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  1. #1021
    Mechagnome Cloudmaker's Avatar
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    What if people play terribly and the key is impossible to finish. Hero and pride is wasted on a tyrannical boss. What else is there to do, sit there and wipe? Repairs are also expensive especially when you are not in the guild that has repairs enabled, which would be totally irrational to cover such costs. Flasks, food, oils are not cheap too. Then key is depleted and it sits on your raider rio then you are being declined further from groups because of it. How is that look? Selfish? No! There is nothing selfish in taking care of yourself. Some people jump into high keys while their gear indicates they shouldn’t even be doing 10’s. Not to mention being instantly kicked for not playing meta spec by people who are not even willing to take an effort to check what spec I am playing or how many dungeons I finished in time before doing so. Not to mention being kicked by a person who doesn’t even have score, because “oh well you won’t be able to boost me enough!”. I did all my keys with the pugs, I had no luxury to be carried. I had to finish all 14s in time in order to get invited to 15 and get my key upgraded. Of course I will leave if someone is not putting in the weight or worse is being toxic. It’s not the game issue. People treat each other instrumentally and no mater what will be invented they will find a way to exploit it, which is why all you can do is to protect yourself and it’s your very right to do. There is nothing wrong with that. Also wasting people’s time for leaving? Are you serious? I also waste time for leaving and having this dungeon unfinished.

    Though, from ethical point of view deep in my heart I feel sorry for doing so. I do what I must.
    Last edited by Cloudmaker; 2021-05-07 at 07:52 AM.

  2. #1022
    Quote Originally Posted by Clbull View Post
    Riot Games and the greater League of Legends community wouldn't stand for somebody leaving a ranked match because another player was underperforming. Why should the WoW community stand for that crap?
    Lol...
    First of all - groups are auto-matched
    Second - it's ranked and you loose rating for losses, so you can't compare it
    League Community would not stand for the leaver but the community will shit on the underperforming guy in /All chat and spam surrender 15 if someone has 0 kills and 2 deaths while semi-afking.

    Don't make shit up.

  3. #1023
    Quote Originally Posted by thunderdragon2 View Post
    i can assure you nothing untoward has been said in chat most of those were chill runs and i say to people when they join "the goal is to finish timing is bonus" and yes i am using rio it's just not helping much in the 10-14 section where i have been pugging yesterday and today, people still leave because it wont be in time nothing i can fix, i take people that have a io score that's capable for for that key, people abandoning 11s and 12s due to 1 wipe on the 2nd boss of necrotic wake for example.

    what more can i do? i'm using the addon i believe i'm using it correctly, im stating my intentions for the key not only in the title but also in chat be4 we start and still people leave. what else can i do to stop people form leaving?
    You say you are picking ppl with io capable of 11s and 12s. Can you expand on your process?

    If im on an alt running 12s, here's my selection process. Make sure they have a score thatw equal to at least all 10s run. So that would be 800+. Whether that's from some 8 or 9s in a few dungeons made up by 11s and 12s in another dungeons or at least all 8 actually timed on +10. Then if im doing a 12, i make sure they've done 11 in that dungeon. If it all looks good ill prob just invite them, assuming they have a decent ilvl. At this point in the xpac, thats usually ~205-210 but some exceptions apply. If I really want, ill look at their rio page. Check the drop down list on that dungeon and see if they have a bunch of recent fails. Also, ill see that theu have 5-10 timed keys in the 10-14 range to make sure they have experience with pride.
    Last edited by ellieg; 2021-05-07 at 11:05 AM.

  4. #1024
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    You say you are picking ppl with io capable of 11s and 12s. Can you expand on your process?

