollar game idea that would kill World of Warcraft.

    It wouldn't be a MMORPG. MMOs are far too costly to run and every developer that has tried to dethrone WoW, except maybe for a select few, have not only failed but gone out of business as a result of trying to chase that gold rush.

    Rather, it would be a mere free to play online multiplayer focused dungeon crawler, with similar tab-targeting and action bar based combat, OR telegraphed action combat like Wildstar had. Think a bit like Neverwinter if the game were only centred around instanced dungeons. Money would be made with boosts and cosmetics, to avoid the game going P2W. There would be a basic tutorial that explains clearly to the player basic mechanics like threat, aggro, damage dealing, healing, mana efficiency, interrupts, crowd control, etc.

    Dungeons are isolated levels which you can either tackle solo or in a group of up to 5 players. They scale based on players and each have their own separate leaderboards once hard modes are factored in.

    Classes would be abundant with plenty of talent trees, item, spec and role choices. Roles would be the holy trinity of tanking, DPS and healing. Once you hit max level (probably around 30), the endgame which involves hard mode dungeons and instanced raids of up to 40 concurrent players would open up.

    That is the game that would kill WoW.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    Why was your attention focused on another screen during a timed dungeon run?
    Quite simple, I had my chat window set on a whisper tab and forgot to move it elsewhere. The default UI unfortunately doesn't warn you when you receive messages in a separate tab, unless they're direct whispers, nor does it show nearby players saying those messages in speech boxes.

    I have chat separated into different tabs because if you're anywhere near a capital city, trade chat is filled with boost and gold seller spam - cause as stated before, Blizzard couldn't give a solitary crap about policing their own game.

    Either of these things would have averted the issue.
    Last edited by Clbull; 2021-05-03 at 11:34 AM.

  18. #878
    Quote Originally Posted by Tziva View Post
    I know that, but for the people who are there to actually play the content and not to "maximise rewards per hour" it's not particularly enjoyable to just throw games and especially encounter people every single match demanding you do so and refusing to participate to speed up the process.
    There's something wrong with a game's design when not playing it is the most productive method of winning it.
    The most difficult thing for people to do is objectively look at something they don't like and be able to accept that it is not bad, that other people like it, and if it was changed to the way they'd like it that other people would not like it and want it changed back. The second most is to receive something they didn't want or ask for and be grateful for it, not immediately demand what they wanted instead.

  19. #879
    Quote Originally Posted by Clbull View Post
    I think you just came up with the million dollar game idea that would kill World of Warcraft.

    It wouldn't be a MMORPG. MMOs are far too costly to run and every developer that has tried to dethrone WoW, except maybe for a select few, have not only failed but gone out of business as a result of trying to chase that gold rush.

    Rather, it would be a mere free to play online multiplayer focused dungeon crawler, with similar tab-targeting and action bar based combat, OR telegraphed action combat like Wildstar had. Think a bit like Neverwinter if the game were only centred around instanced dungeons. Money would be made with boosts and cosmetics, to avoid the game going P2W. There would be a basic tutorial that explains clearly to the player basic mechanics like threat, aggro, damage dealing, healing, mana efficiency, interrupts, crowd control, etc.

    Dungeons are isolated levels which you can either tackle solo or in a group of up to 5 players. They scale based on players and each have their own separate leaderboards once hard modes are factored in.

    Classes would be abundant with plenty of talent trees, item, spec and role choices. Roles would be the holy trinity of tanking, DPS and healing. Once you hit max level (probably around 30), the endgame which involves hard mode dungeons and instanced raids of up to 40 concurrent players would open up.

    That is the game that would kill WoW.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Quite simple, I had my chat window set on a whisper tab and forgot to move it elsewhere. The default UI unfortunately doesn't warn you when you receive messages in a separate tab, unless they're direct whispers, nor does it show nearby players saying those messages in speech boxes.

    I have chat separated into different tabs because if you're anywhere near a capital city, trade chat is filled with boost and gold seller spam - cause as stated before, Blizzard couldn't give a solitary crap about policing their own game.

    Either of these things would have averted the issue.
    Gotcha. I personally turn off trade chat cause it hasn't been useful in years lol. I guess its a good reminder to set chat windows to always have party showing when starting m+.

    The dudes a dick tho. There ARE set times to bloodlust that stay pretty consistent in like 90% of the runs, but imo 10-11 is about the range when u start learning that. It really doesn't matter in keys lower than that lol.

  20. #880
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    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    There's something wrong with a game's design when not playing it is the most productive method of winning it.
    There's also something wrong with a game company's management when half of their playerbase makes the typical player blow a gasket.

    WoW is not a pleasant experience for that reason.

    The anonymity and lack of consequences resulting from Blizzard cross-realming the shit out of everything allows players to get away with behaviour that would lead to their exclusion in almost any other social context. In fact, if somebody behaved in a remotely toxic manner IRL to what I've witnessed in this game, they'd probably be beaten up.

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