1. #1341
    Quote Originally Posted by Goatfish View Post
    I've already gone over this. Learning mechanics is one thing, performing in spite of mechanics is another. An good returning player will learn and adapt to new mechanics far faster and more reliably than your average player. I've already done plenty of dungeons with people sitting at 1300-1600 RIO who consistently chill in volcanic, can't position for quake, and pull dps numbers my 186 ele shaman does. If you decline to invite people willing to learn, you are just making the community worse because you would rather get in and get your reward selfishly than play a multiplayer game.

    As I already said previously, being able to perform at high content requires people to get into the content. This is why raid groups wipe non-stop to a boss instead of lowering the difficulty to practice. If you want people to get better, they have to overcome challenges and gain experience at the level you want them to be good at. If you are not using the practice of "The zone of proximal development" then you are failing. You need to be doing something hard enough that you can fail at it but does not have a 100% failure rate. The higher the failure chance, the greater the mechanical and psychological reward you get from completion. The problem is that people that don't want to talk to or teach other players are just telling them to go back and do content that isn't challenging and doesn't develop them as players. Then these same people are complaining about how bad the community is when they are actively making it worse instead of better.
    Yeah, the pug world doesn't care about that. They want to do the dungeon to get the loot at the end. They want the best possible chance at getting that loot, which doesn't mean teaching or learning. We're deep into farm period. People want to get in, do the dungeon, and get out. You might be super elite amazing gamer player person, but they don't know that, and if you have no way of proving it in current content, they don't care that you used to be good in high school.

    You coming on here talking about your past glories certainly isn't going to change their mind. All evidence that pug players gather points them towards this - get someone who can demonstrate current proficiency. Even if you miss out on the amazing person who cannot prove current proficiency, it is worth it to avoid the hundreds of players who you will encounter who will just destroy your run because they have no idea what to do, even if they once knew how to play a decade ago.

    Pugs are not there to "make the community better". More permanent social groups are there to do that. Pugs are there because there happen to be 5 people that all want something, usually gear, either directly or in the form of weekly chest. They are held together only by that desire to get that thing. Nothing else. They will almost never speak again afterwards. And this is nothing new. An alliance formed purely to obtain gear is not likely to be stable. Defining a random ass assortment of 5 people who happened to be looking to do a dungeon as "the community" is where this starts and ends, and is complete nonsense. That is not a community. That's just some people in the same place. There's a difference.
    Last edited by klogaroth; 2021-05-29 at 03:07 AM.

  2. #1342
    Quote Originally Posted by Goatfish View Post
    The more accurate comparison would be applying to a current Michelin star restaurant with many years preciously working at them, but you have been out of the restaurant industry for a few years. WoW has not drastically changed in the past 3 years. It hasn't suddenly turned into a MOBA or a RTS or a Platformer, it is functionally the same game as it was with different tuned numbers. Now you are obviously trying to bait, I see this forum is as full of shitters trying to borderline troll in an attempt to make people mad as it was 3 years ago.
    Why is the concept of relevant experience for relevant content so alien to you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goatfish View Post
    I've already gone over this. Learning mechanics is one thing, performing in spite of mechanics is another. An good returning player will learn and adapt to new mechanics far faster and more reliably than your average player. I've already done plenty of dungeons with people sitting at 1300-1600 RIO who consistently chill in volcanic, can't position for quake, and pull dps numbers my 186 ele shaman does. If you decline to invite people willing to learn, you are just making the community worse because you would rather get in and get your reward selfishly than play a multiplayer game.

    As I already said previously, being able to perform at high content requires people to get into the content. This is why raid groups wipe non-stop to a boss instead of lowering the difficulty to practice. If you want people to get better, they have to overcome challenges and gain experience at the level you want them to be good at. If you are not using the practice of "The zone of proximal development" then you are failing. You need to be doing something hard enough that you can fail at it but does not have a 100% failure rate. The higher the failure chance, the greater the mechanical and psychological reward you get from completion. The problem is that people that don't want to talk to or teach other players are just telling them to go back and do content that isn't challenging and doesn't develop them as players. Then these same people are complaining about how bad the community is when they are actively making it worse instead of better.
    Yeah dude, people are totally declining 186 Ele Shamans from their +15s because they're afraid of "letting them learn." Are you for real?

  3. #1343
    Bloodsail Admiral Goatfish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by klogaroth View Post
    Yeah, the pug world doesn't care about that. They want to do the dungeon to get the loot at the end. They want the best possible chance at getting that loot, which doesn't mean teaching or learning. We're deep into farm period. People want to get in, do the dungeon, and get out. You might be super elite amazing gamer player person, but they don't know that, and if you have no way of proving it in current content, they don't care that you used to be good in high school.

    You coming on here talking about your past glories certainly isn't going to change their mind. All evidence that pug players gather points them towards this - get someone who can demonstrate current proficiency. Even if you miss out on the amazing person who cannot prove current proficiency, it is worth it to avoid the hundreds of players who you will encounter who will just destroy your run because they have no idea what to do, even if they once knew how to play a decade ago.

