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  1. #1
    I am Murloc! Velshin's Avatar
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    Solution for M+ leavers....

    Beware this is a ranting topic:

    I used to be a semi hardcore WoW player but now I am a casual with just item lvl 203 main character.

    I make sure to do M+10 every week once for at least the weekly.

    My current guild is semi hardcore mythic raiding that I used to raid with them for years but now I just do with them some alt runs heroic raiding and normal mode can't raid mythic with them anymore.


    Yesterday I decided to do my weekly M+10 key with 3 of my friends and one PUG warlock with item lvl 209 and raider io 900+

    We did plaguefall dungeon we reached the first boss then the warlock decided no to dodge the basic simple breath cone of the boss and died. First time he apologized then we wiped, I didn't say anything then it happens three times the same issue. Then he said "fk this" then left.... I mean the key was already ruined since we wiped three times because of him....so why the dick move and leaving like that is just beyond me....


    I never ever like to go with pugs really but sometimes I have no choice because my current guild is busy doing 15+ mythic keys and mythic raiding sometimes they do alt run joining my 10 keys but yeah it is not always. Sometimes I have to pug one player or two then this shit happens...


    There has to be a solution for players like that who are purposely ruining other players keys...

  2. #2
    Free Food!?!?! Tziva's Avatar
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    There isn't an easy fix or it probably would have been implemented already.

    Any kind of automated system that would punish people for leaving, would also inadvertently punish innocent people as well or cause other repercussions by people refusing to leave to avoid punishment. Just to use your example, say the warlock would get penalised somehow for leaving so instead he decides to just /dance at the entrance instead and go make himself a sandwich. Now the rest of you are hostage because if you leave, you'll get punished for what is essentially not your fault.

    Leaver penalties may work in other games, but with the way WoW and m+ are designed, you can't really automate a fix for this that isn't going to punish innocents in addition to the people being malicious, or otherwise be exploited or result in modified (but not improved) behaviour.

    I think the best approach involves actual human review and decisions on some level, whether it is reporting those people to blizzard (and hoping they take action against habitual offenders) or screening pugs better and hoping you don't get unlucky.

    I'm not going to tell you not to PuG because I know that isn't always a viable option for people as someone who PuGs a lot myself. But I would recommend doing things like investigating m+ focused community groups and discords, and being clear in your group listings ("trying to time but will complete if not") to try to make sure everyone is on the same page to try to limit the likelihood as much as possible.

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  3. #3
    Warchief Rusken's Avatar
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    It is a huge dick move. I had a similar situation in the last Tyrannical week. +9 Plaguefall, full guild group with 1 pug Mage. We were on the last boss and the Mage was repeatedly getting killed by the tentacle slams, or when he did dodge them he'd blink right into an add and get 2-shot. 4 wipes on the boss (we were on time when we got to her) and he just leaves without saying anything. Leaving the 4 of us with a dead key and no way to kill a Tyrannical boss with 2 DPS.

    I'd like to see a deserter debuff similar to what you get for leaving Battlegrounds or LFG dungeons early. Except instead of a 15 minute lockout, you'd be unable to attempt another M+ for the rest of the day. Call it "Coward's Demise" or something to really make them feel bad.

    This is also why I'm not pugging any keys for the rest of SL at least. People are too quick to give up as soon as something goes wrong.

  4. #4
    Raider IO just shows what people completed.

    What we need is like Yelp reviews for players.

  5. #5
    I am Murloc! Velshin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tziva View Post
    There isn't an easy fix or it probably would have been implemented already.

    Any kind of automated system that would punish people for leaving, would also inadvertently punish innocent people as well or cause other repercussions by people refusing to leave to avoid punishment. Just to use your example, say the warlock would get penalised somehow for leaving so instead he decides to just /dance at the entrance instead and go make himself a sandwich. Now the rest of you are hostage because if you leave, you'll get punished for what is essentially not your fault.

