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  1. #1101
    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodyleech View Post
    Doesn't matter if something else got messed up. It's the paladin's job to deal with this mechanic if it happens, no matter what else happened, at all. There is no "but" at all in this case.
    In Pugs you always have to expect that some mechanics are not done, so you always have to play around it, if you want or not, it's a simple fact.
    So first person messing up was ok, but second is "bad".
    There is certainly a "but" here.
    Someone took extra puddles/puddle you spawned on the broker boss and you exploded on party/died? Is that your fault?
    Someone pulls a pack without control of inspired mob - is that healer/tank fault now?
    Someone butt pulls pack and messes up pride timings, is that now a tank fault.
    Some asshat drops an orb on in some stupid location on 3rd boss in SoA, is that a tanks fault if he can't soak all of the balls up now?

    You can deal with other failures, but not being able to deal with it doesn't make you any worse than the person who messed it up. Most of the time it's damage control anyway, so if you can't deal with it, it's not your balme.

  2. #1102
    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    So first person messing up was ok, but second is "bad".
    There is certainly a "but" here.
    Someone took extra puddles/puddle you spawned on the broker boss and you exploded on party/died? Is that your fault?
    Someone pulls a pack without control of inspired mob - is that healer/tank fault now?
    Someone butt pulls pack and messes up pride timings, is that now a tank fault.
    Some asshat drops an orb on in some stupid location on 3rd boss in SoA, is that a tanks fault if he can't soak all of the balls up now?

    You can deal with other failures, but not being able to deal with it doesn't make you any worse than the person who messed it up. Most of the time it's damage control anyway, so if you can't deal with it, it's not your balme.
    Thing is, it's super easy to deal with fixate.
    Kinda tougher to deal with no portal on the broker boss (tho some could immune it).
    And for the record, both players were bad - or rather, both players made mistakes. I'd never call a player in a low key "bad" - chaces are, they are still learning the encounter (and sometimes even the game), if they are doing a low key. You could always try to invite 1.5rio + to your 8 key if you want to avoid the problem

  3. #1103
    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    So first person messing up was ok, but second is "bad".
    There is certainly a "but" here.
    Someone took extra puddles/puddle you spawned on the broker boss and you exploded on party/died? Is that your fault?
    Someone pulls a pack without control of inspired mob - is that healer/tank fault now?
    Someone butt pulls pack and messes up pride timings, is that now a tank fault.
    Some asshat drops an orb on in some stupid location on 3rd boss in SoA, is that a tanks fault if he can't soak all of the balls up now?

    You can deal with other failures, but not being able to deal with it doesn't make you any worse than the person who messed it up. Most of the time it's damage control anyway, so if you can't deal with it, it's not your balme.
    No, the first person messing up was not ok, but not using your toolkit is bad. Don't try to twist my words.

    1. A mechanical failure by a single person leading to a wipe, what could you've done to not cause the wipe? Nothing.
    2. Depends on the situation. Are cd's used, adds kited away from inspired? Whole parties failure, everyone got some cc to care for the inspired. Potentially not using cds, too. Group as a whole could have saved this.
    3. The tank could use another route, skipping stuff he would've pulled otherwise. Tank could save this.
    4. Other people can and should soak them too if needed. Immunities or dmg reduce and go for it. Group could have saved this.

    It's all about the group. If someone does bad things, another one has to fix it. If this one doesn't use his classes mechanics, it's his followup failure. If you can't deal with stuff, obviously you can't be at fault.
    Last edited by Bloodyleech; 2021-05-11 at 10:12 AM.

  4. #1104
    As for the solution for M+ leavers...
    I think I'd be fine with a simple "leave" counter, with no game repercussions what so ever (best not absolute numbers, but rather percentage-based). Also, group leader should have an option to disband the run with a majority vote (and no consequences, obviously). Players could deal with those numbers however they see fit.

  5. #1105
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    As for the solution for M+ leavers...
    I think I'd be fine with a simple "leave" counter, with no game repercussions what so ever (best not absolute numbers, but rather percentage-based). Also, group leader should have an option to disband the run with a majority vote (and no consequences, obviously). Players could deal with those numbers however they see fit.
    This is actually a little solution that coooould work, I like.
    People who leave regulary have a high leaver%, people who just leave out of RL reasons or something usually do not have a high leaver%. Could see it working.

