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  1. #861
    Quote Originally Posted by Tziva View Post
    There isn't an easy fix or it probably would have been implemented already.
    Sure there is... set up an algorithm that can tell the difference between an actual disconnect or someone leaving the dungeon...

    If you leave the dungeon you lose half of your rating. If you get removed from the group nothing happens.

    They know how to put timers on people leaving normal dungeons and BGs... so whats the difference?

    If you're going to drool over raider.io or the new rating system at least make it realistic where people should be penalized for being dickwads.

  2. #862
    Pandaren Monk Sugarcube's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorothyjean View Post

    If you're going to drool over raider.io or the new rating system at least make it realistic where people should be penalized for being dickwads.
    you mean like when people post a key and then they barely outdps the tank or are even under the tank in damage as dps specs? yes... they should be penalized... as should people who are standing so far apart from each other that you can at most hit 2 people with mass dispel...

  3. #863
    Free Food!?!?! Tziva's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorothyjean View Post
    Sure there is... set up an algorithm that can tell the difference between an actual disconnect or someone leaving the dungeon...

    If you leave the dungeon you lose half of your rating. If you get removed from the group nothing happens.

    They know how to put timers on people leaving normal dungeons and BGs... so whats the difference?

    If you're going to drool over raider.io or the new rating system at least make it realistic where people should be penalized for being dickwads.
    This has been addressed a zillion times in this thread, including in the rest of the very post you partially quoted. If the system starts to penalise people for leaving, then they won't. Instead keys will be held hostage by intentional DCs, AFKers or griefers who don't want to lose their points. At absolutely best, this wastes even more time than leavers already do. At worst, innocent people will be forced take the penalty just to get out of those toxic runs.

    I hate leavers as much as the next guy but I'd rather someone silentlyditch a run 20 minutes into the dungeon and allow me to jump back into a new key, then have it take even longer because we're waiting on the offline or afk person in case they come back, or deal with repair bills because someone is trying to wipe us to get someone else to leave first. I definitely don't want to lose half my rating because I was forced to leave a key after a tank had a tantrum and refused to go further. There are plenty of reasons why a nice player might leave a group first and be justified in doing so, and all of these proposed automated leaver "fixes" all are things that will encourage those circumstances to become more common.

    There is no way to automate a leaver penalty without innocent people getting caught in the cross fire. Considering that the repercussions of having a leaver in your group now is only a small amount of time wasted, anything that risks a worse experience for "regular" players is a downgrade to the system, not a positive. Instead of Blizzard spending resources trying to make some automated system that will encourage toxic behaviour instead of avoidant, the best solution is that they instead spend resources to have real people check on reports and manually review and punish chronic leavers. The reality is they are unlikely to do either, but the latter is an infinitely better solution than anything done by an algorithm.

    Normal dungeons and BGs are not analogous systems and not relevant here. They are groups created through automation that backfill when someone leaves. They also are "light" content that people care less about / have less at stake, although even there you'll still occasionally encounter griefers or people who demand to be kicked rather than leaving.

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  4. #864
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuntantee View Post
    I see them in most of my runs. People being toxic doesn't necessarily mean depleted key, but you see it. Just today, the healer left a 12 SD run which was going rather smooth. The reason is two other players had a little argument after a mistake which did not even result with a wipe. Your definition of toxic might be the problem here.
    Leaving is not toxic. Healer left because of toxic environment probably. If there are people shit talking each other or acting with malicious intent, that's toxic.
    Again, I don't see these toxic guys everyone is talking about, especially not every day.

  5. #865
    Elemental Lord callipygoustp's Avatar
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    Seriously: what the fuck are people doing where "leavers" are enough of an issue that people are coming with a myriad of ridiculous "solutions". I certainly run into a leaver or toxic player here and there but not nearly enough that I want some wack-a-do system put into place to combat it.

    Learn to use raider.io more effectively. That's the solution for people who are frequently running into "leavers".
    Last edited by callipygoustp; 2021-05-03 at 01:39 AM.

  6. #866
    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    I don't see what you will gain by forcing players into a run they don't see as doable anymore. Wipe 3 times. Key won't get finsihed. Why bother doing it at all?

    I get if it is only to get a weekly chest. But you can write that when you queue the key and only people who don't care about timing will queue for it.

