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  1. #1221
    Warchief Sugarcube's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    Yeah, of course.
    All I'm saying is that it's not nice to make fun of friends who don't know how Grievous works, when you don't know how the thing in your mouth called tongue works.
    if he's made his mind up that it's impossible to heal grievous as holy priest then it is so... no amount of explaining anything changes that...

  2. #1222
    Elemental Lord callipygoustp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    Dude how can grievous be difficult to learn? It’s difficult to manage, but to learn? People have to be topped or near to topped all the time, end of grievous mechanic.
    Man, the number of dps I've seen standing in sanguine this week......

    "Why am I dying?!?!?! Where are my heals!!!!"

    *Links damage taken/death log*

    "This healer sucks"

    Several times I've seen this this week. And whats really amazing, is often, its a ranged class bitching.

    Edit:
    And the above is with people all at or above 1200io.
    Last edited by callipygoustp; 2021-05-14 at 02:18 PM.

  3. #1223
    Epic! Alroxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    As far as I understand, this guy didn't understand the mechanic and you didn't even bother to explain. In my book, you're the bigger culprit. But yeah, "He was so bad there was no point explaining". Why then, did you even step into the dungeon with him?
    See there's the social construct... You can hold friends accountable to their actions (or lack of action in this case) but you couldn't do that in a PuG scenario because of the lack of a social construct.

    But to be honest, yeah I would have commented over discord like hey I still have grievous stacks are you healer going to remove them or do I need to sit and eat between pulls?
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  4. #1224
    Elemental Lord callipygoustp's Avatar
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    A scenario that always, and I mean ALWAYS, cracks me up in these threads:
    Placing more responsibility on a secondary party for teaching a mechanic rather than on a primary party for learning. Somehow, to some people here, you're the more toxic person for not teaching someone mechanics rather than holding the person who doesn't know the mechanics responsible. What kind of backwards logic is that?

  5. #1225
    Quote Originally Posted by callipygoustp View Post
    A scenario that always, and I mean ALWAYS, cracks me up in these threads:
    Placing more responsibility on a secondary party for teaching a mechanic rather than on a primary party for learning. Somehow, to some people here, you're the more toxic person for not teaching someone mechanics rather than holding the person who doesn't know the mechanics responsible. What kind of backwards logic is that?
    I've never called him toxic - just bad friend & bad player. If you're able to prevent multiple wipes by making a simple comment over discord, you SHOULD do it. Communicating is part of an MMO experience - players who can't communicate are universally worse than players who can (and do when it benefits the group). The logic here is simple: other people's mistakes don't absolve you from your own guilt. Read my comment above about modern MMO players going into dungeons with unfounded assumptions. You can blabla all you want about "the need to learn before you step into group content" - fact of the matter is, some people won't be on your level and if you can help the group by communication, that's also your responisibility. If you prefer to play in silence... you should play with bots, not people (and I bet many people would actually prefer that).
    Last edited by Rageonit; 2021-05-14 at 03:48 PM.

  6. #1226
    Quote Originally Posted by callipygoustp View Post
    A scenario that always, and I mean ALWAYS, cracks me up in these threads:
    Placing more responsibility on a secondary party for teaching a mechanic rather than on a primary party for learning. Somehow, to some people here, you're the more toxic person for not teaching someone mechanics rather than holding the person who doesn't know the mechanics responsible. What kind of backwards logic is that?
    It's not my job to teach people in 14+ keys very basic dungeon AND class mechanics. Those people should not be allowed to be inside any content without learning the freakin basics first. It's not hard, doesn't cost more than 20 minutes to learn class basics. Not learning basics first is more toxic than kicking those people out, or leaving runs with those. It does cost 4 other human beings their valuable time because one single person does not want to invest 20 minutes.

  7. #1227
    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    How bad the damage has to be for the trash packs to live so long that healer goes oom? I mean if you try it would be hard unless your dps is that bad or tank is just letting mobs swim in sang.
    That’s the right question. I was recently flamed for not being able to keep people alive in a 14 necrotic wake, when my total hps through Blightbone was 6.5k and the tank was chain pulling so I never got a drink. Pugs are real bad at determining responsibility for fails.
    The desperate last chance response of a person who is losing an argument on the forums:

    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    You DO realize that even if every user ever on these forums agreed with you, something even you would admit is impossible, that would not be 0.0001% of the player base, right? But sure, enjoy your echo chamber if you want.

