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  1. #901
    Quote Originally Posted by faunski View Post
    In your opinion what would be the cues to spot out a leaver in a rio profile?
    The problem in those situations is not the leaver. Its the awful player. In the absence of rude or abusive behaviours people will only leave if the run is not going to be timed because the group is carrying someone terrible. You can use Rio to more effectively filter those players out.

    Rio is the only point in doing an 18. Its perfectly reasonable to leave a group if that objective is not going to be met.

  2. #902
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorothyjean View Post
    The amount of innocent people getting caught in the crossfire would be minimal compared to the amount of people who have had their keys tanked by assholes, morons and dickwads playing the game who are selfish and just want a free carry through whatever. The concern for that small amount of people becomes the majority factor as to why there is no penalty so we just keep putting up with a bunch of pricks because NOTHING HAPPENS TO THEM because you don't want a handful of people to be negatively impacted.
    But it's not a small amount of people; it's the same number. For every potential leaver in a run there are four other people. There's always four times the amount of innocents affected by their behaviour, whether that behaviour is simply leaving or whether it is exploiting a system to avoid a leaver penalty. We're not talking about separate pools of people. We're talking about the same people. No matter how you slice it, such a system is always risking increased toxicity for four people just to punish one.

    If one creates a system that actively encourages people to engage in more toxic behaviour rather than just leaving, you're taking four people who were previously the victim of simply having some time wasted and now making them victims of much worse behaviour and potentially also having their score damaged because they wanted to get away from someone else's actions. Worse, not only do the innocent people suffer more, but the leaver ultimately doesn't end up punished because he didn't actually end up leaving first, and he's now trained that that behaviour works. You know it would happen because the kind of people who don't give a shit about other players to the point where they will just break their keys because it saves them ten minutes are exactly the type of people who are going to selfishly try to protect their score at the expensive of others. In the end, not only does it create a worse experience for people than they already have, but it doesn't even end up effectively doing what it is supposed to do, which is discourage leaving keys.

    You can't let your desire for retribution outweigh the realistic ramifications of these systems. I get the emotional desire to want to punish leavers and discourage it from happening, but I also think it's very naive to think that any kind of automated system could do this effectively and without a lot of repercussions to the rest of us.

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  3. #903
    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    It's not. I can't be bothered to look at some dipshits arguing either because obviously if they are typing they are not playing
    You are a toxic player that people are complaining about. The community would teach you some manners, if it wasn't for cross-realm.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Clbull View Post
    On the other hand, flagging toxic players via a downloadable addon would help players know who to avoid grouping with. It would make M+ (and possibly even PvP) a far better experience. It would also serve as a tool to help guilds screen which players to welcome into their ranks.

    The idea isn't foolproof. The two problems I see is that screenshots can easily be faked so you'd possibly need alternative corroborating evidence of bad behaviour, and you'd need a trusted group of people to curate the list, because if everybody could just automatically add people, the system would quickly become a cesspool of abuse.

    Another issue is that Blizzard could turn around and C&D the addon, or disable core functionality that potentially screws over similar addons like Raider.io and Wowrep.io, along with many others. Then again, they didn't give a solitary crap when Nnoggie tried to paywall Mythic Dungeon Tools, or towards Zygor charging for his addon guides.
    I am up for whatever at this point. Any filter, be through an addon or otherwise, that can filter toxic, immature and intolerant fuckwits is simply welcome in my eyes. I just don't think it is achievable with an addon. In fact, as I said, I don't think this is achievable at all without getting rid of cross-realm, which has its own advantages.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Temp name View Post
    And what's your solution?

    Is it to have them just afk/refuse to participate instead of leave? Because that's what most of the proposed "fixes" would do
    This has been addressed. They kick you. If you keep getting kicked, the problem isn't others, it's you. Then you get a penalty. This has been deployed to CS:GO. Each competitive CS:GO match can be considered a single M+ run. The sample size in that game is significantly bigger than that of WoW. Guess what... It works. In my experience (and I am talking about my own bans), if you keep getting kicked, the problem is you.