    Pugs are not there to "make the community better". More permanent social groups are there to do that. Pugs are there because there happen to be 5 people that all want something, usually gear, either directly or in the form of weekly chest. They are held together only by that desire to get that thing. Nothing else. They will almost never speak again afterwards. And this is nothing new. An alliance formed purely to obtain gear is not likely to be stable. Defining a random ass assortment of 5 people who happened to be looking to do a dungeon as "the community" is where this starts and ends, and is complete nonsense. That is not a community. That's just some people in the same place. There's a difference.
    Then the pug community needs to stop complaining about how bad pugs are if they are unwilling to help people get better. End of story. That is what taking responsibility means, you either put up or shut up, otherwise you are the cause of your own misfortune. I've mentored and given advice to hundreds of players over the years because I understand this. Instead of just getting mad that someone isn't playing at your level, you should be using it as an opportunity for growth instead of rage quitting and complaining about it to strangers on the internet.

    If someone wants me to link an achievement to prove I am not bad (and keep in mind this isn't for 15's or whatever made-up argument these trolls are assuming, at the time it was for a +6 while my mage main was at about 195 ilvl), and I do not have current achievements because I recently started, what in your opinion should I be linking if not an achievement showing I completed one of the most difficult encounters in the games history while it was still relevant content? This isn't just me reliving the glory days, this is a serious question. I mean using the chef analogy, if I was applying to be a line cook at an Applebee's/ (insert mediocre chain restaurant here), why would I not put the fact that I used to work at a Michelin star restaurant on the resume if it was my most prestigious achievement? I mean if they wanted more recent I could have linked the time I got a free month during BFA and got AOTC in Uldir for kicks. Either way, getting asked that question for 6 when the gear from it is barely relevant to my character is absurd enough as it is, but I was asked purely because I didn't have a lot of RIO experience built up.

    Pugs are not there to "make the community better".
    This btw is not only crap, but degrading to the WoW community as a whole. It's the same attitude people take when screaming at fast food workers as if they aren't real people. If another human being is using their time to play with you or help you, you don't spit on them. Taking the attitude of "The world can burn down as long as I have some people I enjoy in my bunker" is the exact attitude that is making life shitty for everyone else in and out of game.
    Last edited by Goatfish; 2021-05-29 at 07:47 AM.

  4. #1344
    Quote Originally Posted by Goatfish View Post
    This btw is not only crap, but degrading to the WoW community as a whole. It's the same attitude people take when screaming at fast food workers as if they aren't real people. If another human being is using their time to play with you or help you, you don't spit on them. Taking the attitude of "The world can burn down as long as I have some people I enjoy in my bunker" is the exact attitude that is making life shitty for everyone else in and out of game.
    You misunderstand the purpose of a pug, and the nature of it. Possibly wilfully, but I'll leave that aside.

    The purpose of a pug beyond the initial weeks of a tier is to get some reward. Usually gear. The nature is that it is a bunch of random people.

    A group leader sees a bunch of applicants. They don't owe the applicants to their group anything. They just want to do a dungeon, without having everyone submit a resume and go through interviews and assessments. Put yourself in their shoes. They want to make a quick decision. What are you bringing to the table that the 90+ other applicants for their dungeon spot aren't? If your plan to distinguish yourself is that you were good a decade ago, then it's just not going to cut it. The whole project is held together only by the desire of the participants to obtain the reward. You don't have to be a dick to people, in fact it's best if you aren't, because that jeopardises the chance of the group sticking together to obtain the rewards. If you were there to socialise though, it would be recruitment for a standing M+ team, or a guild. But pugs are not that. They are a temporary alliance, held together by the promise of a reward, that will almost certainly dissolve after a single play session. A dungeon one night stand.

    I'm not sure how you got to screaming at fast food workers from there, but I'd advise that you don't. It's also a different situation entirely. Think not about comparing yourself to a fast food worker, but to a restaurant. With an M+ group leader as a customer. They don't owe any particular restaurant their business. They are going to eat at the restaurant that looks good now, when they want to eat.

  5. #1345
    Bloodsail Admiral Goatfish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by klogaroth View Post
    You misunderstand the purpose of a pug, and the nature of it. Possibly wilfully, but I'll leave that aside.

    The purpose of a pug beyond the initial weeks of a tier is to get some reward. Usually gear. The nature is that it is a bunch of random people.

    A group leader sees a bunch of applicants. They don't owe the applicants to their group anything. They just want to do a dungeon, without having everyone submit a resume and go through interviews and assessments. Put yourself in their shoes. They want to make a quick decision. What are you bringing to the table that the 90+ other applicants for their dungeon spot aren't? If your plan to distinguish yourself is that you were good a decade ago, then it's just not going to cut it. The whole project is held together only by the desire of the participants to obtain the reward. You don't have to be a dick to people, in fact it's best if you aren't, because that jeopardises the chance of the group sticking together to obtain the rewards. If you were there to socialise though, it would be recruitment for a standing M+ team, or a guild. But pugs are not that. They are a temporary alliance, held together by the promise of a reward, that will almost certainly dissolve after a single play session. A dungeon one night stand.

