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  1. #961
    Please wait Temp name's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aphrel View Post
    Sounds like something that should be bannable.

    But an easy fix would be no achievs or score points awarded if a person has left the group.
    But then what's the point in letting people join? Because no one's going to join anything higher than a 14 if you don't get achievement or score, and if you still get gear, then boosting meta will be to do it with 5 people and then one leaves to invite the boostee for the last boss.. Or hell, 2 boostees if you have good burst. And you can just find a random 5th guy with a key and kick him for it, so you don't even have to use your own key to boost anymore!

    Another would be the fact that players dont get ported out of dungs. So if a group is griefing a player by kicking him be4 last boss, he can just stay inside and hold the dung hostage.
    And then a person can leave and grief the key by not letting the group invite someone else anyway. Congratz, you defeated your own system

    No solution is perfect but i think alot of solutions would be better than the current one.
    No, because it'll be more likely to negatively impact players than what we have now.

  2. #962
    Epic! Alroxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aphrel View Post
    So if a group is griefing a player by kicking him be4 last boss, he can just stay inside and hold the dung hostage.
    So now the offended party gets to be the offender? Pass. The whole point is to make a punishment system where you can curb the bad behavior but not accidentally punish the innocents AND prevent players from holding other players hostage.

    The cure cannot be worse than the disease that it is trying to cure.
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  3. #963
    Quote Originally Posted by Temp name View Post
    Just like someone leaving your key is a rarity. If you find it isn't a rarity, better screen the people joining your keys
    Happens to me every single day. This is precisely why I stopped doing my keys, because I am more annoyed when its me. Leavers in CS:GO is what you'd call a "rarity", guess why...

  4. #964
    Free Food!?!?! Tziva's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuntantee View Post
    Happens to me every single day. This is precisely why I stopped doing my keys, because I am more annoyed when its me. Leavers in CS:GO is what you'd call a "rarity", guess why...
    Sincere questions: How many keys a day do you PuG? In what key range? What do your runs usually go like?

    Most weeks I do what I would consider "a lot" of keys (my top week I had over 50 in one week, but most weeks I do about 20 across a few characters), and I see leavers a few times a month. Sometimes on shitty weeks I might see as many as a couple a week but every single day seems very very abnormal.

    Either you do an insane number of keys a day, or you might want to evaluate if you're doing is upsetting people since you're the common variable in these runs. I'm not accusing you of being bad or rude, but I also know people who don't take the time for the introspection to realise they are being excessively hostile and that is turning people away.

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  5. #965
    Epic! Alroxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tziva View Post
    Sincere questions
    It's really quite odd too. For some reason, anecdotally it seems that Latin American servers (Ragnaros and Quel'thalas specifically) have a higher chance of bailing when the run doesn't look like it will be made in time.

    Not sure why but players from those realms don't communicate and just check out when things go moderately wrong (i.e. a serious wipe or more).
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  6. #966
    Quote Originally Posted by Temp name View Post
    But then what's the point in letting people join? Because no one's going to join anything higher than a 14 if you don't get achievement or score, and if you still get gear, then boosting meta will be to do it with 5 people and then one leaves to invite the boostee for the last boss.. Or hell, 2 boostees if you have good burst. And you can just find a random 5th guy with a key and kick him for it, so you don't even have to use your own key to boost anymore!

    And then a person can leave and grief the key by not letting the group invite someone else anyway. Congratz, you defeated your own system

    No, because it'll be more likely to negatively impact players than what we have now.
    The point of being able to invite a new 5th player would be to just be able to finish your weekly run (this is the most common case). This is the big + in the comparison. The reason i excluded achieves and scores was specifically to deter boosting. As many ppl buy boost not for the weekly chest but for the score.

    The 2nd line about a person being able to leave and grief is a plus/minus 0 because that is already possible under the current system.

    Overall im counting one +.