    Leaver penalties may work in other games, but with the way WoW and m+ are designed, you can't really automate a fix for this that isn't going to punish innocents in addition to the people being malicious, or otherwise be exploited or result in modified (but not improved) behaviour.

    I think the best approach involves actual human review and decisions on some level, whether it is reporting those people to blizzard (and hoping they take action against habitual offenders) or screening pugs better and hoping you don't get unlucky.

    I'm not going to tell you not to PuG because I know that isn't always a viable option for people as someone who PuGs a lot myself. But I would recommend doing things like investigating m+ focused community groups and discords, and being clear in your group listings ("trying to time but will complete if not") to try to make sure everyone is on the same page to try to limit the likelihood as much as possible.
    The funny thing is before even pugging that guy I had a feeling that something like that might happen which is why in the description of the premade system of WoW I wrote M+10 please no leavers...but yeah..

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Rusken View Post
    It is a huge dick move. I had a similar situation in the last Tyrannical week. +9 Plaguefall, full guild group with 1 pug Mage. We were on the last boss and the Mage was repeatedly getting killed by the tentacle slams, or when he did dodge them he'd blink right into an add and get 2-shot. 4 wipes on the boss (we were on time when we got to her) and he just leaves without saying anything. Leaving the 4 of us with a dead key and no way to kill a Tyrannical boss with 2 DPS.

    I'd like to see a deserter debuff similar to what you get for leaving Battlegrounds or LFG dungeons early. Except instead of a 15 minute lockout, you'd be unable to attempt another M+ for the rest of the day. Call it "Coward's Demise" or something to really make them feel bad.

    This is also why I'm not pugging any keys for the rest of SL at least. People are too quick to give up as soon as something goes wrong.
    Yeah man tell me about it...I really really hate pugs tbh but god damn sometimes I have no choice really.. I remember sometimes I have to buy a boost ingame (using ingame money gold not real money) not because of me being uncompetant (I am far from being the best player ever but I carry my weight) but just so I can complete the content I am doing without any issues...

  6. #6
    We have this problem since m+ was introduced and if I recall correctly Blizzard sees it as a community problem that they can't fix and the community needs to fix on their own. You can't que for m+ but need to organize your own group so problems in the group need to be resolved in that group. The solution they gave back in Legion was to put people on ignore so that they won't be shown again in the LFG tool.

    With the slow drip of gear and generally harder dungeons (more mechanics you need to pay attention and can't outgear) a lot more people get frustrated and leave dungeons early.

    I had a run where a rogue pulled like 2 additional trash packs and we wiped and he immediatly left the group and we weren't even at the first boss and had plenty of time. I don't think there's a good solution Blizzard could implement because as other said, automated systems can't distinguish between someone who left early because they got frustrated over a wipe or someone who has to leave early because a person just refuses to play and the rest of the group doesn't want to just sit in a dungeon for 30 minutes until the timer runs out.

  7. #7
    I am Murloc! Velshin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lordjust View Post
    We have this problem since m+ was introduced and if I recall correctly Blizzard sees it as a community problem that they can't fix and the community needs to fix on their own. You can't que for m+ but need to organize your own group so problems in the group need to be resolved in that group. The solution they gave back in Legion was to put people on ignore so that they won't be shown again in the LFG tool.

    With the slow drip of gear and generally harder dungeons (more mechanics you need to pay attention and can't outgear) a lot more people get frustrated and leave dungeons early.

    I had a run where a rogue pulled like 2 additional trash packs and we wiped and he immediatly left the group and we weren't even at the first boss and had plenty of time. I don't think there's a good solution Blizzard could implement because as other said, automated systems can't distinguish between someone who left early because they got frustrated over a wipe or someone who has to leave early because a person just refuses to play and the rest of the group doesn't want to just sit in a dungeon for 30 minutes until the timer runs out.
    I will be okay if it was even a hard tough boss mechanic but it was just a simple frontal cone breath that you can easily avoid if you just strafe or just get closer to the boss and side step it easily.

  8. #8
    the most practical solution is to simply put "no leavers/not in time/just for weekly" etc in the description and make sure everybody is on the same page before you start the key.

    on high keys people just leaving instead of first mutually agreeing the key is ruined is rude but not the end of the world, you only do high keys for the sake of doing high keys after all.

    your specific leaver is an entirely different category though, that's just someone whos not having fun, bit off more than he could chew, was having a bad day or something like that. that's just something that's gonna happen once in a blue moon. and you can either accept that it happens once in a while or become someone who doesn't take a chance on people anymore and only invites overqualified people.

    reading between the lines, i think if you had offered this guy help in a friendly tone with how to do the mechanics, he would have stayed. it reads like someone who isn't very confident/good at the game and went for a no leavers group specifically to not get criticized for that, and then after a few wipes he probably felt he was ruining it for everybody and just left, which is where offering him help could make him realize it was fine.
    Last edited by Hellobolis; 2021-01-02 at 09:48 AM.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by ro9ue View Post
    What we need is like Yelp reviews for players.
    We would all have a 1 rating by the end of the month.

  10. #10
    Please wait Temp name's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusken View Post
    It is a huge dick move. I had a similar situation in the last Tyrannical week. +9 Plaguefall, full guild group with 1 pug Mage. We were on the last boss and the Mage was repeatedly getting killed by the tentacle slams, or when he did dodge them he'd blink right into an add and get 2-shot. 4 wipes on the boss (we were on time when we got to her) and he just leaves without saying anything. Leaving the 4 of us with a dead key and no way to kill a Tyrannical boss with 2 DPS.

    I'd like to see a deserter debuff similar to what you get for leaving Battlegrounds or LFG dungeons early. Except instead of a 15 minute lockout, you'd be unable to attempt another M+ for the rest of the day. Call it "Coward's Demise" or something to really make them feel bad.

    This is also why I'm not pugging any keys for the rest of SL at least. People are too quick to give up as soon as something goes wrong.
    And then he could've just gone afk and waited for you to leave instead.

    Or what if it was agreed to that you'd stop trying to complete the key and just HS'd out. How is the game supposed to know the difference between that and a leaver?
    Or someone HS'ing out to repair if you have a warlock to summon back?

    You can't automate a system like that.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Atharaxie View Post
    We would all have a 1 rating by the end of the month.
    Except the people running with premades, who would leave 5 star reviews for each other

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Atharaxie View Post
    We would all have a 1 rating by the end of the month.
    wowprogress tried a karma system a few years back but it was basically just a popularity contest.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Velshin View Post
    I will be okay if it was even a hard tough boss mechanic but it was just a simple frontal cone breath that you can easily avoid if you just strafe or just get closer to the boss and side step it easily.
    I've never done it on keys, just M0, but do what I do. Tell all your ranged dps and healers that, even if it goes against their instincts and usually MO, stack behind the boss. The stomp also applies a slow and the further away you are the wider the range is. A melee literally needs to take 2 steps to either side to avoid the slam. A ranged at max range might run 20 yards and still be hit.
    The most difficult thing for people to do is objectively look at something they don't like and be able to accept that it is not bad, that other people like it, and if it was changed to the way they'd like it that other people would not like it and want it changed back. The second most is to receive something they didn't want or ask for and be grateful for it, not immediately demand what they wanted instead.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Velshin View Post
    Beware this is a ranting topic:

    I used to be a semi hardcore WoW player but now I am a casual with just item lvl 203 main character.

    I make sure to do M+10 every week once for at least the weekly.

    My current guild is semi hardcore mythic raiding that I used to raid with them for years but now I just do with them some alt runs heroic raiding and normal mode can't raid mythic with them anymore.


    Yesterday I decided to do my weekly M+10 key with 3 of my friends and one PUG warlock with item lvl 209 and raider io 900+

    We did plaguefall dungeon we reached the first boss then the warlock decided no to dodge the basic simple breath cone of the boss and died. First time he apologized then we wiped, I didn't say anything then it happens three times the same issue. Then he said "fk this" then left.... I mean the key was already ruined since we wiped three times because of him....so why the dick move and leaving like that is just beyond me....


    I never ever like to go with pugs really but sometimes I have no choice because my current guild is busy doing 15+ mythic keys and mythic raiding sometimes they do alt run joining my 10 keys but yeah it is not always. Sometimes I have to pug one player or two then this shit happens...


    There has to be a solution for players like that who are purposely ruining other players keys...
    The solution is simply to not take a pug. Only way around it.

  14. #14
    Until you can read the mind of the player - there is no solution for M+ leavers.

    The good news seems to be that at least the vault doesn't do a -1 on last week's key in Shadowlands.

    Due to COVID-19, Germany is running out of sausages and cheese.
    The government considers this to be the Wurst Käse scenario

  15. #15
    Sometimes it's just better to leave. There is a difference between just depleted key you choose to finish and party of pepegas crashing against brick wall of their own shit.
    All my ignores are permanently filtered out and invisible to me. Responding to my posts with nonsense or insults is pointless, you're likely already invisible and if not - 3 clicks away. One ignore is much better than 3 pages of trolling.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by schwarzkopf View Post
    Until you can read the mind of the player - there is no solution for M+ leavers.

    The good news seems to be that at least the vault doesn't do a -1 on last week's key in Shadowlands.
    don't say that out loud it sounds like a incoming case of fun detected bug fixed.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Velshin View Post
    sometimes I have to buy a boost ingame (using ingame money gold not real money) not because of me being uncompetant (I am far from being the best player ever but I carry my weight) but just so I can complete the content I am doing without any issues...
    if every group you are in has issues with the content, then the issue is yourself because you are the only constant in pug world.

  18. #18
    I am Murloc! Velshin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hellobolis View Post
    the most practical solution is to simply put "no leavers/not in time/just for weekly" etc in the description and make sure everybody is on the same page before you start the key.

    on high keys people just leaving instead of first mutually agreeing the key is ruined is rude but not the end of the world, you only do high keys for the sake of doing high keys after all.

    your specific leaver is an entirely different category though, that's just someone whos not having fun, bit off more than he could chew, was having a bad day or something like that. that's just something that's gonna happen once in a blue moon. and you can either accept that it happens once in a while or become someone who doesn't take a chance on people anymore and only invites overqualified people.

    reading between the lines, i think if you had offered this guy help in a friendly tone with how to do the mechanics, he would have stayed. it reads like someone who isn't very confident/good at the game and went for a no leavers group specifically to not get criticized for that, and then after a few wipes he probably felt he was ruining it for everybody and just left, which is where offering him help could make him realize it was fine.

    I did that exactly but yeah still it happened.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuusah View Post
    if every group you are in has issues with the content, then the issue is yourself because you are the only constant in pug world.
    Did I ever say that every group I join stuff like that happen? I usually don't pug anymore as I said earlier in the topic but sometimes I am forced to pug because friends/guildies are busy with other stuff. So no it doesn't happen all the time but when it does? it is super annoying because first it was an easy mechanic basic stuff and I straight wrote in the description "no leavers please". After the first death as I said it was okay because the warlock actually apologized and I gave him a tip of staying close to the boss to have an easier time to side step the cone/breath but he didn't reply and kept dying over and over and over three times then he suddenly "fk it" and left afterward.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Velshin View Post
    I did that exactly but yeah still it happened.
    you did half of that. you said no leavers but then forgot to check with your pug if he was actually okay with that. and on the flipside your pug also forgot to ask you if it was okay that he was new to the dungeon and might need some help. cause that's what you get if you put no leavers: people who know stuff but don't have the gear and people who don't know stuff but want to do a key anyways.

    it really doesn't sound like a malicious leaver to me. (unless he was drunk or something but can't know that).

  20. #20
    they are not purposefully ruining other people's keys, they just don't care.

    is there a solution for people to care other people's issues ? well, you can answer this i guess ?
    war does not determine who is right, only who is left.

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