    I'm not sure how you got to screaming at fast food workers from there, but I'd advise that you don't. It's also a different situation entirely. Think not about comparing yourself to a fast food worker, but to a restaurant. With an M+ group leader as a customer. They don't owe any particular restaurant their business. They are going to eat at the restaurant that looks good now, when they want to eat.
    I'm saying it's the same as the fast food worker, because any interaction with strangers IRL is temporarily coming together for a common goal. The term "Karen" comes about from people who get angry at the slightest mistake or perceived mistake within obtaining that common goal. This is exactly what people who get angry at other pugs are doing, when at the very least you should be nice, respectful, or quiet as you say. The way to make things better, is to give help or guidance when you know how to give help. That is to say, when the fast food worker gives you kids burger instead of the double cheeseburger you ordered, you talk to them respectfully and don't scream at them. What happens in M+ when any problem emerges is commonly the people that would throw the meal at the workers face and scream for a refund.

    Communities come in all sizes and they affect each other. You seem to believe you have the "true nature" of what a pug is, I would respectfully disagree. People play the game for all kinds of reasons and motivations, and what you are doing is making the childish mistake of assuming that everyone understands everything you know in the same way that you understand it.

    You completely ignored the direct question to you, so I'll pose it again. I really am curious because you keep shit talking my gaming history for whatever reason. If someone wants me to link an achievement to prove I am not bad (and keep in mind this isn't for 15's or whatever made-up argument these trolls are assuming, at the time it was for a +6 while my mage main was at about 195 ilvl), and I do not have current achievements because I recently started, what in your opinion should I be linking if not an achievement showing I completed one of the most difficult encounters in the games history while it was still relevant content?

  6. #1346
    Quote Originally Posted by Velshin View Post
    There has to be a solution for players like that who are purposely ruining other players keys...
    A few potential solutions I could think of honestly.

    1) Improve the matchmaking system and put a hidden SSR rating based on what you have completed, your ilvl, and how well you do comparatively to others of the same spec as you. Then when you enter the dungeon queue, it tries to put you in a similar skill level group and tells you, "Hey, this group can probably only manage a +7."

    If you want to do something higher at that point it's on the person to put together a group without the help of the match maker system. People doing group finding the manual way then have to accept that you don't know what you're going to get.

    2) The carrot approach. Make the rewards for finishing a dungeon more valuable to the point people want to stay in them. It could be simple as a little extra Valor for completing a dungeon that you don't time.

    3) The stick approach. Make an ever increasing timer for people who leave before a dungeon timer runs out that blocks them from entering dungeons. 1 hr, 2 hr, 4 hrs, 8 hrs, etc. doubling every time. If you leave 10 dungeons before the timer is up, you're essentially locked out of dungeons for 3 weeks. If you want to leave after the timer has expired but before the dungeon is finished, a simple 30 minute lockout should suffice.

  7. #1347
    Quote Originally Posted by Thetruth1400 View Post
    A few potential solutions I could think of honestly.

    1) Improve the matchmaking system and put a hidden SSR rating based on what you have completed, your ilvl, and how well you do comparatively to others of the same spec as you. Then when you enter the dungeon queue, it tries to put you in a similar skill level group and tells you, "Hey, this group can probably only manage a +7."

    If you want to do something higher at that point it's on the person to put together a group without the help of the match maker system. People doing group finding the manual way then have to accept that you don't know what you're going to get.

    2) The carrot approach. Make the rewards for finishing a dungeon more valuable to the point people want to stay in them. It could be simple as a little extra Valor for completing a dungeon that you don't time.

    3) The stick approach. Make an ever increasing timer for people who leave before a dungeon timer runs out that blocks them from entering dungeons. 1 hr, 2 hr, 4 hrs, 8 hrs, etc. doubling every time. If you leave 10 dungeons before the timer is up, you're essentially locked out of dungeons for 3 weeks. If you want to leave after the timer has expired but before the dungeon is finished, a simple 30 minute lockout should suffice.
    #1 Tanks/Healer wouldn't use them, except if they are new too - even then the pure random group making is not attractive.
    #2 Valor is capped, extra valor would be worthless. The rewards would have to be really really big - even with something like 10k gold I wouldn't finish a dungeon with people who can't use their braincells and take 1-2h for a clear. Time is worth more than anything Blizz can give me.
    #3 Ok, I won't leave, instead afk, or pull stuff, or just autoshot [....].
    Next

  8. #1348
    Quote Originally Posted by Goatfish View Post
    I'm saying it's the same as the fast food worker, because any interaction with strangers IRL is temporarily coming together for a common goal. The term "Karen" comes about from people who get angry at the slightest mistake or perceived mistake within obtaining that common goal. This is exactly what people who get angry at other pugs are doing, when at the very least you should be nice, respectful, or quiet as you say. The way to make things better, is to give help or guidance when you know how to give help. That is to say, when the fast food worker gives you kids burger instead of the double cheeseburger you ordered, you talk to them respectfully and don't scream at them. What happens in M+ when any problem emerges is commonly the people that would throw the meal at the workers face and scream for a refund.

