Page 69 of 70 FirstFirst ...
19
59
67
68
69
70
LastLast
  1. #1361
    Bloodsail Admiral Goatfish's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    The Stars
    Posts
    1,148
    Quote Originally Posted by Atharaxie View Post
    Tviza is really willing to see the problem from the other side. You are lucky to find someone so understanding to argue around here.
    I wouldn't show so much patience. (You are a bit mad and a bit entitled).
    Explain how they attempted to see anything from the other side? They entered the conversation saying that I was lying and being dismissive. They then doubled down on me being a liar and proceeded to slowly edge towards the argument I've been making for 3 pages, that people need to experience content in order to experience content. Let me break it down as easily as possible for you.

    My points:
    1: Returning players with extreme difficulty achievements will know the basic mechanics of the game better than the average player and adapt to new mechanics faster.
    2: People need to experience content in order to have experience in the content.
    3: RIO in my experience so far does a very poor job of dividing good from bad players except at the extreme top end of the curve.
    4: The community being unreasonable is a problem, which I attribute to the selfish and instant gratification generation we live in.


    Honestly I'm just confused at what there is even a "debate" over. From my view I just seem to be getting attacked for hating on RIO because many people here seem to like it. The achievement thing is moot, I just thought it was a funny happenstance but people on these forums used that as a lynch pin to attack me about my RIO comments. Every other argument people have attributed to me was never my argument, which you could tell by just reading my posts and not reading what others attributed to me. It's a reading comprehension issue.

    For reference, the counter points I've seen across people:
    1: You shouldn't ever have to give advice or help to other players. (I think this is ridiculous)
    2: RIO isn't perfect but it's the best we have. (I think this is acceptable, but is a defeatist attitude)
    3: Old achievements don't matter at all in current content. (I disagree for the same reason that work experience is a thing)
    4: You need to learn the content before you go to the content. (This is a non sequitur)
    5: Just go find a guild or a premade noob. (Fair enough I guess, good thing we aren't deep into a massive content drought, but I've been working on it since I came back.)
    6: Inflating my argument from talking about someone with little current dungeon experience to someone who has no experience AT ALL, or inflating talking about low keys to talking about +25. (I mean this is just moving the goal posts to attempt to make my argument seem ridiculous, and is obviously malicious.)


    As far as the old achievement thing, look at it as if you were recruiting for raiding. Applicant 1 has 3/10 mythic CN but no previous expansion experience. Applicant 2 is only 6/10 H-CN, but has history of clearing every raid on mythic for the past 5 expansions. I would personally look harder at applicant 2 even though they have no current mythic CN experience. I never said the old achievements mean you know current content, nor that they entitle you to anything.
    Last edited by Goatfish; 2021-05-30 at 06:06 PM.

  2. #1362
    Quote Originally Posted by Goatfish View Post
    Explain how they attempted to see anything from the other side? They entered the conversation saying that I was lying and being dismissive. They then doubled down on me being a liar and proceeded to slowly edge towards the argument I've been making for 3 pages, that people need to experience content in order to experience content. Let me break it down as easily as possible for you.

    My points:
    1: Returning players with extreme difficulty achievements will know the basic mechanics of the game better than the average player and adapt to new mechanics faster.
    2: People need to experience content in order to have experience in the content.
    3: RIO in my experience so far does a very poor job of dividing good from bad players except at the extreme top end of the curve.
    4: The community being unreasonable is a problem, which I attribute to the selfish and instant gratification generation we live in.


    Honestly I'm just confused at what there is even a "debate" over. From my view I just seem to be getting attacked for hating on RIO because many people here seem to like it. The achievement thing is moot, I just thought it was a funny happenstance but people on these forums used that as a lynch pin to attack me about my RIO comments. Every other argument people have attributed to me was never my argument, which you could tell by just reading my posts and not reading what others attributed to me. It's a reading comprehension issue.