    Otherwise? You will just create people who will NOT leave for fear of repercussions but instead play just bad enough so blizz cannot reprimand them for throwing but not good enough that anyone will have fun or you will be able to finsih the key.

    Mythic+ keys are not build so you can finish every single one. ESPECIALLY in pugs where you don't even get a training effect with your team as you will never play with these people again.
    There are very rare cases where runs won't get completed at all. And 90% of all leavers left when runs either were still in time or it would be a few minutes over.

    Leavers are cancer. Just because you won't get your 10 points score or whatever doesn't mean that you won't ruin the weekly vault for 4 other players.

    You're not alone in the world.
    You waste my time if you leave.

    Most of those leavers are little spoiled children that don't think about anyone but themselves.

    It would be cool if Blizzard would add npcs to the run and reduce the loot if ppl left. So the run won't be completely ruined for everyone.

  7. #867
    Pandaren Monk Sugarcube's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GnomeEU View Post

    Leavers are cancer.
    lol... i think i see why you have leavers...

  8. #868
    Quote Originally Posted by Dorothyjean View Post

    If you leave the dungeon you lose half of your rating. If you get removed from the group nothing happens.
    I mean you must see a major flaw with this.
    Penalized for being dickwads but then if u get kicked you don't get penalized. xD Oh boy this would generate drama bigger than introduction of LFR.

    You can't police m+ leavers without punishing everyone else and leavers are very rare in successful keys. I only had one in 130+ runs.

  9. #869
    Free Food!?!?! Tziva's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GnomeEU View Post
    90% of all leavers left when runs either were still in time or it would be a few minutes over.
    Citation needed for sure on this claim. I don't know how anyone could even pretend to have data for this.

    I have had surprisingly few leavers lately but almost always for me they've been after multiple wipes when it's become very clear it's going to be a long, arduous run. I've definitely had a few assholes who leave after a singular wipe or bad pull when the dungeon is still 100% timeable, but those are very rare in my experience. Keys that literally aren't finishable are also very rare in my experience too (although probably because I try to be somewhat choosey with what groups I pick), but I would be very surprised if even the small majority of leavers were in keys that were still timeable or close, much less 90%.

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  10. #870
    Quote Originally Posted by Tziva View Post
    How many games with a "surrender" type option have you seen people who have determined they are going to lose just stop participating and demand everyone use it? Even in WoW BGs where there is literally no penalty for failure and you still get a small reward for a loss, half the team will just demand people "lose quick" and stop playing so they can get out and get into the next game. It sucks for people who are there to play rather than just grind honour. It's incredibly naive to think it won't happen in keys when they aren't going well. People will hold the group hostage with inactivity or griefing until the others confirm the surrender. I'm not sure how that is an improvement on the current situation where people just leave and those there for completion still are stuck starting over from scratch.

    I get that people don't like their time wasted by leavers killing a key but most of these proposed fixes wouldn't improving things and in some cases would make everything work.
    Pretty sure griefing is a punishable offense.....

  11. #871
    Free Food!?!?! Tziva's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ohwell View Post
    Pretty sure griefing is a punishable offense.....
    That doesn't really stop it from happening.

    It's also not something that is handled by an automated system. There's no reason leavers couldn't be handled the same way griefers are now.

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  12. #872
    Quote Originally Posted by GnomeEU View Post
    There are very rare cases where runs won't get completed at all. And 90% of all leavers left when runs either were still in time or it would be a few minutes over.

    Leavers are cancer. Just because you won't get your 10 points score or whatever doesn't mean that you won't ruin the weekly vault for 4 other players.

    You're not alone in the world.
    You waste my time if you leave.

    Most of those leavers are little spoiled children that don't think about anyone but themselves.

    It would be cool if Blizzard would add npcs to the run and reduce the loot if ppl left. So the run won't be completely ruined for everyone.
    What about people who push the score? Are they cancer?
    What about people who advertise "quick weekly" then invite their friend who does tank dps?
    Also it's pugs, you choose who you join and who you accept. Should people be punished for leaving pug raids now?

    People just don't realise that they would just kill pugging and the ones who would still be pugging would be 10 times more strict.

  13. #873
    Pandaren Monk Sugarcube's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    What about people who advertise "quick weekly" then invite their friend who does tank dps?
    lol holy shit... i joined a weekly key on my druid the other day, big mistake... there was a boomkin in ilvl 220 that was doing less dps than the tank... the tank was a blood dk... and was doing 2.5k dps... the dk left before first boss...
    Last edited by Sugarcube; 2021-05-03 at 02:45 AM.

  14. #874
    There are people who freak out over everything but i'm sorry to many people come to these forums and will completely gloss over l the actions of the party that made the person leave.

  15. #875
    Quote Originally Posted by callipygoustp View Post
    Seriously: what the fuck are people doing where "leavers" are enough of an issue that people are coming with a myriad of ridiculous "solutions". I certainly run into a leaver or toxic player here and there but not nearly enough that I want some wack-a-do system put into place to combat it.

    Learn to use raider.io more effectively. That's the solution for people who are frequently running into "leavers".
    So..we are doing +18´s and I ask for a group with 1600+ R.io score, DH appears, we pull some adds, fire mage does 4.3k in first pull, DH leaves. Yeah that is my bad for not "using raider.io effectively". The fact that this not happened to you, or not nearly as often as some of us (kudos) does not mean it does not happen frequently. Toxic players should be dealt with, not tolerate them. And its certainly much worse than before. And not just wow.

  16. #876
    Quote Originally Posted by Tziva View Post
    That doesn't really stop it from happening.

    It's also not something that is handled by an automated system. There's no reason leavers couldn't be handled the same way griefers are now.
    They don't consider it griefing at the moment and neither do I as people don't leave simply to harm others which is what griefing is. Rage quitting, however, is a form of griefing. Now if they come out tonight and say that they do feel it is, then so be it I'll report people. Then again I constantly report people for advertisement in group finder and nothing happens.

  17. #877
    Elemental Lord callipygoustp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimlokh View Post
    So..we are doing +18´s and I ask for a group with 1600+ R.io score, DH appears, we pull some adds, fire mage does 4.3k in first pull, DH leaves. Yeah that is my bad for not "using raider.io effectively". The fact that this not happened to you, or not nearly as often as some of us (kudos) does not mean it does not happen frequently. Toxic players should be dealt with, not tolerate them. And its certainly much worse than before. And not just wow.
    One specific scenario does not in any way shape or form change what I said.

    If you are regularly running into leavers, I repeat:
    Learn to use raider.io more effectively. That's the solution for people who are frequently running into "leavers".

  18. #878
    Quote Originally Posted by callipygoustp View Post
    One specific scenario does not in any way shape or form change what I said.

    If you are regularly running into leavers, I repeat:
    In your opinion what would be the cues to spot out a leaver in a rio profile?

  19. #879
    Punishments will only become abused in wichever direction they can. If the leaver gets a penatly ppl will just go afk and not leave holding the other effectively hostage.
    And if a votekick system is implemented ppl will grief by using that for the wrong purpuses, giving deserter debuffs to player who doesnt deserve it.

    The best solution is to simply remove the restriction of not being able to invite a new player. So if someone leaves, the group can just find a new player and keep going.

    And be4 someone says "but what about the 1/10000 players that will abuse it for world 1st ranks" with the new blizzard ingame score it would be quite easy to design it so t you cant up your score if youve swapped out players. So no top 0,1% abuse possible there either.
    None of us really changes over time. We only become more fully what we are.

  20. #880
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimlokh View Post
    So..we are doing +18´s and I ask for a group with 1600+ R.io score, DH appears, we pull some adds, fire mage does 4.3k in first pull, DH leaves. Yeah that is my bad for not "using raider.io effectively". The fact that this not happened to you, or not nearly as often as some of us (kudos) does not mean it does not happen frequently. Toxic players should be dealt with, not tolerate them. And its certainly much worse than before. And not just wow.
    The sad truth is... If more players acted like this DH while being in a group with that mage, guy may never have reached 1600+ score... At some point, I understand why there's ones who just can't play with people unable to press buttons... Especially on a +18, that's not anymore a "weekly no leavers" run there.

    Hopefully, most of the time PUGs are at an acceptable level to get weekly done. Did already more than 10 runs this week, the only bad one I had was a +16 TOP where the healer was unable to keep people up on the 1st pride, then on the pull after (with prideful buff...). Guys who died on that pull left just after. In this case, believe me, time is not wasted, but saved!

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