    Communities come in all sizes and they affect each other. You seem to believe you have the "true nature" of what a pug is, I would respectfully disagree. People play the game for all kinds of reasons and motivations, and what you are doing is making the childish mistake of assuming that everyone understands everything you know in the same way that you understand it.

    You completely ignored the direct question to you, so I'll pose it again. I really am curious because you keep shit talking my gaming history for whatever reason. If someone wants me to link an achievement to prove I am not bad (and keep in mind this isn't for 15's or whatever made-up argument these trolls are assuming, at the time it was for a +6 while my mage main was at about 195 ilvl), and I do not have current achievements because I recently started, what in your opinion should I be linking if not an achievement showing I completed one of the most difficult encounters in the games history while it was still relevant content?
    Are there people that kick up a fuss when leaving? For sure. But leaving in and of itself is perfectly fine. You can walk out of a restaurant without kicking up a fuss if the service is poor. That's what people are doing a lot of the time when they leave M+ groups. They had certain expectations, those weren't met, they leave. People aren't obligated to give custom to a restaurant with poor service, they don't have to be nasty about it, but they're free to go elsewhere. Same in M+. They are strangers on the internet. Exactly how much obligation do you think they're going to have? Also remember that any obligation placed upon them is also placed upon you, and you bind yourself to strangers on the internet. Is that a situation you really want to be in, where you can't just walk away? Because you don't know them ahead of time. You could be tying yourself to anyone.

    If you're trying to join groups that require you to have something current, you are clashing in goals. It is clear that you don't understand what it is they are looking for. They want a group of people with current knowledge, and the supply of applicants is such that they can get that. You are part of a surplus supply, when there is limited demand. Their requirements aren't set in a vacuum. They are set by the sort of applicants they will get to their group. You need to worry not about some hard minimum requirement for the content, but to consider who else is in that queue with you. To make matters worse, say groups for no reason at all start inviting people much more freely, it's going to lower their success rate. It's going to make the M+ leavers problem worse. Sure, *you* might be the exceptional diamond in the rough, but filling a group with people who don't know the current content, at this point in a tier, without explicitly stating that it's a learning group? That's going to cause failure and conflict.

    If you are looking to progress, you need to find a way to connect with other people in similar situations. Whether that comes in the form of eventually finding that through group finder, other in game channels, guilds, communities, discords, forums, wherever.

    There are plenty of group finder listings where there is a spot in the group for a tiny fraction of the applicants. Even by random dice roll you could spend half an evening applying to groups before you got in one. You need to either be in the group at the start, bypass that system entirely, or find some way to stand out as the best person in the queue. Old achievements just don't do that, bearing in mind that in many cases there are plenty of people in the queue with old and new achievements. You aren't the only person to clear past content.

    To move through content without prior experience you either need to invest absurd amounts of time hoping to get lucky, do it with a foundation of some sort of semi stable group, or be there when it releases. Having to compete against other applicants and prove yourself in some way every single time you want to do a dungeon is always going to take ages. There's no way around it.
    Last edited by klogaroth; 2021-05-29 at 08:15 PM.

  9. #1349
    Free Food!?!?! Tziva's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goatfish View Post
    You completely ignored the direct question to you, so I'll pose it again. I really am curious because you keep shit talking my gaming history for whatever reason. If someone wants me to link an achievement to prove I am not bad (and keep in mind this isn't for 15's or whatever made-up argument these trolls are assuming, at the time it was for a +6 while my mage main was at about 195 ilvl), and I do not have current achievements because I recently started, what in your opinion should I be linking if not an achievement showing I completed one of the most difficult encounters in the games history while it was still relevant content?
    Nothing. You don't link anything because you don't have anything relevant.

    What matters most in m+ is experience. The fact you did high level content once is nice on your overall WoW resume and might reflect you have potential to someone, say, building a raid team, but is nearly meaningless in a context where what people care about is that you know boss mechanics, interrupt priority, skips, etc. The fact the achievement is also super old just makes its relevance even less.

    The most useful thing you can do for getting into keystones when you're getting back into the game after a long time is just starting with low keys and working your way up. People are significantly less discerning on gear or experience levels there, so getting invites isn't too hard and should only take a handful of signups before you find yourself in a group. Low keys are invaluable because they will teach you the critical things in a context where a mistake isn't the end of the world. They also generally are lenient enough on time that people can toss one line explanations in chat if you say you need them. It's also helpful in that it will build score which will help you get invites to PuGs far more than any achievement ever would.

    Luckily, in my experience people asking you to link achievements to get invites to M+ is exceedingly rare, probably because the most relevant achievements are usually reflected in raider.io score which doesn't require someone to link in order to see it. So this whole scenario of being worried about what to link is so niche anyway you might not even ever encounter it again.

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  10. #1350
    Bloodsail Admiral Goatfish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tziva View Post
    Nothing. You don't link anything because you don't have anything relevant.

    What matters most in m+ is experience. The fact you did high level content once is nice on your overall WoW resume and might reflect you have potential to someone, say, building a raid team, but is nearly meaningless in a context where what people care about is that you know boss mechanics, interrupt priority, skips, etc. The fact the achievement is also super old just makes its relevance even less.