    That's being said, it's extremely hard to come up with a good formula that addresses this problem. I admit that.
    Last edited by Kuntantee; 2021-05-03 at 05:56 PM.

  4. #904
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuntantee View Post
    This has been addressed. They kick you. If you keep getting kicked, the problem isn't others, it's you. Then you get a penalty. This has been deployed to CS:GO. Each competitive CS:GO match can be considered a single M+ run. There sample size in there is significantly bigger than that of WoW. Guess what, it works. In my experience (and I am talking about my own bans), if you keep getting kicked, the problem is you.
    lol... i keep getting kicked when i told other russians or turkish players to speak english so people can understand... it doesn't work at all...

  5. #905
    Quote Originally Posted by Temp name View Post
    And what's your solution?

    Is it to have them just afk/refuse to participate instead of leave? Because that's what most of the proposed "fixes" would do
    their punishment would be loss of their precious io score

    or blizzard add a data point that shows how many keys that player has abandoned ( this number wont include keys that were intentionally lowered an example of this i was trying to help a friend get his 10 achievement so he could upgrade his gear but all i had was a 15 of the dungeon he needed, instead of trying to force our way through the 15 we drop it to a 12 which is more manageable it wont count as 3 abandoned keys
    Last edited by thunderdragon2; 2021-05-03 at 06:02 PM.

  6. #906
    Quote Originally Posted by Tziva View Post
    You can't let your desire for retribution outweigh the realistic ramifications of these systems. I get the emotional desire to want to punish leavers and discourage it from happening, but I also think it's very naive to think that any kind of automated system could do this effectively and without a lot of repercussions to the rest of us.
    It's hard but not as hard as you think it is. You just need to spend some time thinking about it. The biggest obstacle is entitlement of WoW players, because CS:GO, which solved (you read it right, they solved griefing in CS:GO to a large extent) this problem, is a buy-to-play game. So Valve is more than happy to ban you for a month for the repeated toxic offender you are. Do this in WoW, people may or may not re-sub. The latter is a financial problem for WoW but don't give me "this is not possible" BS. Yes, it's hard, but doable. Others did it. Valve also did it on DotA too.

  7. #907
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuntantee View Post
    It's not as hard as you think it is. You just need to spend some time thinking about it. The biggest obstacle is entitlement of WoW players, because CS:GO, which solved (you read it right, they solved griefing in that game) this problem, is a buy-to-play game. So Valve is more than happy to ban you for a month for the repeated toxic offender you are. Do this in WoW, people may or may not re-sub. The latter is a financial problem for WoW but don't give me "this is not possible" BS. Yes, it's hard, but doable. Others did it. Valve also did it on DotA too.
    cs:go hasn't been a buy-to-play game for a long time now... it became f2p in 2018... and no... they didn't solve griefing lol... last time i played i had people from my team running in front of me intentionally when using awp...
    Last edited by Sugarcube; 2021-05-03 at 06:04 PM.

  8. #908
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigundies View Post
    how about the player who leaves the dungeon gets a special unremovable title saying something along the lines of "I Just left a key dont inv me"
    So how about a player who wants to leave the dungeon but doesn't want that title so they just goof around in the dungeon until you leave first and now you have the unremovable title and they get to go to the next group instead?

    Best case scenario is that they "goof around". Worse case scenario is they purposely play badly by doing activities that will cause repeated wipes.
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  9. #909
    Quote Originally Posted by Sugarcube View Post
    cs:go hasn't been a buy-to-play game for a long time now... it became f2p in 2018... and no... they didn't solve griefing lol... last time i played i had people from my team running in front of me intentionally when using awp...
    Do not derail, but anyone with a half-brain wouldn't play cs:go w/o prime. It's filled with cheaters. When I make a comment about CS:GO, assume it's prime.

  10. #910
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuntantee View Post
    Do not derail, but anyone with a half-brain wouldn't play cs:go w/o prime. It's filled with cheaters. When I make a comment about CS:GO, assume it's prime.
    you can obtain prime in f2p... you don't have to pay for it...