    For reference, the counter points I've seen across people:
    1: You shouldn't ever have to give advice or help to other players. (I think this is ridiculous)
    2: RIO isn't perfect but it's the best we have. (I think this is acceptable, but is a defeatist attitude)
    3: Old achievements don't matter at all in current content. (I disagree for the same reason that work experience is a thing)
    4: You need to learn the content before you go to the content. (This is a non sequitur)
    5: Just go find a guild or a premade noob. (Fair enough I guess, good thing we aren't deep into a massive content drought, but I've been working on it since I came back.)
    6: Inflating my argument from talking about someone with little current dungeon experience to someone who has no experience AT ALL, or inflating talking about low keys to talking about +25. (I mean this is just moving the goal posts to attempt to make my argument seem ridiculous, and is obviously malicious.)


    As far as the old achievement thing, look at it as if you were recruiting for raiding. Applicant 1 has 3/10 mythic CN but no previous expansion experience. Applicant 2 is only 6/10 H-CN, but has history of clearing every raid on mythic for the past 5 expansions. I would personally look harder at applicant 2 even though they have no current mythic CN experience. I never said the old achievements mean you know current content, nor that they entitle you to anything.
    What are you trying to prove here? The points don't matter when you have different thesis as the basis of the argument. Tviza is not trying to disprove your points here, he's just explaining calmly how your claim about achievement linking is not relevant as nobody uses heroic plaguefall or DD as the basis for inviting someone to the group. He's not calling you a liar, sure it happened, but it simply bears no relevance to anybody inviting people to the current form of M+.

    So please reiterate your original point and I think people will be all ears. What are you trying to say? I don't think anybody thinks people who've been good at the game get worse and every officer recruiting for a raiding guild should look into past achievements and value them. Keep in mind this is the recruiting phase where the specific tactics/mechanics don't matter and they're looking for a player. However, delving into the dungeon with pugs it's highly likely people will prefer actual experience with said content. Sure, people who're quick to adapt will fare decent enough in lower keys, but the supply of players is so high there's literally no reason for the party leader to run the risk of inviting player with lesser experience in that content. No matter what kind of player he is.

  3. #1363
    Bloodsail Admiral Goatfish's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    The Stars
    Posts
    1,148
    Quote Originally Posted by faunski View Post
    What are you trying to prove here? The points don't matter when you have different thesis as the basis of the argument. Tviza is not trying to disprove your points here, he's just explaining calmly how your claim about achievement linking is not relevant as nobody uses heroic plaguefall or DD as the basis for inviting someone to the group. He's not calling you a liar, sure it happened, but it simply bears no relevance to anybody inviting people to the current form of M+.

    So please reiterate your original point and I think people will be all ears. What are you trying to say? I don't think anybody thinks people who've been good at the game get worse and every officer recruiting for a raiding guild should look into past achievements and value them. Keep in mind this is the recruiting phase where the specific tactics/mechanics don't matter and they're looking for a player. However, delving into the dungeon with pugs it's highly likely people will prefer actual experience with said content. Sure, people who're quick to adapt will fare decent enough in lower keys, but the supply of players is so high there's literally no reason for the party leader to run the risk of inviting player with lesser experience in that content. No matter what kind of player he is.
    His point was to not link anything and just find another group. I was calmly explaining how it IS relevant just in a different manner than what is normally thought of. I laid out my points and all counterpoints listed pretty clearly in the post you replied to, and in bold font no less. You can go back through the last 3 pages and check my work if you desire.

    My very first post was just saying that ilvl and RIO does not guarantee that you will get someone worth a damn except in extreme cases. Case in point, just yesterday I invited a duo queue 215tank/217mage both with KSM for a +12 NW. The tank did not know routes and had issues getting threat, and the mage averaged about 1500-2k dps and stood in everything. Overall, I'm still sitting about 50/50 on people with RIO in the 900-1400 range that can perform, while my 212 mage main (750ish RIO now) doesn't seem to have any issues doing mechanics and avoiding damage while pumping good numbers. There is an old terminology for this "PEBCAK". On the other hand, I've also had people in the 300 RIO range perform wonderfully. Hence my point that what would be nice is something like RIO that uses aggregate data across iterations. The only argument I've heard against it is that 2 runs can vary wildly, but that is irrelevant because the point of using aggregate data is to smooth out those differences as the data pool increases. It's literally the best scientific data collection standard that we can use to find proper means and averages with which to judge. It's what Warcraft Logs uses to rank dps, healing, survivability, kill times, boss difficulty and so on. It's what Simcraft uses to understand your stat values and how to gear.