    The most useful thing you can do for getting into keystones when you're getting back into the game after a long time is just starting with low keys and working your way up. People are significantly less discerning on gear or experience levels there, so getting invites isn't too hard and should only take a handful of signups before you find yourself in a group. Low keys are invaluable because they will teach you the critical things in a context where a mistake isn't the end of the world. They also generally are lenient enough on time that people can toss one line explanations in chat if you say you need them. It's also helpful in that it will build score which will help you get invites to PuGs far more than any achievement ever would.

    Luckily, in my experience people asking you to link achievements to get invites to M+ is exceedingly rare, probably because the most relevant achievements are usually reflected in raider.io score which doesn't require someone to link in order to see it. So this whole scenario of being worried about what to link is so niche anyway you might not even ever encounter it again.
    It doesn't matter how niche it is if several people on these forums are shit talking me for telling a story. It's like saying someone who used to be a core raider in Method is suddenly a shitter and their former experience means nothing. It's just flat wrong. That's why I posed the question in the first place, if someone thinks linking a heroic dungeon achievement would be worth more even though the difficulty isn't even on the same planet, I would heartily disagree. If I were asking for someone to link an achievement for a Plaguefall Mythic, and one person links me Death's Demise and another person links me Heroic Plaguefall, I'm taking the Death's Demise because heroic Plaguefall is a joke and anyone who has levelled to 60 has almost undoubtedly done the dungeon on normal for xp and has seen basic mechanics and layout/path at least once.

    Maybe I'm in the minority in thinking that the mechanics in these dungeons are pretty obvious and that about a 6 mythic are what heroics should have been in the first place. As it stands, heroics are in this weird spot where they are practically useless both for experience and for loot.

    At the end of the day, we can have a difference in opinion and play our own ways. This is a game, and I am perfectly able to tell others that I dislike their attitude without saying they have to change it. I'm just pointing out that that attitude is helping create the problem they so often complain about, if they don't want to see that, then it's no skin off my back.
    Last edited by Goatfish; 2021-05-29 at 10:09 PM.

  11. #1351
    Quote Originally Posted by Goatfish View Post
    Death's Demise
    Says literally nothing to most of us. Wouldn't invite people by achievement. There are plenty of people farming valor with proven experience.

  12. #1352
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goatfish View Post
    If I were asking for someone to link an achievement for a Plaguefall Mythic, and one person links me Death's Demise and another person links me Heroic Plaguefall, I'm taking the Death's Demise
    And this is where most people will disagree with you. As impressive as DD is, it's also over 10 years old. At least the heroic plaguefall has seen all the mechanics, whereas all the mechanics aren't in the dungeon on normal. If you want groups, play the content and push up yourself.

  13. #1353
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goatfish View Post
    It doesn't matter how niche it is if several people on these forums are shit talking me for telling a story. It's like saying someone who used to be a core raider in Method is suddenly a shitter and their former experience means nothing. It's just flat wrong. That's why I posed the question in the first place, if someone thinks linking a heroic dungeon achievement would be worth more even though the difficulty isn't even on the same planet, I would heartily disagree. If I were asking for someone to link an achievement for a Plaguefall Mythic, and one person links me Death's Demise and another person links me Heroic Plaguefall, I'm taking the Death's Demise because heroic Plaguefall is a joke and anyone who has levelled to 60 has almost undoubtedly done the dungeon on normal for xp and has seen basic mechanics and layout/path at least once.
    It does matter if it is niche, because this is not a scenario that would actually happen in reality. No one is going to be linking a heroic plaguefall or a death's demise achievement for a mythic plaguefall. If it's a zero or a super low key, people are going to be inviting by comp or ilvl because achievements are irrelevant and evaluating them is too much effort for entry level content. If its a higher key, they are going to be inviting by score. Arguing about whether a heroic PF achievement is worth more than a DD feat is just a silly waste of time because that's a debate that would literally never crop up in actual pug building. People don't use achievements for keystones (like they might for raids) and certainly not ones that have almost no relevance on the content and difficulty being prepared for.

    Maybe I'm in the minority in thinking that the mechanics in these dungeons are pretty obvious.
    There are certainly mechanics that are obvious (largely everything in the "that is bad, don't stand in it" category), but there are also lots that aren't. But keystones are about more than just knowing mechanics anyway. You also need to know general strategies and routes, kill priority, interrupt priority, and little nuances like knowing which mobs are going to run when they get low and maybe pull stuff that is going to fuck your count, or which abilities not to interrupt. All of that you only get from experience in the dungeon itself.
    Last edited by Tziva; 2021-05-29 at 11:27 PM.

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  14. #1354
    Bloodsail Admiral Goatfish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tziva View Post
    It does matter if it is niche, because this is not a scenario that would actually happen in reality. No one is going to be linking a heroic plaguefall or a death's demise achievement for a mythic plaguefall. If it's a zero or a super low key, people are going to be inviting by comp or ilvl because achievements are irrelevant and evaluating them is too much effort for entry level content. If its a higher key, they are going to be inviting by score. Arguing about whether a heroic PF achievement is worth more than a DD feat is just a silly waste of time because that's a debate that would literally never crop up in actual pug building. People don't use achievements for keystones (like they might for raids) and certainly not ones that have almost no relevance on the content and difficulty being prepared for.