    You need to realize, im not advocating for a perfect system. Im making a comparision between two systems.
    Count all the pros and the negatives. Not just the negatives. We arent comparing to some perfectworld scenario, we are comparing to the current scenario.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    I would be way more frustrated after being kicked once to make some space to someones buddy/boost than all the frustration I had from key leavers. I don't get that many tho because I mostly do my keys and I filter people.
    There might be a solution to leavers out there, but I don't think any of the mentioned in this thread would work because it must accommodate full pugs, part premades and full premades in a fully player made composition who might have different goals (push/weekly/completion )where you can't tell if someone left/was kicked for valid reason unless you manually review it and actually understand how m+ runs in that context. Being toxic would be easy, but how would you know if someone was griefing by ass pulling/intentionally bad dps/healing/semi-afking/not using skips and so on and when was that intentional?
    Lol has intentional feeding report, but I have been reported by full teams for intentional feeding after I was counter-jungling and died. Nothing has ever come from it.
    Im not sure where in my post you got the impression that my suggestion included a vote kick. It didnt.
    Nor do you get ported out of the dung so if a group is being assholes you could hold the dung hostage.

    All in all if a person wants to greif, its already possible to grief today. My suggestion netiher improves nor make that possibility worse.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    So now the offended party gets to be the offender? Pass. The whole point is to make a punishment system where you can curb the bad behavior but not accidentally punish the innocents AND prevent players from holding other players hostage.

    The cure cannot be worse than the disease that it is trying to cure.
    No, that wasn't my point at all. It might be your point and if you have a suggestion of such a system im all ears.

    My point was to improve the system in one way without negatively impact any other. Never did i attempt to fix all possible forms of greifing. I don' think thats even possible without alot of manpower.
    Last edited by Aphrel; 2021-05-05 at 08:08 AM.
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  7. #967
    Epic! Alroxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aphrel View Post
    No, that wasn't my point at all. It might be your point and if you have a suggestion of such a system im all ears.
    The original system is M+ should be done with fellow players that you know as either guildmates or online friends. This way there exist already a social contract that if they become douchy, you can just stop playing with them. And for those with limited friends or a dead guild (because content lull), then make more online friends or join a new guild.

    There was a previous poster who didn't want to join new guilds because past history has had bad experiences. But even with those bad experiences they still continue to play WoW so just find other guilds.

    Beyond that, the only way to minimize PuG failures is to have a decent amount of communication before starting a key to verify that the goals of each member is in alignment. Are we all ok with finishing the dungeon if we don't make it in time? What's an acceptable amount of time over the key that we're willing to spend? Does everyone know the dungeon and the various mechanics? Is there a specific route that we're doing (if necessary)? Are there some special strategies we're doing that isn't widely known (i.e. MDI-like strats)? Is everyone well prepared by having the right gear, right talents, and consumables ready?

    Sure we assume that if we're doing X key that folks would have all the above checked but you would be surprised.
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  8. #968
    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    The original system is M+ should be done with fellow players that you know as either guildmates or online friends. This way there exist already a social contract that if they become douchy, you can just stop playing with them. And for those with limited friends or a dead guild (because content lull), then make more online friends or join a new guild.

    There was a previous poster who didn't want to join new guilds because past history has had bad experiences. But even with those bad experiences they still continue to play WoW so just find other guilds.

    Beyond that, the only way to minimize PuG failures is to have a decent amount of communication before starting a key to verify that the goals of each member is in alignment. Are we all ok with finishing the dungeon if we don't make it in time? What's an acceptable amount of time over the key that we're willing to spend? Does everyone know the dungeon and the various mechanics? Is there a specific route that we're doing (if necessary)? Are there some special strategies we're doing that isn't widely known (i.e. MDI-like strats)? Is everyone well prepared by having the right gear, right talents, and consumables ready?

    Sure we assume that if we're doing X key that folks would have all the above checked but you would be surprised.
    the only way to minimize chances of pugs failing is reintrocude back "nerf - over time" mechanics - like corruprions / tf

    why ? because as time passes more and more "good players" go on breaks and you are left with "bads" in 90% of groups below certain treshhold.

    you can deny it as you want but TF/corruptions were able to offset it by allowign people to brute force mechanics.

    you cannot do it now - especially not on tyranical weeks - thats why players have such bad experience in pugs - and when people who push for toxic io score see any sign of untimed key - they imidiately leave - like for example tank in HoA 16 i joined earlier - he miscalculated % , had bad pride pull - group wiped - tank instant left / broke his own key because he was pushing score.

    you want people staying in groups ? remove toxic io and bring back nerf mechanics. then people will stay .