    It comes with its own set of problems for sure, but it would without a doubt give a more reliable standard to properly measure a person's performance.

    Honestly the biggest thing, is that I have never made any argument for requiring people to invite those with less experience other than that the only way to get those people that experience is by having them do the content. In other words, the people who complain about people not being experienced are not helping the situation if they are not taking the initiative to be a mentor. This also requires those without the experience to be willing and able to learn. If anyone is entitled, it's the people who expect everyone else to magically know everything they know, and if they don't, hoard their knowledge. These are the people who fail the "Sally-Anne" and "Marshmallow Experiment" tests.

  4. #1364
    Quote Originally Posted by Sugarcube View Post
    how do these people even get to 2k rio without knowing that priests can't dispel curses?
    I've said it before and I'll say it again, things like gearscore and r.io don't make the player base collectively better it's purely for gatekeeping.

    Personally i don't care because when I do play im hyper casual but the whole prospect of it makes no sense to me.
    1) Load the amount of weight I would deadlift onto the bench
    2) Unrack
    3) Crank out 15 reps
    4) Be ashamed of constantly skipping leg day

  5. #1365
    The only past fame I consider when choosing someone is proving grounds gold, which still shows up in the dungeon finder and is char specific. Not because it was hard to do (which it wasn't) but it tells you the player at some point in the past took the time to do a solo challenge on the char they are applying with.

  6. #1366
    Quote Originally Posted by Twdft View Post
    The only past fame I consider when choosing someone is proving grounds gold, which still shows up in the dungeon finder and is char specific. Not because it was hard to do (which it wasn't) but it tells you the player at some point in the past took the time to do a solo challenge on the char they are applying with.
    I've always found it curious that an achievement from what is now 3 whole expansions in the past shows up on your dungeon finder queue.

  7. #1367
    Free Food!?!?! Tziva's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Cretaceous Period
    Posts
    21,644
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    I've always found it curious that an achievement from what is now 3 whole expansions in the past shows up on your dungeon finder queue.
    This is a sincere question because I don't think I did it again after doing all the achievements in Mists and genuinely don't know: are they not updating Proving Grounds' level for each expansion, like Brawler's Guild kind of thing? I assumed the achievement was something you could still get as current content, just never looked into it because, yknow, it was something I did in 2013.

    (does Shadowlands have a new Brawler's Guild? Maybe I'm just making assumptions here about all of this)

    If they're not, it definitely is still weird that it shows on every signup. I've played the same two characters since classic, but I think I'm an outlier and most people swap pretty regularly and might not have it because they're playing something different than they played back then.

    for moderation questions/concerns, please contact a global:

    TzivaRadux SimcaElysiaZaelsinoxskarmaVenara

    | youtube | twitch | twitter |


  8. #1368
    Quote Originally Posted by Tziva View Post
    are they not updating Proving Grounds' level for each expansion, like Brawler's Guild kind of thing? I assumed the achievement was something you could still get as current content, just never looked into it because, yknow, it was something I did in 2013.
    You can still go in there and do the achievements, it's scaled to your level. Probably easiest if you have some azerite armor on your toon, ilvl itself doesn't matter. Classes have changed quite a bit since MoP too so dps checks might be easier.

    But still, you will have to interupt and CC some of the mobs. I think proving grounds gold says way more about skill then some old raid achievement 19 other people helped you get.

  9. #1369
    Please wait Temp name's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Under construction
    Posts
    13,972
    Quote Originally Posted by Goatfish View Post
    An old achievement of that magnitude is also a sign that I've played enough to know what other classes can do or not do and how to interact with a group and change strategies based off what tank, healer, or dps I might have.
    It's a sign that you knew that stuff *TWELVE YEARS* ago. Classes have gained a lot of utility, some have lost utility, and none of them play the same. What you did literally 6 expansions ago matters fuck all

  10. #1370
    Epic! Alroxas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Hall of the Guardians
    Posts
    1,669
    Quote Originally Posted by thunderdragon2 View Post
    think of it more like not engaging in battle, like in bgs if you aren't engaged in the fighting you are flagged as afk and that means the current fight thats happen you just cant engaged any mob to avoid the trigger
    Which then either means the player does the bare minimum: Tag once every 15s but only then OR more degenerate gameplay aka let me go and pull all the mobs even the ones we don't need.