    There are certainly mechanics that are obvious (largely everything in the "that is bad, don't stand in it" category), but there are also lots that aren't. But keystones are about more than just knowing mechanics anyway. You also need to know general strategies and routes, kill priority, interrupt priority, and little nuances like knowing which mobs are going to run when they get low and maybe pull stuff that is going to fuck your count, or which abilities not to interrupt. All of that you only get from experience in the dungeon itself.
    "Not going to happen in reality", so apparently I'm a liar for no apparent reason. It's one heck of a story to make up just for kicks, but believe what you want. As far as mechanics being obvious or not, in lower keys many of these mechanics get off anyway and there is plenty of opportunity to learn, and a good player will learn and adapt quickly. I mean it took me one time seeing "Drain Fluids" in Necrotic Wake to understand it had priority kick/kill target. The same goes for any other ability that inconveniences the group in any way. An old achievement of that magnitude is also a sign that I've played enough to know what other classes can do or not do and how to interact with a group and change strategies based off what tank, healer, or dps I might have.

    There are enough mechanics that are screwed up even by people who have seen them a hundred times that an adaptive player is always better than one who has experience. The issues you are bringing up are literally noob mistakes such as dps pulling mobs instead of the tank or having 0 situational awareness. Again, different strokes for different folks. I have never been talking about doing high keys, that is a straw man you and others on this thread have constantly been bringing up in an attempt to prove me "wrong" even though that has never been the subject I've been talking about. You can keep pretending I'm arguing for inviting fresh 60's with old achievements to M15+'s or Mythic Nathria, but that has never been the case and you are wrong to make that argument.

    I will say, thanks for agreeing that people need to get experience in the dungeon itself in order to obtain that experience. This is my biggest argument. You can't learn to heal a +15 by constantly doing M0's or even M5's. You have to experience the content to have experience in the content, which is why I have issue with people who will only invite 210ilvl for normal CN or people who farm +15's to their +9. To me those are just people hoping for a carry and it does nothing to increase the pool of players good enough to do said content.
    Last edited by Goatfish; 2021-05-30 at 12:15 AM.

  15. #1355
    Quote Originally Posted by Goatfish View Post
    This is my biggest argument. You can't learn to heal a +15 by constantly doing M0's or even M5's. You have to experience the content to have experience in the content, which is why I have issue with people who will only invite 210ilvl for normal CN or people who farm +15's to their +9. To me those are just people hoping for a carry and it does nothing to increase the pool of players good enough to do said content.
    Do your own key. It's not like you are going to get same dungeon for 8 times, right?
    I mean you are talking like joining someones group is the only thing possible in WoW.

    Join a community
    Join a group
    Join a guild
    Assemble your own pugs
    Suggest people to do some more keys after successful run.

    Current situation is very simple supply and demand situation. It's very easy to find people to play with if you actually want to do something instead of acting like you are entitled to pugs you wish to join. Also know as - people who actually do something instead of complaining.
    Last edited by erifwodahs; 2021-05-30 at 01:06 AM.

  16. #1356
    Free Food!?!?! Tziva's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goatfish View Post
    "Not going to happen in reality", so apparently I'm a liar for no apparent reason. It's one heck of a story to make up just for kicks, but believe what you want.
    Man, you need to take a step back, you are taking this way too personal and getting way too upset.

    You said you linked a DD achievement because someone asked for you to link something, fine, I'm not calling you a liar on that. I'm saying the situation where someone is evaluating who to invite to a key by choosing between a heroic dungeon achievement and an ancient feat of strength isn't something that happens. There is a lot of other criteria (that is actually relevant) people are looking at, but neither of those achievements are one of them. That doesn't mean no one has ever asked for an achievement link ever in the history of keys. Someone tossed you a bone on your lack of experience and asked for that in case you had something they found relevant. I'm sorry they laughed at you over an achievement you are probably rightly proud of, but that doesn't mean there are groups out there choosing between server first achievements and heroic dungeon completion achievements for invites, because there aren't. The overwhelming majority groups don't ask for achievements at all and will eat my hat if the situation of someone comparing a heroic dungeon to a realm first feat and then inviting the heroic dungeon person has ever happened. The reality is groups are looking at comp, and score, and ilvl, and they aren't going to give any shit about achievements that aren't relevant to the content they are doing, which neither of those examples are.

    Your Death's Demise is an impressive feat and it might be something I'd look at if I was building a long term raiding team as someone who has very high potential, but it has absolutely zero relevance in keystones.