  9. #969
    Epic! Alroxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    the only way to minimize chances of pugs failing is reintrocude back "nerf - over time" mechanics - like corruprions / tf

    why ? because as time passes more and more "good players" go on breaks and you are left with "bads" in 90% of groups below certain treshhold.

    you can deny it as you want but TF/corruptions were able to offset it by allowign people to brute force mechanics.

    you cannot do it now - especially not on tyranical weeks - thats why players have such bad experience in pugs - and when people who push for toxic io score see any sign of untimed key - they imidiately leave - like for example tank in HoA 16 i joined earlier - he miscalculated % , had bad pride pull - group wiped - tank instant left / broke his own key because he was pushing score.

    you want people staying in groups ? remove toxic io and bring back nerf mechanics. then people will stay .

    Wait didn't Ion just cover this that it's a matter of "get gud"? Isn't that basically what you're saying? These players are "bad" because they need more gear (or nerfs to dungeons) so they can do the same content that others can do without the extra gear.

    Alternatively, maybe players should learn to accept their limitations and "move on" instead of trying to do content that they can't do. Also it's important to realize that there is no shame in that. Not everyone is a Limit or Method Mythic raider and that's 100% OK.
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  10. #970
    Please wait Temp name's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aphrel View Post
    The point of being able to invite a new 5th player would be to just be able to finish your weekly run (this is the most common case). This is the big + in the comparison.
    But now you also risk getting kicked on the last boss to invite friends/family in for an easy last boss for weekly completion, which is an even bigger -
    Or someone wanting to run with their friend who just came online? Oops you got kicked so they could join.


    The reason i excluded achieves and scores was specifically to deter boosting. As many ppl buy boost not for the weekly chest but for the score.
    No, it's primarily weeklies/15s for loot. very small amount of KSM boosts, and even fewer higher keys. They just stand out more

    The 2nd line about a person being able to leave and grief is a plus/minus 0 because that is already possible under the current system.
    Yeah.. But if you want to change something, at least try to improve it

    Overall im counting one +.
    I'm not

    You need to realize, im not advocating for a perfect system. Im making a comparision between two systems.
    Of which there is no difference to most people, but would make boosts way easier, and potentially more malicious

    Count all the pros and the negatives. Not just the negatives. We arent comparing to some perfectworld scenario, we are comparing to the current scenario.
    I did, you should too.
    Last edited by Temp name; 2021-05-05 at 03:18 PM.

  11. #971
    Quote Originally Posted by Tziva View Post
    Sincere questions: How many keys a day do you PuG? In what key range? What do your runs usually go like?

    Most weeks I do what I would consider "a lot" of keys (my top week I had over 50 in one week, but most weeks I do about 20 across a few characters), and I see leavers a few times a month. Sometimes on shitty weeks I might see as many as a couple a week but every single day seems very very abnormal.
    Depends on period. I gave few months of break. Before that, I'd run keys around 10. I'd say 10-15 runs a week. So that's ~2 runs a day. "Every single day" might be an exeggaration, but I do see toxicity (including leavers) quite often. It's not rare for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tziva View Post
    Either you do an insane number of keys a day, or you might want to evaluate if you're doing is upsetting people since you're the common variable in these runs. I'm not accusing you of being bad or rude, but I also know people who don't take the time for the introspection to realise they are being excessively hostile and that is turning people away.
    I stopped doing my own keys, as I said due to toxicity and leavers. I join others now. The leavers do not ruin my key, therefore, they do not upset me that much. Overwhelming majority of the time, I am not involved in the argument taking place within group. I do not leave and I do not interfere or talk (that much). It certainly isn't me annoying people.

  12. #972
    Pandaren Monk Sugarcube's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuntantee View Post
    Depends on period. I gave few months of break. Before that, I'd run keys around 10. I'd say 10-15 runs a week. So that's ~2 runs a day. "Every single day" might be an exeggaration, but I do see toxicity (including leavers) quite often. It's not rare for me.
    then i would say you either making poor choices or you are the one causing it...

  13. #973
    Quote Originally Posted by Sugarcube View Post
    then i would say you either making poor choices or you are the one causing it...
    How can I make a conscious decision, when I am using group finder who finds random people in game? Do you even think before writing?

  14. #974
    Quote Originally Posted by Tziva View Post
    Sincere questions: How many keys a day do you PuG? In what key range? What do your runs usually go like?