  11. #911
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    Quote Originally Posted by justandulas View Post
    Fact is, until the community either has a quit tracker, OR blizzard actually punishes people who quit too much... this will continue, get worse, and far more toxic.
    Or the community realizes that PuG M+ has inherent flaws and decides to form communities/groups to run keys only within those groups. This way accountability can be provided... Oh wait that's what Blizzard intended from the beginning?
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  12. #912
    Quote Originally Posted by Tziva View Post
    But it's not a small amount of people; it's the same number. For every potential leaver in a run there are four other people. There's always four times the amount of innocents affected by their behaviour, whether that behaviour is simply leaving or whether it is exploiting a system to avoid a leaver penalty. We're not talking about separate pools of people. We're talking about the same people. No matter how you slice it, such a system is always risking increased toxicity for four people just to punish one.

    If one creates a system that actively encourages people to engage in more toxic behaviour rather than just leaving, you're taking four people who were previously the victim of simply having some time wasted and now making them victims of much worse behaviour and potentially also having their score damaged because they wanted to get away from someone else's actions. Worse, not only do the innocent people suffer more, but the leaver ultimately doesn't end up punished because he didn't actually end up leaving first, and he's now trained that that behaviour works. You know it would happen because the kind of people who don't give a shit about other players to the point where they will just break their keys because it saves them ten minutes are exactly the type of people who are going to selfishly try to protect their score at the expensive of others. In the end, not only does it create a worse experience for people than they already have, but it doesn't even end up effectively doing what it is supposed to do, which is discourage leaving keys.

    You can't let your desire for retribution outweigh the realistic ramifications of these systems. I get the emotional desire to want to punish leavers and discourage it from happening, but I also think it's very naive to think that any kind of automated system could do this effectively and without a lot of repercussions to the rest of us.
    Then there is no solution and we're back to square one where we already have a semi-toxic community (depending on the level) alongside a number that only rewards your advances and doesn't look at the toxic side of what you've done. So ultimately nothing works then...

    It's probably why we live in a place right now where Upvotes are all that matters and downvotes are slowly going away because people just want to ignore the problems and allow it to continue with the belief that it'll just go away. It has nothing to do with retribution also but if nothing will be done about M+ leavers and they are allowed to do whatever they want and it tanks the M+... than Blizzard needs to change M+ systems so that they can pug people coming in.

  13. #913
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    Quote Originally Posted by GnomeEU View Post
    You waste my time if you leave.
    An interesting viewpoint, so what if the person who wants to leave says: You're wasting my time for making a 30 minute run into an hour (or longer) run?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Aphrel View Post
    The best solution is to simply remove the restriction of not being able to invite a new player. So if someone leaves, the group can just find a new player and keep going.
    And then a sudden surge of boosting sells start up a thousand fold. Think about it: Run a successful group all the way to the last boss, kick 1 person, sell last spot for a quick and easy +20 key done (plus you get dungeon teleport).
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  14. #914
    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    And then a sudden surge of boosting sells start up a thousand fold. Think about it: Run a successful group all the way to the last boss, kick 1 person, sell last spot for a quick and easy +20 key done (plus you get dungeon teleport).
    I am fine with that so long as it's contained on its own communication channels; no advertisement in trade chat, no advertisement in group finder. I mean I'd take it no problem whatsoever if it's going to tune down toxicity in this game.

  15. #915
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clbull View Post
    FFXIV's progression is like that. You have to complete ARR's MSQs before you can even step foot in Heavensward content. You have to complete Heavensward content before you can enter Stormblood content. You have to complete Stormblood content before you can step foot into Shadowbringers content, and so on. That's already being forced to play through 3 expansions worth of content just to catch up.
    I thought FFXIV has story skips that you can buy (effectively level boosts) and you could bypass most of that?
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  16. #916
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuntantee View Post
    It's hard but not as hard as you think it is. You just need to spend some time thinking about it. The biggest obstacle is entitlement of WoW players, because CS:GO, which solved (you read it right, they solved griefing in CS:GO to a large extent) this problem, is a buy-to-play game. So Valve is more than happy to ban you for a month for the repeated toxic offender you are. Do this in WoW, people may or may not re-sub. The latter is a financial problem for WoW but don't give me "this is not possible" BS. Yes, it's hard, but doable. Others did it. Valve also did it on DotA too.
    I'm not familiar with the CSGO system but I don't think a system that automatches people and backfills can be compared to a complex system like M+ where groups are premade and don't backfill. The variables and impact of various functions is too different, the cost:benefit is too different, and you're talking about games where the entire game starts and ends in each match and the dynamic is much more simple.