  8. #1228
    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodyleech View Post
    It's not my job to teach people in 14+ keys very basic dungeon AND class mechanics. Those people should not be allowed to be inside any content without learning the freakin basics first. It's not hard, doesn't cost more than 20 minutes to learn class basics. Not learning basics first is more toxic than kicking those people out, or leaving runs with those. It does cost 4 other human beings their valuable time because one single person does not want to invest 20 minutes.
    Clearly, you're an example of the player type I'm talking about. "It doesn't cost a lot to learn", yet it costs you too much to explain (even if it would take much, much less than 20 minutes). Decency, comradeship - do those terms ring any bells? No? Yes, it's not your job to teach people basics; as it's not your job to be a kind human being. But does it have to be your job, for you to actually try to be one? For you, the 4 people you group with are problably nothing more than means to an end, right? Well then, I guess I'd had zero sympathy if somebody ruined your run.

  9. #1229
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    Clearly, you're an example of the player type I'm talking about. "It doesn't cost a lot to learn", yet it costs you too much to explain (even if it would take much, much less than 20 minutes). Decency, comradeship - do those terms ring any bells? No? Yes, it's not your job to teach people basics; as it's not your job to be a kind human being. But does it have to be your job, for you to actually try to be one? For you, the 4 people you group with are problably nothing more than means to an end, right? Well then, I guess I'd had zero sympathy if somebody ruined your run.
    Mythic plus isn't the place for that... mythic 0 is. Why are you acting like the very end of the game is the tutorial?

  10. #1230
    Elemental Lord callipygoustp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    I've never called him toxic - just bad friend & bad player. If you're able to prevent multiple wipes by making a simple comment over discord, you SHOULD do it. Communicating is part of an MMO experience - players who can't communicate are universally worse than players who can (and do when it benefits the group). The logic here is simple: other people's mistakes don't absolve you from your own guilt. Read my comment above about modern MMO players going into dungeons with unfounded assumptions. You can blabla all you want about "the need to learn before you step into group content" - fact of the matter is, some people won't be on your level and if you can help the group by communication, that's also your responisibility. If you prefer to play in silence... you should play with bots, not people (and I bet many people would actually prefer that).
    If you were taking my comment personally....

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodyleech View Post
    It's not my job to teach people in 14+ keys very basic dungeon AND class mechanics.
    -- snip--
    Did you think I was saying otherwise?

  11. #1231
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    That’s the right question. I was recently flamed for not being able to keep people alive in a 14 necrotic wake, when my total hps through Blightbone was 6.5k and the tank was chain pulling so I never got a drink. Pugs are real bad at determining responsibility for fails.
    Indeed. I mean grievous or not, if healer went oom, he healed something. If your dps are not potatoes you can survive that much without a healer just by killing shit and using your cds.

  12. #1232
    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    Mythic plus isn't the place for that... mythic 0 is. Why are you acting like the very end of the game is the tutorial?
    Lets get one thing straight here: people with that mindset won't explain in m0 either, because their time is "too precious" - take my word on that, I've seen elitist behaviour in low level mythics as often as I did in ~mid level ones (I myself don't play above 20, so can't comment on that part of the playerbase). If anything, they will flame you for being "so shit you can't even do a stupid m0".

    Now back to the point: why exactly not? A player with some semblance of skill can level up the key, never encountering some of the affixes; there's no "m+ training ground" in the game, so if you don't play regularly and miss some weeks, you can actually play for months without seeing some of them if you're a new player. But even if you think they should learn somehow, somewhere: You're in the damn dungeon already, and you see the guy doesn't know what to do, and you're on discord with him. In what world is it better to sit quiet for 5 pulls and wipe instead of making a simple comment? Please, explain.

    EDIT: Oh, and it's actually not m0, as m0 doesn't have affixes. Things like the seasonal affix, you can't even learn below 10.
    Last edited by Rageonit; 2021-05-14 at 04:23 PM.

  13. #1233
    Warchief Sugarcube's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    That’s the right question. I was recently flamed for not being able to keep people alive in a 14 necrotic wake, when my total hps through Blightbone was 6.5k and the tank was chain pulling so I never got a drink. Pugs are real bad at determining responsibility for fails.
    lol... people are really stupid in pugs...

    i had someone tell me i need to do more hps or we will wipe to the prides when i was playing my druid... same guy... suddenly moves and stuns me just as i pop tranquillity... barely manage to keep party alive... pride taking ages to die... "ok, i'll pop convoke here, that'll save us"... as soon as i pressed my convoke that guy moves and stuns me again... then we died...

  14. #1234
    Epic! Alroxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by callipygoustp View Post
    What kind of backwards logic is that?
    It's one thing to have a "learning" run versus a "completion/push" run especially for M+. In the former, sure we can take the time to teach and others can take the time to learn but the in later, the expectation is that the players should already have prior knowledge (and hopefully prior experience).