    And when I say pull, I mean everything from purposely tagging a non-combat mob to just poor positioning so that a patrol just happens to aggro or a knockback /fear effect from the current pack sends the player right into another pack.

    No system is going to be able to tell the difference.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Goatfish View Post
    If someone wants me to link an achievement to prove I am not bad
    Achievements are crap. See fake achievement addon. R.io can be misleading because boosting services out there. You want a good metric? Show just how many dungeons you've done in time in XYZ brackets (i.e Under +10s, From +10 to +14s, +15s, From +16s to +19s, +20s, etc).

    Over 20 in the current bracket you're looking (e.g. if looking for members in a +15 group, check for how many +15s done in time) for is likely a solid player without considerations of class utility. Folks going after KSM (or boosting to KSM) won't do more than +5 over the current number of dungeons (which is currently 8).

    Anyone under 20s represents a risk but that's fine too if the number of dungeons completed in time for the bracket immediately below the one you're at also over 20s. That shows that at the minimum, the player has some degree of experience and has successfully timed dungeons at a lower level.

    Is this system foolproof? No. It can however, minimize risk of a run going poorly.

    But how do new (or returning) players get there? You have keys too so be the group leader. You can opt to use the metrics I laid out above or your own. But you're not being declined when you're the group leader. Now whether you get applicants... that's up to you.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Thetruth1400 View Post
    A few potential solutions I could think of honestly.

    1) Improve the matchmaking system and put a hidden SSR rating based on what you have completed, your ilvl, and how well you do comparatively to others of the same spec as you. Then when you enter the dungeon queue, it tries to put you in a similar skill level group and tells you, "Hey, this group can probably only manage a +7."
    First there is no matchmaking system for M+. Just like there is no matchmaking system for Normal+ raids. These determinations are made by players because there are intangibles that an automated system can't do.

    For instance, on a storming week, do you really want ALL melee? especially in dungeons of limited space (i.e. Sanguine Depths)? No you don't so you don't let an automated system matchmake groups. LFD/LFR only works in automation because the bar of difficulty is so low.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thetruth1400 View Post
    2) The carrot approach. Make the rewards for finishing a dungeon more valuable to the point people want to stay in them. It could be simple as a little extra Valor for completing a dungeon that you don't time.
    Unlikely to work, because if the group can't even defeat the first boss of a dungeon (or first mini-boss of a dungeon) because of low DPS or fundamental failure of mechanics. It doesn't mater if the finishing will reward you with 10k valor if the group literally can't do finish it. Moreover, some players have lower tolerances of patience. A player may only have X hours to play per day and they want those hours to be as productive as possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thetruth1400 View Post
    3) The stick approach. Make an ever increasing timer for people who leave before a dungeon timer runs out that blocks them from entering dungeons. 1 hr, 2 hr, 4 hrs, 8 hrs, etc. doubling every time. If you leave 10 dungeons before the timer is up, you're essentially locked out of dungeons for 3 weeks. If you want to leave after the timer has expired but before the dungeon is finished, a simple 30 minute lockout should suffice.
    Again such a BAD system because the players who want to leave, they'll just screw around to force someone else to leave. Or they will take a degenerate gameplay approach to make the experience even worse for the players who remain.

    For instance, let's say there is this timer debuff and Bob wants to leave but doesn't want the debuff. So instead, Bob decides I'm going to screw with the group. Pull that extra pack over there causing a wipe. Accidentally stand in the front of the Death Speaker in DOS so that they get knocked off the platform (as a tank or a healer) leading to a wipe. Now you're in this group with Bob as well. How much of this crap are you willing to put up with instead of just leaving and remember if you leave first you get the debuff.

    But isn't that trolling/griefing? Sure if you can prove that Bob intentionally did those things. It could also be that Bob is a lousy wow player and plays poorly.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Goatfish View Post
    Maybe I'm in the minority in thinking that the mechanics in these dungeons are pretty obvious
    It's not just mechanics of the dungeon but also understanding and exploiting the affixes to provide the most benefit in time reduction.

    Now we don't need to go into MDI (or the Great Push) level strategies (i.e. plaguebore snapping to kill trash and boss) but there are some like routing and kill counts at specific points to get Prideful leading into bosses.