    And to be very clear, I'm not against punishing leavers and I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm saying an automated system to do so would do more harm than good. An automated system can't tell between someone who left because they thought it would be hilarious to kill someone's key and someone who left because the mage has been fucking around doing nothing most of the run. An automated system can't tell the difference between someone who left because they didn't like the route the tank is using, and someone who left because the tank was yelling racial slurs at them. An automated system can't tell if someone had a dozen unfinished keys because they are a chronic leaver, or if they have a dozen unfinished runs because they happen to PuG a ton and encounter leavers much more frequently than others.

    I think by far the most effective way to action leavers is to make it reportable so runs can be manually reviewed and addressed that way. If they want to automate escalation for manual review based on frequency or number reports or something, fine, but at the end of the day, I think in a system as complex as m+ is there absolutely needs to be an actual human reviewing things. Blizzard won't do this, so the next best thing I think is what we're dealing with now: occasionally having some time wasted because every now and then someone drops group for whatever reason.

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  17. #917
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    Solution is easy. First leave = 1 day ban from M+. Second leave = 1 week ban from WoW. Third leave = 1 month ban from all Blizzard games. Fourth leave = ban all battle.net accounts and blacklist the person.

    If 4 people vote at once, then it equals to leave (to prevent AFKers). Banned person can put a ticket to appeal the vote. Moderator will review it and either ban all who voted or extend ban to the next level it that ban was warranted.

    Also make it an option for all people to vote to stop M+ run. If everyone agrees, it's stopped and everyone can leave.

    It'll allow to get rid of most leaves. A lot of players will start running M+, WoW player base numbers will rocket to the moon, WoW will be the most profitable game again. But Blizzard did not get proper cohones to execute that strategy. Too bad. The solution is really on the surface.

  18. #918
    Leavers just aren't a real problem. All solutions mooted so far without exception create vastly worse situations than a few players who leave when grouped with players doing content far beyond their actual ability. Bans, tracking, all these things just create far more problems than they solve.

    No-one should be held hostage in a bad group.

    Honestly, if people are leaving your keys frequently... It might well be you. With all these issues a healthy degree of introspection is useful, and of course you (not addressing anyone specific here) may just be unfortunate, but the vast majority of leavers are not leaving keys which are going to be successful.
    Last edited by Fenrys; 2021-05-03 at 06:35 PM.

  19. #919
    Quote Originally Posted by vsb View Post
    Solution is easy. First leave = 1 day ban from M+. Second leave = 1 week ban from WoW. Third leave = 1 month ban from all Blizzard games. Fourth leave = ban all battle.net accounts and blacklist the person.

    If 4 people vote at once, then it equals to leave (to prevent AFKers). Banned person can put a ticket to appeal the vote. Moderator will review it and either ban all who voted or extend ban to the next level it that ban was warranted.

    Also make it an option for all people to vote to stop M+ run. If everyone agrees, it's stopped and everyone can leave.

    It'll allow to get rid of most leaves. A lot of players will start running M+, WoW player base numbers will rocket to the moon, WoW will be the most profitable game again. But Blizzard did not get proper cohones to execute that strategy. Too bad. The solution is really on the surface.
    How about no?

    I have zero desire to be taken hostage in a mythic plus like I am in a lost league of legend game. I've not seen people leaving a key going well on mass... odd are if people are living your keys constantly the key is doomed.

  20. #920
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuntantee View Post
    I am fine with that so long as it's contained on its own communication channels; no advertisement in trade chat, no advertisement in group finder. I mean I'd take it no problem whatsoever if it's going to tune down toxicity in this game.
    lol what the fuck... you think toxicity is going to be tuned down by being able to replace people in m+?

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