    As far as mechanics being obvious or not, in lower keys many of these mechanics get off anyway and there is plenty of opportunity to learn, and a good player will learn and adapt quickly. I mean it took me one time seeing "Drain Fluids" in Necrotic Wake to understand it had priority kick/kill target. The same goes for any other ability that inconveniences the group in any way. An old achievement of that magnitude is also a sign that I've played enough to know what other classes can do or not do and how to interact with a group and change strategies based off what tank, healer, or dps I might have.
    Yeah, Drain Fluids is obvious, in part because it's also one of only two casts in those pulls that even can be interrupted and you only have to be targeted by it once to know what it does. It's easy to point out the things are are intuitive and quick to be figured out, but that doesn't change the amount that not everything is that way. There are trash abilities that if they get off at all will wipe the party, and groups can't afford to have one get off even once even if that once is all it takes for someone to learn it. Being a good player does not automatically mean you can discern the kill order, interrupt order, etc, consistently and reliably and fast enough for it not to negatively impact a group. It doesn't mean you automatically know the standard route groups take, or the strategies they use on a particular fight.

    If the argument you're trying to make is that experience isn't valuable enough that people should invite off of it, I'm going to disagree and I think pretty much anyone else who pugs keys a lot would also. Experience is literally everything.

    There are enough mechanics that are screwed up even by people who have seen them a hundred times that an adaptive player is always better than one who has experience.
    This isn't the argument for inviting an inexperienced person you think it is.

    First, this is a false dichotomy, there are plenty of players who are both. Second, there's no way to discern who is an "adaptive player" when doing invites. People invite off of the data they have available to them which is name things like class, ilvl, experience level. Finally, the fact that even experienced players mess something up a lot is evidence to me that whatever that particular mechanic happens to be is either unintuitive or complex enough that I'm definitely not going to gamble with someone who doesn't even have a foundation of experience. "Experienced people mess up a lot, therefore invite unexperienced people" is not a compelling argument.

    The issues you are bringing up are literally noob mistakes such as dps pulling mobs instead of the tank or having 0 situational awareness.
    No, in fact I feel confident saying that not a single thing I've brought up boils down to DPS pulling mobs instead of tanks or having no situational awareness.

    Also, I don't know what your criteria for a "noob" is but to me, that word refers to someone who is new and unfamiliar with the content. That would exactly describe someone who is first jumping into keystones who has no experience in them, and the kind of hypothetical people you're suggesting should be getting invited because they did something cool over a decade ago?

    I have never been talking about doing high keys, that is a straw man you and others on this thread have constantly been bringing up in an attempt to prove me "wrong" even though that has never been the subject I've been talking about. You can keep pretending I'm arguing for inviting fresh 60's with old achievements to M15+'s or Mythic Nathria, but that has never been the case and you are wrong to make that argument.
    I didn't make that argument, anywhere. I have no idea what key level you were talking about, and I literally phrased everything in my post to account for that.

    You're just getting offended to get offended at this point, because you're reacting to things that weren't said or even implied.

    I will say, thanks for agreeing that people need to get experience in the dungeon itself in order to obtain that experience. This is my biggest argument. You can't learn to heal a +15 by constantly doing M0's or even M5's.
    No, but you can learn to heal a 14, which you learned to heal by healing a 13, which you learned by healing a 12, etc. This isn't some crazy unrealistic plan; this is literally how we all did it.

    I'm not saying the climb is easy and fast -- it isn't, especially if you're dps -- but if you're doing it, then you will have actual criteria to show to support your appropriateness for that content besides a fourteen year old feat of strength. The problems arise when someone tries to skip ahead and jump into a key level that they don't have the appropriate experience for.

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  17. #1357
    Bloodsail Admiral Goatfish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tziva View Post
    Man, you need to take a step back, you are taking this way too personal and getting way too upset.
    If you are imagining that I am upset, you are wrong. Maybe you need to quit arguing with someone who isn't me and we can have a conversation, because the image you have in your mind is definitely inaccurate if you believe this.

    You said you linked a DD achievement because someone asked for you to link something, fine, I'm not calling you a liar on that. I'm saying the situation where someone is evaluating who to invite to a key by choosing between a heroic dungeon achievement and an ancient feat of strength isn't something that happens. There is a lot of other criteria (that is actually relevant) people are looking at, but neither of those achievements are one of them. That doesn't mean no one has ever asked for an achievement link ever in the history of keys. Someone tossed you a bone on your lack of experience and asked for that in case you had something they found relevant. I'm sorry they laughed at you over an achievement you are probably rightly proud of, but that doesn't mean there are groups out there choosing between server first achievements and heroic dungeon completion achievements for invites, because there aren't. The overwhelming majority groups don't ask for achievements at all and will eat my hat if the situation of someone comparing a heroic dungeon to a realm first feat and then inviting the heroic dungeon person has ever happened. The reality is groups are looking at comp, and score, and ilvl, and they aren't going to give any shit about achievements that aren't relevant to the content they are doing, which neither of those examples are.
    This is why I asked the question, if my choice of current achievements is old achievements that prove I can play the game itself, or new achievements that prove I am a warm body that can roll my face on the keys... Honestly this is getting out of hand because people on this forum have way too big of an issue with my actions on an event that obviously happens very rarely. I never said it was common, but I did say that it was ridiculous to get laughed at for. Apparently that makes me some sort of entitled and elitist child. Sure I could have linked nothing and moved on to find a different group, instead I linked that, got told it meant nothing, and then moved on and found a different group. Sue me for telling a story I guess.