    Even raging affix can be turned into the player's favor by allowing adds that can flip to your side (i.e. Loyal Stoneborn) to be DPS down to trigger that affix then turning them to your side.
    ---
    Don't be a victim of IFOWISNAWL!
    Call 800-Calm-The-F-Down, Operators are standing by. Now taking calls on all your Legion worries.

  11. #1371
    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    Which then either means the player does the bare minimum: Tag once every 15s but only then OR more degenerate gameplay aka let me go and pull all the mobs even the ones we don't need.

    And when I say pull, I mean everything from purposely tagging a non-combat mob to just poor positioning so that a patrol just happens to aggro or a knockback /fear effect from the current pack sends the player right into another pack.

    No system is going to be able to tell the difference.
    i doubt any1 would actually do that as its a waste of their time and money, they would need to be EXTREAMLY sad to want to wait all of their own money on repairs and time just to screw over 4 individuals and if they are that sad they should be banned from play in anyway we have got to the point where blizzard need to step in and fix this mess

  12. #1372
    Epic! Alroxas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Hall of the Guardians
    Posts
    1,669
    Quote Originally Posted by Goatfish View Post
    My points:
    1: Returning players with extreme difficulty achievements will know the basic mechanics of the game better than the average player and adapt to new mechanics faster.
    2: People need to experience content in order to have experience in the content.
    3: RIO in my experience so far does a very poor job of dividing good from bad players except at the extreme top end of the curve.
    4: The community being unreasonable is a problem, which I attribute to the selfish and instant gratification generation we live in.
    1. Currently there is no system to distinguish a returning player from a new player let alone, a returning experienced player from a returning inexperienced player.
    2. True but the issue at hand is you can get experience on your own time and not on "mine". It's very much like the real world where jobs want prior experience for the position they are offering. Essentially, we want experienced with the current system and if you don't have it, then you need to earn that experience first then join the rest of us.
    2a. In accordance with having to earn the experience first, that's why many of us provide the tip: Make your own groups. This way you can get the experience and be in relative control of whom you want in your groups. Maybe you want to play mentor so you'll just invite the first 4 people that apply regardless of ilv, r.io score or achievements. For the rest of us, we like to use some sort of metric to help minimize risk of a poor or incomplete run.
    3. That's more on how players use r.io than the system itself. As we've seen on the PTR, M+ score is coming in 9.1 and the same negative arguments against r.io will be shifted over to M+ score once we get to 9.1 and beyond.
    4. Good luck in changing the community. I'm pretty sure they are set in their ways and are unlikely to change in any meaningful way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Goatfish View Post
    For reference, the counter points I've seen across people:
    1: You shouldn't ever have to give advice or help to other players. (I think this is ridiculous)
    2: RIO isn't perfect but it's the best we have. (I think this is acceptable, but is a defeatist attitude)
    3: Old achievements don't matter at all in current content. (I disagree for the same reason that work experience is a thing)
    4: You need to learn the content before you go to the content. (This is a non sequitur)
    5: Just go find a guild or a premade noob. (Fair enough I guess, good thing we aren't deep into a massive content drought, but I've been working on it since I came back.)
    6: Inflating my argument from talking about someone with little current dungeon experience to someone who has no experience AT ALL, or inflating talking about low keys to talking about +25. (I mean this is just moving the goal posts to attempt to make my argument seem ridiculous, and is obviously malicious.)
    1. Players don't have an obligation to be teachers/mentors. Sure it could be nice, but that's not their role. That's why we have a new guide system in WoW. You want teachers/mentors then start your search there.
    3. Old achievements also don't matter in current because it's no longer current (and outdated). If you compare any raid encounter from Classic at the highest difficulty of Classic and compare it to say the mechanics of Mythic Denathrius, you can easily see how much more difficult current content is. In fact, there's an article write up somewhere a healer (I think) posted about how much WoW has evolved in fight mechanics to the point where DBM/BigWigs is absolutely necessary because of so many mechanics to keep track of.
    4. It's not that you need to learn the content before you go do the content but rather learn the content on someone else's time instead of mine.
    5. If you want supportive of players then your best avenue to find it is within a guild or a community of like-minded players. You're not likely going to find that in a PuG.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by thunderdragon2 View Post
    i doubt any1 would actually do that as its a waste of their time and money, they would need to be EXTREAMLY sad to want to wait all of their own money on repairs and time just to screw over 4 individuals and if they are that sad they should be banned from play in anyway we have got to the point where blizzard need to step in and fix this mess
    Oh my poor child, google EU Venthyr Warrior from Draenor who purposely quits M+ dungeons after starting the key.