  6. #1106
    Please wait Temp name's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by callipygoustp View Post
    Hah, blaming the healer for the shitty tank mechanics. I've met your type in groups before. Good times.

    - - - Updated - - -


    Yeah, that's pretty fucking horrible.

    {s}
    But if the healer had been better......

    Or if the healer had communicated better...

    Certainly wasn't the tank's fault
    {/s}
    Tank was shit, I didn't deny that. But instead of leaving he could've, you know.. Stayed and finished the dungeon? That pull is doable on a +14 tyran week.

  7. #1107
    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodyleech View Post
    This is actually a little solution that coooould work, I like.
    People who leave regulary have a high leaver%, people who just leave out of RL reasons or something usually do not have a high leaver%. Could see it working.
    and how you decided if a person is a "leaver" ? because what people would start to do is just to fake dc and log in to another alt.

    dont know how you but i have 4 max level alts capable of runing +15 - and then what when i fake dc ? if "you" leave first its you who would get "counted"

  8. #1108
    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodyleech View Post
    No, the first person messing up was not ok, but not using your toolkit is bad. Don't try to twist my words.

    1. A mechanical failure by a single person leading to a wipe, what could you've done to not cause the wipe? Nothing.
    2. Depends on the situation. Are cd's used, adds kited away from inspired? Whole parties failure, everyone got some cc to care for the inspired. Potentially not using cds, too. Group as a whole could have saved this.
    3. The tank could use another route, skipping stuff he would've pulled otherwise. Tank could save this.
    4. Other people can and should soak them too if needed. Immunities or dmg reduce and go for it. Group could have saved this.

    It's all about the group. If someone does bad things, another one has to fix it. If this one doesn't use his classes mechanics, it's his followup failure.

    1. Not to soak the puddles when you don't have to so the person who gets bomb can get to it in time.
    2. Not whole party failure. Person who does the pull. Could be tank with bad route, could be dps who likes pull without looking at the route. Group might have been able to save that but failure comes from initial fuck up. Damage control is not always possible.
    3. So tank COULD have saved this, but someone else messed up. And it's situational if you even can.
    4. So you rely on someone covering your ass and if not - they fail? I would love to see that in a high key.

    Can they? Yes. But OP put ALL THE BLAME with "no buts" on paladin, when in reality he fucked up, but only because someone fucked up first.
    Damage control is a trait of a good group, especially where for some reason you get some stupid rng and things don't go according to plan, but expecting others to make up for your mistakes is not a good mentality.

  9. #1109
    Would they be able to add a string that was a counter for every time a character has left a M+ before it has finished. Then be able to track this counter through their API with raider.io or the new rating system in 9.1.

    Character - Tøxíc
    Rating - 750
    Abandoned - 40

    Then when you're searching in LFG you can see how many mythic plus instances the player has left before the dungeon was finished, based on this you have a choice to either invite them or not.

    Then have the counter reset on Seasons for Mythic plus, I know this isn't really punishing them for leaving but this might give the community a choice to invite them or not. If you decided to invite someone who's left around 30-40 times I think that's on the player to accept that risk that this guy might leave.
    Last edited by fooxy; 2021-05-11 at 11:04 AM.

  10. #1110
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    and how you decided if a person is a "leaver" ? because what people would start to do is just to fake dc and log in to another alt.

    dont know how you but i have 4 max level alts capable of runing +15 - and then what when i fake dc ? if "you" leave first its you who would get "counted"
    Everyone who leaves first gets a point into the leaver%. If you are not regulary leaving, who the F will care? If you are a regulary leaver, your will leaver% will be high enough that people can see it.
    Same ruleset with DCs - if you regulary DC in a run so that it has to be ended, your leaver% goes up, if a Dc once in what.. 200? runs happens, who the F will care about your very low leaver%?
    If there is a player who's just afking or whatever, group votes to end the run. Not sure how this would be implemented then - it's not a perfect system, but better than all the systems anyone in this thread posted.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    1. Not to soak the puddles when you don't have to so the person who gets bomb can get to it in time.
    2. Not whole party failure. Person who does the pull. Could be tank with bad route, could be dps who likes pull without looking at the route. Group might have been able to save that but failure comes from initial fuck up. Damage control is not always possible.
    3. So tank COULD have saved this, but someone else messed up. And it's situational if you even can.
    4. So you rely on someone covering your ass and if not - they fail? I would love to see that in a high key.