    If im on an alt running 12s, here's my selection process. Make sure they have a score that equal to at least all 10s run. So that would be 800+. Whether that's from some 8 or 9s in a few dungeons made up by 11s and 12s in another dungeons or at least all 8 actually timed on +10. Then if im doing a 12, i make sure they've done 11 in that dungeon. If it all looks good ill prob just invite them, assuming they have a decent ilvl. At this point in the xpac, that's usually ~205-210 but some exceptions apply. If I really want, ill look at their rio page. Check the drop down list on that dungeon and see if they have a bunch of recent fails. Also, ill see that they have 5-10 timed keys in the 10-14 range to make sure they have experience with pride.
    i don't just look at their over all i.o score i take into account dungeon score also on my paladin i was doing 10s and 11 so i would make sure that the tank has atleast delt with pride be4 i even consider inviting for a 10 i'm looking at minimum of 750 over all io which means they need to have all 9s in time + some 10s or higher.

    the reason i dis like rio is because its turned the players in this game into rio hunters and go go go maniacs which only care about beating the clock no mater what the title of the advertised run says.

    worst part of it is i have seen many people in the 10-15 section that should be there due to their rio but don't use things such as soothe slows stuns and interrupts, its like they dont' even know what it is

  5. #1025
    Pandaren Monk Sugarcube's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thunderdragon2 View Post
    worst part of it is i have seen many people in the 10-15 section that should be there due to their rio but don't use things such as soothe slows stuns and interrupts, its like they dont' even know what it is
    because people don't leave when they're in their groups... they get carried...

  6. #1026
    Quote Originally Posted by thunderdragon2 View Post
    the reason i dis like rio is because its turned the players in this game into rio hunters and go go go maniacs which only care about beating the clock no mater what the title of the advertised run says.
    Title matters. I have never seen someone leaving a "weekly vault - finish" run just because it was going to be 5mins over. I have certainly seen people leave "push" keys after it's clear it's deplete, but quite often we would finish a key if deplete happens only by 1min and it only comes clear when you are near the last boss.

  7. #1027
    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudmaker View Post
    What if people play terribly and the key is impossible to finish. Hero and pride is wasted on a tyrannical boss. What else is there to do, sit there and wipe? Repairs are also expensive especially when you are not in the guild that has repairs enabled, which would be totally irrational to cover such costs. Flasks, food, oils are not cheap too. Then key is depleted and it sits on your raider rio then you are being declined further from groups because of it. How is that look? Selfish? No! There is nothing selfish in taking care of yourself. Some people jump into high keys while their gear indicates they shouldn’t even be doing 10’s. Not to mention being instantly kicked for not playing meta spec by people who are not even willing to take an effort to check what spec I am playing or how many dungeons I finished in time before doing so. Not to mention being kicked by a person who doesn’t even have score, because “oh well you won’t be able to boost me enough!”. I did all my keys with the pugs, I had no luxury to be carried. I had to finish all 14s in time in order to get invited to 15 and get my key upgraded. Of course I will leave if someone is not putting in the weight or worse is being toxic. It’s not the game issue. People treat each other instrumentally and no mater what will be invented they will find a way to exploit it, which is why all you can do is to protect yourself and it’s your very right to do. There is nothing wrong with that. Also wasting people’s time for leaving? Are you serious? I also waste time for leaving and having this dungeon unfinished.

    Though, from ethical point of view deep in my heart I feel sorry for doing so. I do what I must.
    tyrnical weeks are just cancer in their current form - when people have no corruptions/TF that can carry them to victory

    thats why you see much more leavers then - because like you said - if you wipe on boss wasting pride+ bl ? its dead key anyway .

  8. #1028
    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    Title matters. I have never seen someone leaving a "weekly vault - finish" run just because it was going to be 5mins over. I have certainly seen people leave "push" keys after it's clear it's deplete, but quite often we would finish a key if deplete happens only by 1min and it only comes clear when you are near the last boss.
    i have had a few do that to me had a tank do that in a theatre 11 that i put up for weekly vault as he thought we could time it and when it looked untameable he bailed
    Last edited by thunderdragon2; 2021-05-07 at 12:17 PM.

  9. #1029
    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    Title matters. I have never seen someone leaving a "weekly vault - finish" run just because it was going to be 5mins over. I have certainly seen people leave "push" keys after it's clear it's deplete, but quite often we would finish a key if deplete happens only by 1min and it only comes clear when you are near the last boss.
    true - but then you dont see "weekly-vault " keys on like 16-18 . and if people do it for 14s they also invite 1500+ io people anyway.

    there is no reason whatsoever to do anything higher then 14s for weekly - so if people dont want to tank their key to 14 and try to do it on 16s ? thats on them .

    i for example tend to completly ignore anything higher then 14s on tyranical - its usually compelte waste of time.

  10. #1030
    Quote Originally Posted by Feral Druid ist Op View Post
    i belive we talked about SD and useing spears on the 2rd easiest boss is casual as expected form a low io
    Almost everyone uses spears on Stitchflesh.. wtf

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    Leaving is not toxic. Healer left because of toxic environment probably. If there are people shit talking each other or acting with malicious intent, that's toxic.
    Again, I don't see these toxic guys everyone is talking about, especially not every day.
    Leaving mid-run with little actual reason is definitely toxic.

    It just seems like the only ones who don't think it's toxic are frequent leavers, and well, no shit you wouldn't acknowledge it's toxic because you'd have to acknowledge you are toxic.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by GnomeEU View Post

    You're not alone in the world.
    You waste my time if you leave.

    Most of those leavers are little spoiled children that don't think about anyone but themselves.
    This.
    "I leave c-cus my time is p-preshus.. okay???"

    Yeah great, but it's not more precious than 4 other people's time that you just wasted.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    lol, so people who are literally being toxic in the dungeon are victims now because a guy who leaves because of their toxic behaviour is hurting them?
    You were hurt because two random people were having a small argument that they resolved peacefully?

    Are you okay?

  11. #1031
    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    Leaving mid-run with little actual reason is definitely toxic.

    It just seems like the only ones who don't think it's toxic are frequent leavers, and well, no shit you wouldn't acknowledge it's toxic because you'd have to acknowledge you are toxic.
    ?
    lol, I have not left any key this expansion on any other reason other than mutual agreement that the key is dead, so it's not "only frequent" leavers who think that leaving is not toxic.
    I never talked about leaving without a good reason, because you know, people don't leave if there is no reason.

    Reason can be:
    Deplete in a push group
    Someone being toxic in the group
    IRL urgencies
    Time required to finish dungeon is not reasonable - looking at those 50mins keys. Unless it has been advertised as completion key.
    Someone obviously getting a carry without prior notification (quite often someone selling a boost without party knowing about it or trying to sneaking boost a guildie)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post

    You were hurt because two random people were having a small argument that they resolved peacefully?

    Are you okay?
    What? Being toxic is not toxic, but not wanting to have anything to do with it is? lol.
    Did someone leaving hurt you? Are you ok?
    Last edited by erifwodahs; 2021-05-07 at 02:18 PM.

  12. #1032
    Epic! Alroxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudmaker View Post
    Then key is depleted and it sits on your raider rio then you are being declined further from groups because of it.
    Eh no, that's not quite how r.io works. Blizzard's API records the highest key you've finished (whether in time or not) while r.io just computes a score based off that. A high key done not in time can still increase the score if it was finished close enough to the timer. Example: a +15 done just outside of the timer (by like under 10s over) is still worth like ~140 points. But if you had a +14 key done under +2 timer, it's still higher than the +15.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudmaker View Post
    Not to mention being instantly kicked for not playing meta spec by people who are not even willing to take an effort to check what spec I am playing or how many dungeons I finished in time before doing so.
    Meta always exists and while it doesn't really matter unless you're pushing high keys (i.e. above +20), the alternative is simply make your own groups. You can't force people to take you if they want to adhere to silly meta for content that doesn't require it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudmaker View Post
    Of course I will leave if someone is not putting in the weight or worse is being toxic. It’s not the game issue. People treat each other instrumentally and no mater what will be invented they will find a way to exploit it, which is why all you can do is to protect yourself and it’s your very right to do. There is nothing wrong with that.
    Eh... Depends on the situation. If you announced that prior to starting the key, then yeah it's fine the group has accepted that as the goals of the run. But doing that in every run without saying that ahead of time? Kind of a douche move. Leaving after joining a group that specifically wants to complete regardless of time: then that's toxic.

    As I've said before, the goals of each player should match the goals of the group for a smoother run. If there are differences, then they should be addressed prior to the run. This way if a group isn't 100% sure that they can finish in time and you come across a player like Cloudmaker, maybe they find a replacement who is more flexible. Nothing run with that and lowers bad experiences for both sides.
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  13. #1033
    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    lol, I have not left any key this expansion on any other reason other than mutual agreement that the key is dead, so it's not "only frequent" leavers who think that leaving is toxic.
    I never talked about leaving without a good reason, because you know, people don't leave if there is no reason.

    Reason can be:
    Deplete in a push group
    Someone being toxic in the group
    IRL urgencies
    Time required to finish dungeon is not reasonable - looking at those 50mins keys. Unless it has been advertised as completion key.
    Someone obviously getting a carry without prior notification (quite often someone selling a boost without party knowing about it or trying to sneaking boost a guildie)

    - - - Updated - - -



    What? Being toxic is not toxic, but not wanting to have anything to do with it is? lol.
    Did someone leaving hurt you? Are you ok?
    You just seem to be squirming. "N-no I'm not toxic. YOU are toxic! I had a good reason to waste the time of 4 people and that was that two of them had an argument that they peacefully resolved that hurt my feelings!"

  14. #1034
    Mechagnome Cloudmaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    Leaving after joining a group that specifically wants to complete regardless of time: then that's toxic.
    I agree. If the key is possible to finish then for sure.

  15. #1035
    So much talking about toxicity but either you never tried mobas/shooters or idk.

    One of the main reasons i stick to wow is the chilled, non-toxic environment. Although i like mobas i think its unplayable solo. I cant recall many lost games without extreme flameing sometimes starting at the draft. And if you consider MMR is based on like 48-52% win rate that is too much toxic shit to handle for me.

  16. #1036
    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    A high key done not in time can still increase the score if it was finished close enough to the timer. Example: a +15 done just outside of the timer (by like under 10s over) is still worth like ~140 points. But if you had a +14 key done under +2 timer, it's still higher than the +15.
    A timed key will always be more points than an untimed key one level higher no matter how close.

  17. #1037
    Epic! Alroxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twdft View Post
    A timed key will always be more points than an untimed key one level higher no matter how close.
    Yes but the point is that a untimed yet completed key does not provide a negative or harmful score. Even if you couldn't time a +15 (or a +18), just finishing close to the timer still nets you some amount of points that generally good.

    So let's step back a bit, instead of comparing a +14 timed versus a +15 non-timed but within 10s of timer. How about a +12 timed versus a +17 non-timed but within 1 minute of timer. You would still get an increase of at least ~30 points to the overall r.io score.

    Remember the context is:

    Then key is depleted and it sits on your raider rio then you are being declined further from groups because of it.
    I suppose for the percentage of players that use r.io to the point where they go to the website to "vet" each potential applicate by looking up dungeon history, but that seems to be the exception and not the norm.
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  18. #1038
    Anyway, penalizing people who do this shit won't work out. There's too many exceptions and asterisks to add to this kind of a system to make sure it doesn't go awry.

    Instead, add tools for other people to complete the run if somebody leaves for no/shit reasons. Like have the timer freeze until the next mob or pack of mobs is engaged as soon as a party member leaves or DCs and allow another player to enter the dungeon in that time. That kind of solution probably has a lot of the same types of baggage that would need to be sorted out, but it seems more viable.

  19. #1039
    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    You just seem to be squirming. "N-no I'm not toxic. YOU are toxic! I had a good reason to waste the time of 4 people and that was that two of them had an argument that they peacefully resolved that hurt my feelings!"
    Well, I gave you my arguments, you had nothing to reply with besides attacking me, not my arguments. Don't waste my time, if you catch the irony, tho I doubt.

  20. #1040
    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    Well, I gave you my arguments, you had nothing to reply with besides attacking me, not my arguments. Don't waste my time, if you catch the irony, tho I doubt.
    Out of your arguments, the IRL emergency is the only valid reason to waste 4 other people's time and their key.

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