    But honestly, the issue at hand isn't that the behavior stems from wanting to avoid the penalty by playing in such a way to force someone else to leave first to get the penalty.

    Some would argue that it's a waste of their time to try to carry a group who has no ability to get through this dungeon at X level with the affixes. Like a group that got to a higher key on a fortified week only to discover they can't pass the muster the following week because Tyrannical demands so much more of them.
    ---
    Don't be a victim of IFOWISNAWL!
    Call 800-Calm-The-F-Down, Operators are standing by. Now taking calls on all your Legion worries.

  13. #1373
    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    Oh my poor child, google EU Venthyr Warrior from Draenor who purposely quits M+ dungeons after starting the key.

    But honestly, the issue at hand isn't that the behavior stems from wanting to avoid the penalty by playing in such a way to force someone else to leave first to get the penalty.

    Some would argue that it's a waste of their time to try to carry a group who has no ability to get through this dungeon at X level with the affixes. Like a group that got to a higher key on a fortified week only to discover they can't pass the muster the following week because Tyrannical demands so much more of them.
    i didn't google that, also if all ae in consensus that they cant proceed, the leader would have the ability to prompt and abandonment check, of which all member need to agree to if it passes the grp is instantly disbanded and no penalty is given.

    and its possible that people feel that ppl may not want to "boost" other through a key but more times than not its the "boosted" person that whims and leaves as the key isn't going as smooth as they are use to, also "boosted" player are "normally" the worst ones in the grp

  14. #1374
    Quote Originally Posted by willtron View Post
    I've said it before and I'll say it again, things like gearscore and r.io don't make the player base collectively better it's purely for gatekeeping.

    Personally i don't care because when I do play im hyper casual but the whole prospect of it makes no sense to me.
    How is purely for gatekeeping, when the main point of it is to have a better chance to select better candidates for your runs?

    Yessss Yesss, poeple can buy it and everyone in this forum has seen a 2k rio player play worse than a 1.2k player and people with no rio and 200ilvl doing more dmg than people with 220ilvl.

    Now go do statistics on how many people suck in 0-1.5k bracket per capita and how many people are booster in 2k+ score per capita.

  15. #1375
    Bloodsail Admiral Goatfish's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    The Stars
    Posts
    1,148
    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    1. Currently there is no system to distinguish a returning player from a new player let alone, a returning experienced player from a returning inexperienced player.
    2. True but the issue at hand is you can get experience on your own time and not on "mine". It's very much like the real world where jobs want prior experience for the position they are offering. Essentially, we want experienced with the current system and if you don't have it, then you need to earn that experience first then join the rest of us.
    2a. In accordance with having to earn the experience first, that's why many of us provide the tip: Make your own groups. This way you can get the experience and be in relative control of whom you want in your groups. Maybe you want to play mentor so you'll just invite the first 4 people that apply regardless of ilv, r.io score or achievements. For the rest of us, we like to use some sort of metric to help minimize risk of a poor or incomplete run.
    3. That's more on how players use r.io than the system itself. As we've seen on the PTR, M+ score is coming in 9.1 and the same negative arguments against r.io will be shifted over to M+ score once we get to 9.1 and beyond.
    4. Good luck in changing the community. I'm pretty sure they are set in their ways and are unlikely to change in any meaningful way.
    1: Old achievements, Warcraft Logs, WoW Armory. The systems are there but aren't used because they aren't convenient in a queue, which again, being able to differentiate or be guaranteed an invite was never my argument.
    2: Is the selfish attitude I was talking about. "I'm better so none of my dungeons should ever fail and I shouldn't have to teach or help anyone ever." Not every dungeon is a do or die situation where you specifically need to time it. If you are using pugging as an effort to push your own keys to high levels, you really should get a solid group instead.
    3/4: Where have I said that I want to change it? I'm merely calling it out for what it is, because if people want to change it, they have to be the change.