    Most weeks I do what I would consider "a lot" of keys (my top week I had over 50 in one week, but most weeks I do about 20 across a few characters), and I see leavers a few times a month. Sometimes on shitty weeks I might see as many as a couple a week but every single day seems very very abnormal.

    Either you do an insane number of keys a day, or you might want to evaluate if you're doing is upsetting people since you're the common variable in these runs. I'm not accusing you of being bad or rude, but I also know people who don't take the time for the introspection to realise they are being excessively hostile and that is turning people away.
    Likely comes down to what range they are doing. A 14-15 stacked with 1400-1600 ui goes smooth. The same run or even runs below that with 1200ish players usually implodes or worse a player with 40+ 10 runs completed but only one or two 15.

  15. #975
    Pandaren Monk Sugarcube's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuntantee View Post
    How can I make a conscious decision, when I am using group finder who finds random people in game? Do you even think before writing?
    lol... so you just join a group and hope for the best when the key starts? you don't talk to anyone at all before it starts? you don't check their profile on rio? you don't check their characters equipment/talents? you don't make sure everyone's goal for the group matches?

    poor choices if that's the case...

  16. #976
    Quote Originally Posted by Sugarcube View Post
    lol... so you just join a group and hope for the best when the key starts? you don't talk to anyone at all before it starts? you don't check their profile on rio? you don't check their characters equipment/talents? you don't make sure everyone's goal for the group matches?

    poor choices if that's the case...
    Dude...

    I am doing +10

    >>>>>> +10 <<<<<<<

    Furthermore, toxicity is not only in the form of leaving. I did not find any correlation between RIO scores and being a dick. There is for sure no correlation between people's talent/gear and toxicity levels.

    Now, go try hard +3

  17. #977
    Pandaren Monk Sugarcube's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuntantee View Post
    There is for sure no correlation between people's talent/gear and toxicity levels.
    yes there is... i've watched guardian druids/prot paladins try to tank with int weapons and then flame dps when they can't hold aggro...

    and if you're doing 10s... the reason for most toxicity around that level is that it's when things start getting harder if the tank is clueless... which in most cases happen when you play with tanks that haven't done 10s or higher before...
    Last edited by Sugarcube; 2021-05-05 at 10:57 PM.

  18. #978
    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    It's really quite odd too. For some reason, anecdotally it seems that Latin American servers (Ragnaros and Quel'thalas specifically) have a higher chance of bailing when the run doesn't look like it will be made in time.

    Not sure why but players from those realms don't communicate and just check out when things go moderately wrong (i.e. a serious wipe or more).
    I haven't experienced this in m+. I did one yesterday where it was 4 of rag. Diff guilds but they all spoke English, asked if I had certain consumables for a skip, told me when they were going to do it and reminded me at the time. There was a little bit of banter but one of the guys was pretty shit. By the third of 5 bosses it was clear we wouldn't time and someone fucked up the skip. No one left. We completed the dungeon.

    Raiding? OMG I have seen some toxic trash. Usually funny though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  19. #979
    People are trying to help https://wowrep.io/ gain some traction. It lets you review players. Short of that, the next best thing would be adding a karma system like the one from Garys Mod if anyone has seen that.

    Start with 1000 karma, it can max out at 1500 if you do well and once it goes down to 800 or lower you do less damage. For M+ it could be similar, but have no effect when the karma goes below 1000 other than showing people that they have been downvoted a hell of a lot. If they manage to get into groups, that have to claw their way back to higher karma. It's literally 10~ lines of code max.

  20. #980
    Quote Originally Posted by Temp name View Post
    But now you also risk getting kicked on the last boss to invite friends/family in for an easy last boss for weekly completion, which is an even bigger -
    Or someone wanting to run with their friend who just came online? Oops you got kicked so they could join.


    No, it's primarily weeklies/15s for loot. very small amount of KSM boosts, and even fewer higher keys. They just stand out more

    Yeah.. But if you want to change something, at least try to improve it

    I'm not

    Of which there is no difference to most people, but would make boosts way easier, and potentially more malicious

    I did, you should too.
    If a group malicously kick someone, that person can hold the dung hostage. and that then becomes a lose/lose (wich is what we already have with todays system, in other words, a plus minus 0).

    The improvement is in the first line. The most common case has been improved. Thats the change. If i had a feasable solution for griefing id give ut, but nothing practical comes to mind.

    If you got a better idea lets hear it.
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