    But how are players supposed to learn? Well if they don't take shortcuts and actually run M+ multiple times from +2 to +15 (or higher) incrementing only +1 each a round (with a round consisting of doing the entire world tour of dungeons), then gradually players learn the nuanced details of each dungeon. Additionally, there are also additional sources from wowhead to mythic trap to youtube to twitch streamers. Even the MDI offers some strategies that could be adopted for non-MDI players.

    But that's a lot of work, why can't I just jump from a +2 to a +7/+8 to a +10 to a +15? Sure you can do so but at the danger of lacking both knowledge and experience which will probably lead to more frustration as failures increase. Failures being defined here as missing or not handling a mechanic. Some failures can be covered by exceptional players but eventually the thresholds of small failures will lead to the timer expiring and may lead other folks to leave before the dungeon is finished.
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  15. #1235
    Warchief Sugarcube's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    It's one thing to have a "learning" run versus a "completion/push" run especially for M+. In the former, sure we can take the time to teach and others can take the time to learn but the in later, the expectation is that the players should already have prior knowledge (and hopefully prior experience).

    But how are players supposed to learn? Well if they don't take shortcuts and actually run M+ multiple times from +2 to +15 (or higher) incrementing only +1 each a round (with a round consisting of doing the entire world tour of dungeons), then gradually players learn the nuanced details of each dungeon. Additionally, there are also additional sources from wowhead to mythic trap to youtube to twitch streamers. Even the MDI offers some strategies that could be adopted for non-MDI players.

    But that's a lot of work, why can't I just jump from a +2 to a +7/+8 to a +10 to a +15? Sure you can do so but at the danger of lacking both knowledge and experience which will probably lead to more frustration as failures increase. Failures being defined here as missing or not handling a mechanic. Some failures can be covered by exceptional players but eventually the thresholds of small failures will lead to the timer expiring and may lead other folks to leave before the dungeon is finished.
    lol... holy shit... i was going to do plaguefall on my paladin earlier... "we need cc for big slime"... 2 paladins in the group... me as healer and the tank... the one saying we need cc for big slime was the other paladin... he had fucking 2k rio and didn't know you could use turn evil on the slime because it's an aberration...

  16. #1236
    Elemental Lord callipygoustp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    It's one thing to have a "learning" run versus a "completion/push" run especially for M+. In the former, sure we can take the time to teach and others can take the time to learn but the in later, the expectation is that the players should already have prior knowledge (and hopefully prior experience).

    But how are players supposed to learn? Well if they don't take shortcuts and actually run M+ multiple times from +2 to +15 (or higher) incrementing only +1 each a round (with a round consisting of doing the entire world tour of dungeons), then gradually players learn the nuanced details of each dungeon. Additionally, there are also additional sources from wowhead to mythic trap to youtube to twitch streamers. Even the MDI offers some strategies that could be adopted for non-MDI players.

    But that's a lot of work, why can't I just jump from a +2 to a +7/+8 to a +10 to a +15? Sure you can do so but at the danger of lacking both knowledge and experience which will probably lead to more frustration as failures increase. Failures being defined here as missing or not handling a mechanic. Some failures can be covered by exceptional players but eventually the thresholds of small failures will lead to the timer expiring and may lead other folks to leave before the dungeon is finished.
    What the fuck does this have to do with what I said? Or maybe you misquoted me.

  17. #1237
    Epic! Alroxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    Lets get one thing straight here: people with that mindset won't explain in m0 either, because their time is "too precious"
    Again it depends on the goals of the group. If I'm advertising a "+12 push" then the expectation is that players applying should know what to do and know the dungeon well enough. Part of r.io score's appeal is that it does give a rough sense that if someone has sufficiently high enough score and high enough keys done in time in XYZ bracket, then they know the dungeon, know the affixes and know their role.

    Alternatively, if I advertise a group run "+10 LEARNING", then I expect players who apply to realize that this group will be going slower. Probably will have semi-long pauses as we explain mechanics or provide strategies. In general, this run might take a hour but that's ok because we're training/teaching someone about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    there's no "m+ training ground" in the game, so if you don't play regularly and miss some weeks, you can actually play for months without seeing some of them if you're a new player. But even if you think they should learn somehow, somewhere
    Numerous resources online. If a player is new to M+ (or raiding or PvP), shouldn't the responsibility be on that new player to do some research ahead of time? Yeah it's a game but who hasn't gone online before to look up something on wowhead or check youtube for a solution to a game puzzle/mechanic?