    1. Players don't have an obligation to be teachers/mentors. Sure it could be nice, but that's not their role. That's why we have a new guide system in WoW. You want teachers/mentors then start your search there.
    3. Old achievements also don't matter in current because it's no longer current (and outdated). If you compare any raid encounter from Classic at the highest difficulty of Classic and compare it to say the mechanics of Mythic Denathrius, you can easily see how much more difficult current content is. In fact, there's an article write up somewhere a healer (I think) posted about how much WoW has evolved in fight mechanics to the point where DBM/BigWigs is absolutely necessary because of so many mechanics to keep track of.
    4. It's not that you need to learn the content before you go do the content but rather learn the content on someone else's time instead of mine.
    5. If you want supportive of players then your best avenue to find it is within a guild or a community of like-minded players. You're not likely going to find that in a PuG.
    1: They aren't required, but if people spend their time complaining about how bad pugs are instead of spending that same amount of time helping them... They are only making things worse for everyone. Some people pick up litter on the street when they see it, and others just walk past. If nobody picks up the litter, then we are going to be in a trash heap.
    3: It depends on the achievement honestly. M'uru from Sunwell, Yogg+0 in Ulduar, H-Putricide and H-LK from ICC or even Mythic Cenarius/Xavius were way tougher than really anything I have seen in CN so far, granted I haven't stepped into mythic CN yet. Again though, you are one of those people comparing the extremes of an argument no one ever made. If someone is 197 ilvl with no experience in N-CN, there is no real reason why they shouldn't get an invite unless you are selfishly looking for an anima farm run. It's entirely possible to purposefully bring 1-5 in your raid pug to help get them that experience as well. I'm not saying it's required, but it helps the pug community as a whole get better players, and helps motivate those with a will to get better to do so.
    4: refer to answer 1.
    5: refer to answer 1.

  16. #1376
    Quote Originally Posted by Goatfish View Post
    1: They aren't required, but if people spend their time complaining about how bad pugs are instead of spending that same amount of time helping them... They are only making things worse for everyone. Some people pick up litter on the street when they see it, and others just walk past. If nobody picks up the litter, then we are going to be in a trash heap..
    The only ones who complain about "bad pugs" are one or more of the following:

    1. People that are unable to use the available tools to select which groups to join or which people to invite to your group.
    2. People that are entitled and lack self-awareness. They expect other players to carry them and get very angry when better players won't play with them or when they get in to a group that doesn't fit their entitled view of themselves.
    3. People that before had it much easier to "trick" their way in to groups with much more experienced people and thereby get carried. With the advent of good tools like logs and raider.io and the increasing awareness amongst the players that care about their performance and who respect the time of their fellow gamer about the pitfalls of playing with entitled people the leeches have it much more difficult today.

    People that don't complain about "bad pugs" usually fit all of the following criteria:

    1. People who are able to judge the quality of the groups they join and the applicants to their own group.
    2. People who are self-aware and who play with people with similar experience and goals, even in pugs.
    3. People who care about their performance and respect the time of their fellow gamer and who, even in pugs, play with people of a similar mind-set

    It is not my "job" as a player that cares about my performance and who respects the time of my fellow gamer to teach anyone anything.
    Any person who is self-aware and has the absolute minimum of social and in-game skills will recognize that he has to learn for himself and acquire experience for himself. And such a person will start to play with people on his own level and work his way up.
    If you are very skilled then that "climb" can be done very fast.

    So to sum it up:
    If you consistently get bad pugs then it is 100% a YOU-problem.

  17. #1377
    Epic! Alroxas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Hall of the Guardians
    Posts
    1,669
    Quote Originally Posted by Goatfish View Post
    2: Is the selfish attitude I was talking about. "I'm better so none of my dungeons should ever fail and I shouldn't have to teach or help anyone ever." Not every dungeon is a do or die situation where you specifically need to time it. If you are using pugging as an effort to push your own keys to high levels, you really should get a solid group instead.
    And again I would underscore the importance that not ever PuG is supposed to be a teaching/mentoring resource. The baseline in a PuG is that there is a common goal which is typically to finish the dungeon in time. That expects that each PuG member is prepared, skilled and experienced.