    Can they? Yes. But OP put ALL THE BLAME with "no buts" on paladin, when in reality he fucked up, but only because someone fucked up first.
    Damage control is a trait of a good group, especially where for some reason you get some stupid rng and things don't go according to plan, but expecting others to make up for your mistakes is not a good mentality.
    I am NOT talking about keys in the higher range (16+). In those keys it's all about timing - if you fail a simple mechanic, you are completely at fault.

    1. Doesn't change anything about what I said. Can't fix this, obviously this persons fault.
    2. What keylevels are we talking about here? Up to the 15s range something like this can be fixed by any competent group that utilizes their abilities. If the group fails the utilize their kit, it's the whole groups followup fault.
    3. Yeah, that's why I used "could". The failure in itself was made by the person who pulled. Said nothing different, just that it could be saved.
    4. No, I expect people to do mechanics. Doesn't matter who failed before. Group has to save it. If the group is not able to save it, it's the one players fault. If the group could have saved it, it's the groups failure for not dealing with it.

    The initial fk ups are a thing, ofc - but the group can (almost) always save it if they play well and use their kit. Oneshot mechanics/trash that is really hard to deal with if pulled on accident are a complete other thing (or pulled right before low life enemies are killed -> bolstering).

    We do not know who made the first mistake, it doesn't even matter. If the group can save it AND it doesn't risk the key, it.. happened. Just move on then. In the end it's about completing the run in time, generally it's not important if you have 2 minutes or 8 minutes left on the timer. In this case it's both players fault. One should have used the gripple on boss, the other should have used immunities. And as I'm a vivid "learn your class before going into dungeons" supporter, the pala who's not using his freakin basic toolkit, is the one who fked up more than the other player for me.
    Last edited by Bloodyleech; 2021-05-11 at 10:47 AM.

  11. #1111
    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    Alternatively, why don't you just ask the group (prior to starting the key) if they are ok with finishing the key regardless of making the timer? Sure it would be a nice thing to be under timer but the goal is completion.

    This way players can opt out prior to a key being downgraded. Some players don't necessarily want to spend more than the X allotted time per dungeon. Your time is valuable to you and so is their time valuable to them.
    i tried this people still leave after the 2nd wipe in the instance

  12. #1112
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    and how you decided if a person is a "leaver" ? because what people would start to do is just to fake dc and log in to another alt.

    dont know how you but i have 4 max level alts capable of runing +15 - and then what when i fake dc ? if "you" leave first its you who would get "counted"
    No reason to overthink it. If your character leaves the instance, for any reason at all - be it a DC - you are flagged as a leaver. Yes, you could sometimes get flagged for a genuine DC, but since it's percentage based, I doubt it would affet your overall score that much. Also, I guess you could work on a system that unflags you if you log back etc. etc.

    EDIT: Also, that's why you need a majority vote system to be able to end the run prematurely with no consequences. If somebody logs out and isn't coming back, and you know you can't finish the run, you just vote to end it and part your ways peacefully.
    Last edited by Rageonit; 2021-05-11 at 10:58 AM.

  13. #1113
    Warchief Sugarcube's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    If your character leaves the instance, for any reason at all - be it a DC - you are flagged as a leaver.
    lol... that's a fucking horrible system... so i can't leave the instance to change gear or talents or spec if i realize i've got the wrong ones?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodyleech View Post
    This is actually a little solution that coooould work, I like.
    People who leave regulary have a high leaver%, people who just leave out of RL reasons or something usually do not have a high leaver%. Could see it working.
    if they're gonna implement leaver stats they better implement penalties for underperforming people... they are the ones causing the leavers lol...
    Last edited by Sugarcube; 2021-05-11 at 11:46 AM.

  14. #1114
    Quote Originally Posted by Sugarcube View Post
    lol... that's a fucking horrible system... so i can't leave the instance to change gear or talents or spec if i realize i've got the wrong ones?
    I tried to be concise, but I will try to be even more if my sentences are too long.
    So again: those are only small details that would need ironing out. I have already said that you can implement a system that unflags you if you log back. So many ways to do it, honestly: the flag could have a form of a hidden debuff that disappears after a certain time if you come back to the instance/finish the run etc. etc.
    Instead of nitpicking trivial stuff, I encourage you to try to think about the bigger picture @Sugarcube.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sugarcube View Post
    if they're gonna implement leaver stats they better implement penalties for underperforming people... they are the ones causing the leavers lol...
    So only a simple stat for leavers, but underperformers need to be punished? Doesn't sound like a fair solution.
    Besides, if you think it's mostly underperformers causing the problem, you shouldn't have too many troubles finding like-minded players that will happily invite you in spite of your high leaver%.
    Last edited by Rageonit; 2021-05-11 at 12:16 PM.

  15. #1115
    Warchief Sugarcube's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    Instead of nitpicking trivial stuff, I encourage you to try to think about the bigger picture @Sugarcube.
    if someone can find a flaw in your suggestion instantly when reading your post... then it's a pretty bad idea to implement...

  16. #1116
    Quote Originally Posted by Sugarcube View Post
    if someone can find a flaw in your suggestion instantly when reading your post... then it's a pretty bad idea to implement...
    Well that's mostly because they cba to finish reading the paragraph (which was relatively short). I encourage you to read full paragraphs, helps to avoid confusion.

  17. #1117
    Quote Originally Posted by Sugarcube View Post
    lol... that's a fucking horrible system... so i can't leave the instance to change gear or talents or spec if i realize i've got the wrong ones?

    - - - Updated - - -



    if they're gonna implement leaver stats they better implement penalties for underperforming people... they are the ones causing the leavers lol...
    I don't think this is as easily doable tho.
    I know where this comes from, but I don't see any way to counter these people, sadly.

  18. #1118
    Warchief Sugarcube's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    So only a simple stat for leavers, but underperformers need to be punished? Doesn't sound like a fair solution.
    Besides, if you think it's mostly underperformers causing the problem, you shouldn't have too many troubles finding like-minded players that will happily invite you in spite of your high leaver%.
    underperformers are more of a problem than leavers are... on the frequent i run into people who are 220+ geared who do less dps than my bm hunter alt at 200 ilvl... people really should start leaving when they encounter such people... so they don't get any score...

    people who miss the hook on stitchflesh is very common when doing keys for your vault at 14...

    just earlier i had a wipe on the last boss in necrotic wake... why? because the druid shifted the moment he got the freeze on him and froze everyone except one dps...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    Well that's mostly because they cba to finish reading the paragraph (which was relatively short). I encourage you to read full paragraphs, helps to avoid confusion.
    your suggestion is just plain bad though...

    like, if we decide to abandon a key with a premade, we can't just leave? we have to vote to leave? if someone leaves before a vote is passed, he gets leaver? like, what kind of bad suggestion is this? m+ groups aren't looking for dungeon groups...
    Last edited by Sugarcube; 2021-05-11 at 12:45 PM.

  19. #1119
    Elemental Lord callipygoustp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Temp name View Post
    Tank was shit, I didn't deny that. But instead of leaving he could've, you know.. Stayed and finished the dungeon? That pull is doable on a +14 tyran week.
    I get it, its not the shitty tank's fault. People should just forgive that and not be toxic!


    wtf-ever.

  20. #1120
    Quote Originally Posted by Sugarcube View Post
    your suggestion is just plain bad though...
    like, if we decide to abandon a key with a premade, we can't just leave? we have to vote to leave? if someone leaves before a vote is passed, he gets leaver? like, what kind of bad suggestion is this? m+ groups aren't looking for dungeon groups...
    So you're saying that my suggestion is bad, because you cba to do a vote that would take as much time as a ready check does?
    Well at least I start to understand why you don't read entire paragraphs Oh, and another thing: this system could be implemented only for the PUG tool, not for premades. Please, if you encounter a problem, try to give it a second thought to find a solution. It's not as hard as you might think.
    Last edited by Rageonit; 2021-05-11 at 12:48 PM.

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