    There are trash abilities that if they get off at all will wipe the party, and groups can't afford to have one get off even once even if that once is all it takes for someone to learn it.
    Name one. If nothing else, almost every spec has an interrupt, so the chance of being the one person who wipes a group by missing an interrupt is so low it's moot. Again, I've met plenty of people who stroll through keys without a single interrupt because other people just always handle it for them. I joined a pug for a few dungeons the other night where the bear tank we were running with was new and didn't even have skull bash bound for the first 2 dungeons and it was unnoticeable.
    If the argument you're trying to make is that experience isn't valuable enough that people should invite off of it, I'm going to disagree and I think pretty much anyone else who pugs keys a lot would also. Experience is literally everything.
    My argument is that purely inviting people that are overqualified is antithetical to creating a more qualified player base as a whole. I don't understand what is so hard to understand about this. As I said in my original post on this topic, the difference in ilvl is negligible if people know how to play. Someone can be 215 and pull numbers worse than someone at 185, I've seen it happen a lot. This is why I invite people who are within reasonable gear range and it often goes well, but inviting people purely off big ilvl or RIO numbers is just giving you a teddy bear to cling to in order to hopefully scare off bad players. Maybe it works more often than it doesn't, either way, it doesn't matter to me. You are the one taking it personally that I have issue with your lord and savior add-on.

    First, this is a false dichotomy, there are plenty of players who are both. Second, there's no way to discern who is an "adaptive player" when doing invites. People invite off of the data they have available to them which is name things like class, ilvl, experience level. Finally, the fact that even experienced players mess something up a lot is evidence to me that whatever that particular mechanic happens to be is either unintuitive or complex enough that I'm definitely not going to gamble with someone who doesn't even have a foundation of experience. "Experienced people mess up a lot, therefore invite unexperienced people" is not a compelling argument.
    You shouldn't use words to which you don't know the meaning. It's entirely possible that there are high RIO or ilvl players that are great, and low RIO or ilvl players that are garbage. I never once disputed this fact. This is why my posting on this topic included that I would rather have an add-on that uses aggregate data on performance rather than what we have. Avoidable damage meters for instance, if someone averages 400k damage taken to volcanic over 15 dungeons, then maybe we don't want to bring them into groups on volcanic weeks during important keys. If someone hasn't interrupted one spell over 20 dungeons, maybe we shouldn't rely on them for interrupts.

    No, in fact I feel confident saying that not a single thing I've brought up boils down to DPS pulling mobs instead of tanks or having no situational awareness.

    Also, I don't know what your criteria for a "noob" is but to me, that word refers to someone who is new and unfamiliar with the content. That would exactly describe someone who is first jumping into keystones who has no experience in them, and the kind of hypothetical people you're suggesting should be getting invited because they did something cool over a decade ago?
    I would consider the word almost jokingly to people new to content, and in the case of what I referenced, people new to the game or group content period. I don't know where people like you get off on trying to imply that I feel entitled to anything. I told a story about how I got laughed at for a respectable achievement and immediately went on with my life and found a different group when denied. It wasn't the end of the world and it's the party leaders choice to invite me or not. Maybe you should stop feeling so entitled to judge others to be the monster you want to attack?


    No, but you can learn to heal a 14, which you learned to heal by healing a 13, which you learned by healing a 12, etc. This isn't some crazy unrealistic plan; this is literally how we all did it.
    Where have I ever said anything different? I honestly don't understand your problem. I've explicitly stated that I'm not talking about inviting fresh 60's to high keys or skipping content. What exactly is your problem and why are you attacking me? Is this a reading comprehension issue? Is English not your first language? I feel like there is some sort of communication barrier because we agree far more than we disagree and for some reason you are still trying to portray me as some sort of entitled prick who feels I should be guaranteed invites to whatever I want.

  18. #1358
    Free Food!?!?! Tziva's Avatar
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    If you interpret debating your points politely is "attacking" you or calling you an entitled prick, then I dont know how you can sincerely claim to not be getting upset. In any case, I will definitely take your advice and end the conversation with you since I don't think this can go anywhere if everything I say is taken as some kind of personal assault on your character. You're the only one that has made any personal attack here.

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  19. #1359
    Bloodsail Admiral Goatfish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tziva View Post
    If you interpret debating your points politely is "attacking" you or calling you an entitled prick, then I dont know how you can sincerely claim to not be getting upset. In any case, I will definitely take your advice and end the conversation with you since I don't think this can go anywhere if everything I say is taken as some kind of personal assault on your character. You're the only one that has made any personal attack here.
    If you consider calling me mad, making wild insinuations about my points, and claiming I am using false dichotomy as some sort of red herring tactic "politely debating my points", then yes, the best thing you can do is end the conversation and probably try not to do the same in any further conversations with others. There is plenty to attack about my opinions, but mostly you called me wrong, built up some fake argument you assigned to me, and then circled back to agree with my initial claims.

  20. #1360
    Tviza is really willing to see the problem from the other side. You are lucky to find someone so understanding to argue around here.
    I wouldn't show so much patience. (You are a bit mad and a bit entitled).

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