    And while experience is valuable, it would at the very least be considerate for new players to factor in the valued time of their party members. For instance, I just got a new toon up to level 60 and this week's is Emissary of War and I was presented with the option to go on this alt in some M+ or even some M0. However, I took a hard look and said nope, not on this alt who isn't even properly geared. The drag on the group (even at M+0) IMO would be too much so I opted out and brought in a better geared alt for those runs.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by callipygoustp View Post
    What the fuck does this have to do with what I said? Or maybe you misquoted me.
    Somehow, to some people here, you're the more toxic person for not teaching someone mechanics rather than holding the person who doesn't know the mechanics responsible.
    In reference to toxicity of not teaching, it depends on the goals of the group: In a completion/push advertised group, the expectation is prior knowledge (and hopefully prior experience). There's no "time" to take and pause to explain during the run.
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  18. #1238
    Elemental Lord callipygoustp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    In reference to toxicity of not teaching, it depends on the goals of the group: In a completion/push advertised group, the expectation is prior knowledge (and hopefully prior experience). There's no "time" to take and pause to explain during the run.
    Again, not what I was talking about.

  19. #1239
    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    Again it depends on the goals of the group. If I'm advertising a "+12 push" then the expectation is that players applying should know what to do and know the dungeon well enough. Part of r.io score's appeal is that it does give a rough sense that if someone has sufficiently high enough score and high enough keys done in time in XYZ bracket, then they know the dungeon, know the affixes and know their role.

    Alternatively, if I advertise a group run "+10 LEARNING", then I expect players who apply to realize that this group will be going slower. Probably will have semi-long pauses as we explain mechanics or provide strategies. In general, this run might take a hour but that's ok because we're training/teaching someone about it.
    That's in a perfect world where people actually communicate stuff - and often they don't, most keys in the LFG tool are "15+" or the like (personally, never seen a "learning" key, and I do m+ quite a bit). Then, you have people who are supposedly ok with wipes when you invite them, and who leave after a wipe or two. I mean, I agree with everything you wrote - yet I feel like we live in two different worlds. For things to work the way you're laying out here, people have to communicate - and the entire discussion started, for me, with a post of a guy who wiped 5 times with his friend (being with him on discord!) and didn't say a word, while maintaining he knew well enough what was the cause of failure. Don't you see the root of the problem?

    And what it boils down to is, really, a bit of human decency. You can't reasonably expect that players will be on the same page all the time, that they will always communicate their needs clearly enough - so, yeah, sometimes you will encounter that guy who's not doing what he's supposed to do, even though, in your mind, he should. And you know what: just drop that run if you really want to. But to stay with the guy for 5 pulls and allow for 5 wipes, without saying a word - just to crack jokes about him on mmo-champ? Wow. Just wow. Shows rather clearly where real problems lie.

    So yeah, you can make educated posts about things like m+ level, expected player skill & knowledge and what not, but in the end, it's mostly about not being a prick. It's really as simple as that.

  20. #1240
    Free Food!?!?! Tziva's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    The dude to whom I replied said that grievous was a difficult mechanic to understand. It’s not. It’s hard to MANAGE, but mechanic itself is straight forward. For example I know what Stradama tentacles do, but I just ger caught. That’s ok, but you can’t tell me in a 15 that you have no idea of what tentacles do.

    I refuse to believe that someone has difficulty in understanding how grievous works. I instead can fully understand that people have issues in dealing with it, this is “intended”.
    The dude you replied to (me) absolutely did not say grievous was a difficult mechanic to learn.

    I don't think anyone has claimed understanding it was difficult. People have only commented that some people don't understand it, and that for some it is a hard affix.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    Mythic plus isn't the place for that... mythic 0 is. Why are you acting like the very end of the game is the tutorial?
    Honestly, disagree. Maybe at the very start of the expansion, m0 was better but nowadays, low keys are a much better learning environment. Stuff dies so fast in a zero that if you are running it to learn mechanics you're not going to get any sense of them, and some you'll miss entirely.

    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    How bad the damage has to be for the trash packs to live so long that healer goes oom? I mean if you try it would be hard unless your dps is that bad or tank is just letting mobs swim in sang.
    To be fair, it is sanguine week and with some places with difficult to move caster mobs means you can end up DPSing some mobs from full to dead a second time. Even an experienced tank can have it happen sometimes if you just get unlucky, but if anyone is a learning tank who doesn't have a ton of practice with sanguine, the DPS could be dealing with a lot of healing this week, which in turn is going to burden the healer. (but also yeah in midrange keys, subpar dps isn't abnormal either)
    Last edited by Tziva; 2021-05-14 at 05:45 PM.

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