    Like many others have said, we're not opposed to learning PuGs or teaching PuGs. Instead what we are opposed to is converting all our PuG runs into a teaching runs.

    If anything, if you want to as a group leader, you can advertise your own runs as "learning" or teaching and nobody here would fault you for it. Because it's your personal led run. But to expect other group leaders to do the same is a fallacy. In general, most people who are doing keys want players that are skilled and experienced in the current M+ content. Knowing the strategies/routes/tips/tricks ahead of time and the best way to accumulate that knowledge is to do a lot of dungeons.

    Sure some players might pick up the knowledge and skills faster than others but there's no way to measure potential player ability. So we fall on what has been achieved already by examining player progression so far such as r.io (and in 9.1, M+ score).



    Quote Originally Posted by Goatfish View Post
    1: They aren't required, but if people spend their time complaining about how bad pugs are instead of spending that same amount of time helping them... They are only making things worse for everyone. Some people pick up litter on the street when they see it, and others just walk past. If nobody picks up the litter, then we are going to be in a trash heap.
    Perhaps, but isn't there already people who "pick up trash"? Sanitation workers? Janitors? Conversely, there are communities for which their primary goal is to help teach players. See for instance, Mythic Plus Friends (http://www.mythicplusfriends.website/) and their discord community.


    Quote Originally Posted by Goatfish View Post
    3: It depends on the achievement honestly. M'uru from Sunwell, Yogg+0 in Ulduar, H-Putricide and H-LK from ICC or even Mythic Cenarius/Xavius were way tougher than really anything I have seen in CN so far, granted I haven't stepped into mythic CN yet.
    The other problem with old achievements is that it's also kinda moot. For instance, I could go right now on my level 60 and get Yogg+0 without a problem. Because I greatly outlevel that content. You would need to somehow check old achievements with the time frame (aka earn when they were relevant) to even be worthwhile.

    As for compare contrast: Let's take Yogg vs Denathrius -

    For Yogg, wowhead puts up about a paragraph of mechanics? (https://www.wowhead.com/ulduar-achie...net-yogg-saron)

    versus

    Mythic Denathrius - (https://www.wowhead.com/guides/mythi...thria-strategy)

    Several pages plus images plus changes/assignments. Granted there's also a section on loot tables but even so, it's still a much more mechanics heavy fight than Yogg.



    Point being that modern wow is more complex than classic wow's content. Skills/knowledge of Heroic Halls of Reflection don't necessarily equate to the skill/knowledge needed in say +10 Sanguine Depths on a Tyrannical, Raging, Quaking, Prideful affix week. Sure some skills come in handy like LoS pulls but invis pots? Route planning to grab extra mobs to allow for prideful right before the Tyrannical bosses, there's no older content equivalence.
    ---
    Don't be a victim of IFOWISNAWL!
    Call 800-Calm-The-F-Down, Operators are standing by. Now taking calls on all your Legion worries.

  18. #1378
    Old achievements don't tell you anything about a player's current skill for several reasons.
    1. The game has changed sufficiently in complexity and difficulty that the skills used to get those achievements are not necessarily applicable today
    2. If you haven't been playing in the interim at the same level, then it is likely those skills (insofar as they are relevant) have atrophied. I am nowhere near as good at Halo, CTR as I was when I played them everyday however many years ago. The same is true of WoW
    3. Experience, rather than skill, is king. Not experience of past dungeons or raids, but rather the content you are doing now. Its not enough to have done dungeons on M0 and say that is good enough to know the mechanics. There are mechanics you barely notice at 18+ which become lethal at 21+. People want experience relevant to the content they are doing. No matter how good you are, if you don't have the relevant experience you will almost certainly be worse than someone with that experience.

  19. #1379
    I never liked a timed system to begin with. Even in the early stages people would rage cause stuff didn't go perfect. And a few runs past timer plenty of deaths and everyone had more fun just trying to enjoy a harder dungeon.

    Give people a stacking deserter penalty. Vote option to give up maybe and save the key on a CD.
    "I'm Tru @ w/e I do" ~ TM

  20. #1380
    How about just letting people get replaced within a dungeon? Sure it would help boosters, but it would allow leavers to be replaced. The timer could pause the second a person leaves and would start again once the group is full again.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •