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  1. #881
    Quote Originally Posted by Clbull View Post
    There's also something wrong with a game company's management when half of their playerbase makes the typical player blow a gasket.

    WoW is not a pleasant experience for that reason.

    The anonymity and lack of consequences resulting from Blizzard cross-realming the shit out of everything allows players to get away with behaviour that would lead to their exclusion in almost any other social context. In fact, if somebody behaved in a remotely toxic manner IRL to what I've witnessed in this game, they'd probably be beaten up.
    Can't put that on Blizzard, that's a human nature problem. I've read there's another mmo, maybe FF or something else, where you get banned for looking at someone crooked.
    The most difficult thing for people to do is objectively look at something they don't like and be able to accept that it is not bad, that other people like it, and if it was changed to the way they'd like it that other people would not like it and want it changed back. The second most is to receive something they didn't want or ask for and be grateful for it, not immediately demand what they wanted instead.

  2. #882
    Quote Originally Posted by Sugarcube View Post
    so if you're playing with friends they can't go afk during the run because they'd get kicked?

    - - - Updated - - -



    i probably have higher score than you do lol... spear is the way on stitchflesh...
    so youre over 2.7k? dont belive so judging by your post history casualy, you would not cry on this forum if you would be near my score
    Last edited by Feral Druid ist Op; 2021-05-03 at 12:08 PM.
    I.O BFA Season 3


  3. #883
    Dreadlord
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    Bonus rolls and wf tf

  4. #884
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    A lot of high io players will leave even if a run is going fine because something doesn’t meet their definition of optimal. We were easily on pace to time the key until he started acting like a dick.

    I can’t for the life of me understand how a person ends up like that.
    its not "our" definition of optimal, its how the key is played and if you pull less than ppl pull on a +25 then yea i would be annoyed too, the pug tank special inv 2 fire mages and pull 1 pack at the time
    I.O BFA Season 3


  5. #885
    The Patient
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    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Can't put that on Blizzard, that's a human nature problem. I've read there's another mmo, maybe FF or something else, where you get banned for looking at someone crooked.
    Final Fantasy XIV is what happens when a publisher genuinely gives a damn about how players behave in their game.

    Do I think they go a bit heavy-handed with their ban policy? Yes. I'll give two different examples of streamers who were banned for toxic behaviour on their stream.

    Xenosys_Vex was suspended for vulgar comments he made on stream, not posted in game. That I think is going overboard, but it's worth noting that he was a major community figure in the FFXIV community and was thus subject to FFXIV's Materials Usage Agreement, which has stricter behavioural standards for people seen as mentors and ambassadors of the brand.

    Arthars was suspended for publicly shaming a player on his stream for their low DPS numbers and encouraging viewers to harass said player. Targeted harassment should definitely be a bannable offence.

    In all honestly I'd rather have heavy-handed but also well-intentioned moderation over the wild west of ineffective machine learning algorithms that Blizzard have.

    I cannot vouch for the state of FFXIV's endgame community because the highest I've levelled a character is 46, but the community surrounding low level content is like the antithesis of WoW's. Players are generally supportive, educating and will rarely if ever initiate a vote kick.

    The only reason I'm not playing that game over WoW is because I generally loathe MMORPG questing and the mandatory main scenario quests of FFXIV are no exception. Imagine if, in order to experience Shadowlands, you had to complete every main story questline (including quest lines released in later patches) in Classic, Burning Crusade, Wrath of the Lich King, Cataclysm, Mists of Pandaria, Warlords of Draenor, Legion AND Battle for Azeroth before you could even step foot into The Maw.

    FFXIV's progression is like that. You have to complete ARR's MSQs before you can even step foot in Heavensward content. You have to complete Heavensward content before you can enter Stormblood content. You have to complete Stormblood content before you can step foot into Shadowbringers content, and so on. That's already being forced to play through 3 expansions worth of content just to catch up.
    Last edited by Clbull; 2021-05-03 at 12:32 PM.

  6. #886
    Quote Originally Posted by Clbull View Post
    I think you just came up with the million dollar game idea that would kill World of Warcraft.

    It wouldn't be a MMORPG. MMOs are far too costly to run and every developer that has tried to dethrone WoW, except maybe for a select few, have not only failed but gone out of business as a result of trying to chase that gold rush.

    Rather, it would be a mere free to play online multiplayer focused dungeon crawler, with similar tab-targeting and action bar based combat, OR telegraphed action combat like Wildstar had. Think a bit like Neverwinter if the game were only centred around instanced dungeons. Money would be made with boosts and cosmetics, to avoid the game going P2W. There would be a basic tutorial that explains clearly to the player basic mechanics like threat, aggro, damage dealing, healing, mana efficiency, interrupts, crowd control, etc.

    Dungeons are isolated levels which you can either tackle solo or in a group of up to 5 players. They scale based on players and each have their own separate leaderboards once hard modes are factored in.

    Classes would be abundant with plenty of talent trees, item, spec and role choices. Roles would be the holy trinity of tanking, DPS and healing. Once you hit max level (probably around 30), the endgame which involves hard mode dungeons and instanced raids of up to 40 concurrent players would open up.

    That is the game that would kill WoW.
    I'd love to see such a game as a AAA project where everything is polished and feels right. BioWare were doing it actually, shortly after the big release and big fall of SWTOR they had announced Shadow Realms (I think that was the name), which was aiming to be an online dungeon crawler including the fun things you describe, some of the people who worked on SWTOR were working on it, but it got cancelled after an year or so.

    I'm not sure what they are trying with WoW at the moment but between Torghast/islands/warfronts/mage tower, dungeons and raids, the world content might as well not be there. I even get my crafting mats from the mission table.

  7. #887
    The solution for M+ leavers is pretty easy...

    Don't play content designed for permanent groups with random guys.

    "Problem" solved.

  8. #888
    Quote Originally Posted by Velshin View Post
    The thing is before he left he was dying by standing in shit and not avoiding cone. After 4 deaths in the row I asked him politely if he has any issues with lagging or something is wrong? he didn't reply or said anything and carried on and kept dying and dying then he said f""' it" and left. This is the entire story there is no cover up and no "more into the story than that" that is exactly what happened. There is also a possibility that he doesn't understand English very well maybe.
    It may be all of YOUR side of the story. Again, I'm not insinuating anything from you. This may very well have been how you saw everything. It's always interesting to see what the person being blamed has to say.

    And yes, them not understanding English is not too uncommon. MMO language barriers are a struggle. And I played a MMO for years where English and Japanese players are mixed together.

  9. #889
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuntantee View Post
    Leaving and depleting others key on a whim over a small argument composed of 2 exchanges is extremely toxic. Not to mention the run was going rather smooth.
    It's not. I can't be bothered to look at some dipshits arguing either because obviously if they are typing they are not playing

  10. #890
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    just because its weekly it doesnt mean that peopel are willing to put in 1,5 hour or like 100 deaths into run

    if i see tank pulling like moron / group being unable to do clean first pull or having like 10 deaths before first boss i will leave since my time is to precious to waste it

    just last night i was seriously considering multiple times bailing on mists 15 because group filled with 1800-1900 people behaved like people with 600 io failing so badly on so many basic stuff that it was crazy - or 1800 monk constantly - i mean constantly dying in PF15.

    honestly i had thought that they all bought those accounts because there shouldnt be reason either for 1800 people to do +15 or fail so badly .

    want example ? if i see group in DoS/HoS who is unable to clean up first pull with BL and all cds up only wipes there there is 0 chances i will stick with such group because there are sooo many so much harder pulls in there that key clear will be nightmare.

    if i was a streamer who plays wow 8 hours a day as my job then i would likely just bite it and always stay . but in pug ? no chance in hell. and i dont care how many angry whispers i will get after from group leaders who just wanted to be carried by others
    im not talking about 1.5 hours tho, here's a example my paladin had a necrotic wake 11 last week week as his 1st key i put it up as weekly as last week was crap for keys and i wanted it done for vault, everything was fine till we reached the 2nd boss we wipe twice due to people not wanting to kill adds we kill it on 3rd try some1 misses 1st hook on 3rd and healer insta leaves, even i make a mistake with the hook it happens, we would have been ever by like 3-4 mins but the healer wasn't interested.

    rest i can agree with but with some people their precious io is more important to them, heck ill give you another example had a tank leave mid fight last boss because the timer ran out, like why????? i don't advertise my keys as do them in time or abandon

  11. #891
    Quote Originally Posted by Feral Druid ist Op View Post
    its not "our" definition of optimal, its how the key is played and if you pull less than ppl pull on a +25 then yea i would be annoyed too, the pug tank special inv 2 fire mages and pull 1 pack at the time
    What a silly perspective. Expecting a pug 15 to operate with the same level of coordination and mob control as a team running +25 is ridiculous.

    If you want to maximize your success on a pug 15, your focus is often on avoiding situations where inexperienced pugs fail.

    As a specific example, my first time pugging SOA 12. I pulled two packs, exactly as the Dratnos guide says, and someone pulled the goliath. I lived but everyone else died, 7 deaths later we had a leaver and the group was done.

    So I stopped pulling it, and you can still time it fine on 12 without that double pull. Why take the risk when playing with 900 io pugs?

    But then as you go higher it evolves. By 15, maybe 50% of groups are pulling both packs, and on 17-18 you’ll see some groups pull both packs and the goliath. This works because people at 17-18 are massively more knowledgeable than 15s and they can handle the interrupts, ccs, they blow CDs, etc.

    But when you have a dps who pops into a +14 when they usually run 18s, they often idiotically try to push groups towards strategies that a +14 group isn’t ready for cause “mah dps” and then they blame the tank when it goes wrong.

    In my experience, some of the dumbest things I’ve seen people do in m+ come from the high rates io characters playing a lower key and acting like an idiot.

    To your specific example of a pug tank with 2 fire mages - are the mages interrupting? Are they pulling aggro because they pop cds before the packs are grouped? Are they using utility to help keep the tank alive?

    Because that’s what we tanks have to deal with at lower keys: “pull two packs”, but someone busts combust on the first pack while you’re pulling the second pack, no one interrupts, and someone says “oh, I forgot it was necrotic!” when you’re at 70% trash and you have been running for your life all dungeon.
    Last edited by Scrod; 2021-05-03 at 05:05 PM.
    The desperate last chance response of a person who is losing an argument on the forums:

    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    You DO realize that even if every user ever on these forums agreed with you, something even you would admit is impossible, that would not be 0.0001% of the player base, right? But sure, enjoy your echo chamber if you want.

  12. #892
    Quote Originally Posted by Clbull View Post
    Final Fantasy XIV is what happens when a publisher genuinely gives a damn about how players behave in their game.

    Do I think they go a bit heavy-handed with their ban policy? Yes. I'll give two different examples of streamers who were banned for toxic behaviour on their stream.

    Xenosys_Vex was suspended for vulgar comments he made on stream, not posted in game. That I think is going overboard, but it's worth noting that he was a major community figure in the FFXIV community and was thus subject to FFXIV's Materials Usage Agreement, which has stricter behavioural standards for people seen as mentors and ambassadors of the brand.

    Arthars was suspended for publicly shaming a player on his stream for their low DPS numbers and encouraging viewers to harass said player. Targeted harassment should definitely be a bannable offence.

    In all honestly I'd rather have heavy-handed but also well-intentioned moderation over the wild west of ineffective machine learning algorithms that Blizzard have.

    I cannot vouch for the state of FFXIV's endgame community because the highest I've levelled a character is 46, but the community surrounding low level content is like the antithesis of WoW's. Players are generally supportive, educating and will rarely if ever initiate a vote kick.

    The only reason I'm not playing that game over WoW is because I generally loathe MMORPG questing and the mandatory main scenario quests of FFXIV are no exception. Imagine if, in order to experience Shadowlands, you had to complete every main story questline (including quest lines released in later patches) in Classic, Burning Crusade, Wrath of the Lich King, Cataclysm, Mists of Pandaria, Warlords of Draenor, Legion AND Battle for Azeroth before you could even step foot into The Maw.

    FFXIV's progression is like that. You have to complete ARR's MSQs before you can even step foot in Heavensward content. You have to complete Heavensward content before you can enter Stormblood content. You have to complete Stormblood content before you can step foot into Shadowbringers content, and so on. That's already being forced to play through 3 expansions worth of content just to catch up.
    Wow, that progression is brutal. That's like the BC attunement on steroids. Speaking of being punished for doing things outside their usual area, the Supreme Court recently declined to review a case questioning whether schools could punish children for what they said on social media. Scary world.
    The most difficult thing for people to do is objectively look at something they don't like and be able to accept that it is not bad, that other people like it, and if it was changed to the way they'd like it that other people would not like it and want it changed back. The second most is to receive something they didn't want or ask for and be grateful for it, not immediately demand what they wanted instead.

  13. #893
    Warchief Sugarcube's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feral Druid ist Op View Post
    so youre over 2.7k? dont belive so judging by your post history casualy, you would not cry on this forum if you would be near my score
    you've posted a link to your char...

    Quote Originally Posted by Feral Druid ist Op View Post

    https://raider.io/characters/eu/blackrock/Flyduk

    you're not 2.7k...

    edit: lol... why the fuck are you posting other people's characters and claim they are yours?

    first you post a picture:

    Quote Originally Posted by Feral Druid ist Op View Post
    gj you rnd wufwuf made me log in, now back into your cave mr 50000 raider

    https://imgur.com/a/vxzSOwc
    17495 achievment points...

    https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/ch...tures/torghast

    21670 achievment points... dates don't match up on the showed achievments...
    Last edited by Sugarcube; 2021-05-03 at 04:13 PM.

  14. #894
    Are we asking for a system to punish people from the community that had to add kick protection to protect its playerbase?

  15. #895
    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    Are we asking for a system to punish people from the community that had to add kick protection to protect its playerbase?
    yes because we need some sorta punishment for ppl that quickly bail keys

  16. #896
    Please wait Temp name's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thunderdragon2 View Post
    yes because we need some sorta punishment for ppl that quickly bail keys
    And what's your solution?

    Is it to have them just afk/refuse to participate instead of leave? Because that's what most of the proposed "fixes" would do

  17. #897
    Quote Originally Posted by Temp name View Post
    And what's your solution?

    Is it to have them just afk/refuse to participate instead of leave? Because that's what most of the proposed "fixes" would do
    No it's simple. The system should just "know" when someone left because they are toxic, and it'll differentiate from ppl leaving because their grandma was in fact, on fire.

  18. #898
    Please wait Temp name's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    No it's simple. The system should just "know" when someone left because they are toxic, and it'll differentiate from ppl leaving because their grandma was in fact, on fire.
    even if a magical system could know exactly why someone left at all times with 0 wrong calls.. Then the toxic guys would just afk in the dungeon to not get punished.

    And if you then punish people who get the afk tag, but only if they do it maliciously instead of have something urgent to take care of, the toxic guy will start jumping every 4 minutes

    And if you then punish people who do that and somehow don't punish the people who do it because the key was dead anyway and are just chatting on voice, then the toxic guy will log off

    and repeat forever.
    There will never, *ever* be an automated system that punishes all the malicious actors without hitting any innocent people. So Blizzard has done the best they can, and that's nothing at all, because nothing is better than something in 99% of cases

  19. #899
    Quote Originally Posted by Temp name View Post
    even if a magical system could know exactly why someone left at all times with 0 wrong calls.. Then the toxic guys would just afk in the dungeon to not get punished.

    And if you then punish people who get the afk tag, but only if they do it maliciously instead of have something urgent to take care of, the toxic guy will start jumping every 4 minutes

    And if you then punish people who do that and somehow don't punish the people who do it because the key was dead anyway and are just chatting on voice, then the toxic guy will log off

    and repeat forever.
    There will never, *ever* be an automated system that punishes all the malicious actors without hitting any innocent people. So Blizzard has done the best they can, and that's nothing at all, because nothing is better than something in 99% of cases
    I completely agree. I think most ppl requesting changes just haven't thought it out. If you somehow convinced them that an automated system wouldn't work, they'd tell u that blizz shld hire ppl to look thru reports haha

  20. #900
    Quote Originally Posted by Tziva View Post
    This has been addressed a zillion times in this thread, including in the rest of the very post you partially quoted. If the system starts to penalise people for leaving, then they won't. Instead keys will be held hostage by intentional DCs, AFKers or griefers who don't want to lose their points. At absolutely best, this wastes even more time than leavers already do. At worst, innocent people will be forced take the penalty just to get out of those toxic runs.
    Much of why I'm not a fan of places like raider.io and the generic concept of there being a score for these is that without repercussion or penalty it is just an inflated number. At the really high level it becomes more about people who maintain a certain skill level which, in of itself, doesn't need a rating as it is the norm but for everything else you could have someone in say the 700s or 800s who is a complete c*nt and fucks over pugs while doing guild runs to improve their score and nothing happens to them. Or someone who clearly has no clue what the M+ is supposed to be like because they bought a handful of M+ keys and then they just keep sucking and who suffers... the innocent people who are trying to run the key.

    The amount of innocent people getting caught in the crossfire would be minimal compared to the amount of people who have had their keys tanked by assholes, morons and dickwads playing the game who are selfish and just want a free carry through whatever. The concern for that small amount of people becomes the majority factor as to why there is no penalty so we just keep putting up with a bunch of pricks because NOTHING HAPPENS TO THEM because you don't want a handful of people to be negatively impacted.

    You can't win with these rules... damned if you do, damned if you don't.

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