Solution for M+ leavers....

[Grapemask]

Just to use your example, say the warlock would get penalised somehow for leaving so instead he decides to just /dance at the entrance instead and go make himself a sandwich. Now the rest of you are hostage because if you leave, you'll get punished for what is essentially not your fault.

Just to argue this point, this is actually already solved. By doing so, they'd be breaking other game rules. Now, whether Blizzard enforces them enough for players to take it seriously would be a point to consider, but technically rules against that kind of trolling do exist.

I'm okay with punishing innocents here, because I don't think it would ultimately punish too many. Yeah, it sucks if you have to legitimately leave a group for non-nefarious reasons and you end up with a debuff or whatever the case may be, but for every one person that gets a penalty for the wrong reason, at least a dozen will get it for the right reason. And the number of people who incorrectly get penalized will go down as people get better at planning for instance participation. I do think they'd still need to add a few additional tools - maybe give group leaders a "remove without penalty" command to help even it out.

I doubt Blizzard will do anything at all, though. I still remember when they added rules in Wrath that severely punished toxic players - only to quietly roll them back when they realized getting rid of bad people hurts their bottom line more than just letting them shit up the game.

[Artemol]

Easiest fix, is implementing a feature that is already in the game.

#1 You cannot force people to stay in a key that they don't want to play.
#2 You cannot design a system which punishes people for leaving without having side effects (If player leaves they get deserter buff - this would also apply to players being kicked = unfair).

There are many more "solutions" people have come up with.

The only solution which is somewhat fair is to activate an AI for the class / role of the player who LEFT (Not kicked).

IE. Mage joins a key, leaves after first boss - AI would then become "Ghost of Mage" and continue to follow the group and use spells.
This solution is already in the game and could easily be implemented in M+.

Sure an AI isn't a real person, but it's better than being 4 people.
AI Could be tweaked in a matter that reflects the playstyle of the average player with interrupts, ccs and such. (features which is already in the game).

[Ezyah]

Rating each other never works cause it s just a tool for toxic people to bully. Just look at league people telling you they ll report for anything.... you d get a 1 star review just because your tmog wasnt matching...

[ellieg]

Rating each other never works cause it s just a tool for toxic people to bully. Just look at league people telling you they ll report for anything.... you d get a 1 star review just because your tmog wasnt matching...

Joining a group as a frost mage and they wanted u to be fire. 1 star review before the key even starts lol.

Bad reviews juat cause they're from ragnaros.

Tank goes a perfectly acceptable path but dif than the one the leader had in mind.

So easy to abuse lol

[Eli85]

Quite simply, when you run M+ in circles of friends (or guildmates) there exists a social construct that prevents bad behavior. If Dan is being a dick in a M+ run, then you can simply refuse to run more M+ with Dan.

In PuGs, you have ZERO idea if the person you're picking is going to be a dick or a great player (or both). We use tools like r.io to help find "good/experienced" players but again it's no guarantee that the person you pick will be "good" and not just rage quit over the smallest thing.

And the devs, (specifically Ion) discussed that the intended audience of M+ is for friends/guildmates and not for strangers. And further talks about their (the devs) hesitancy to put in punishments for things like people leaving M+ mid-run. As others have pointed out, any punishment system can be readily abused to "take hostage" of the rest of the group. And any group system that preserves the key can lead to degenerate gameplay.

I don't disagree with anything that you posted, however, if players (like myself, and I am far from alone) can PUG every dungeon, every season, to +15 (and above), can the argument truly be made that it's not meant to be pugged? Let me put it another way: some people can "PUG" raid mythics (when it is current), but that's filling a spot in an organized group for a night or the week. Very few, if anyone, can put together a group of randoms every night and progress meaningfully through a mythic raid. So that's content that is clearly "not meant to be pugged." But if on the M+ side, I can go into premade finder and do every dungeon +15 with randoms, how is it not meant to be pugged?

That's the disconnect I can't reconcile. If something is not meant to be pugged, only a tiny minority should be able to PUG it, but that just doesn't line up with M+ realities. And yes, Ion said that it is intended for friends and guildmates, but I think that just speaks to how out of touch he (and other devs) are with the average player, since it can be pugged very effectively.

[Alroxas]

I don't disagree with anything that you posted, however, if players (like myself, and I am far from alone) can PUG every dungeon, every season, to +15 (and above), can the argument truly be made that it's not meant to be pugged?

Yet every expansion since M+ was added (basically from Legion onwards), we have the same complaints: Bad PuG experiences with M+.

How about if we rephrase the statement, successful M+ with less drama, less bad experiences (a la rage quit) comes from runs carried out by friends and/or guildmates. If you do PuG, expect more drama and a higher chance of bad experiences as there are ZERO social constructs to keep an anonymous player you invited from spoiling your M+ run. Chances can vary but that's the baseline risk if you PuG M+ and if you can't accept that risk then you shouldn't PuG M+.

And yes, Ion said that it is intended for friends and guildmates, but I think that just speaks to how out of touch he (and other devs) are with the average player, since it can be pugged very effectively.

Is it really that effective if so many people keep reporting bad experiences? I'd really like to see the actual numbers of M+ dungeons completed in time versus all M+ dungeons not completed in time and M+ not finished because players bailed out mid-run.

- - - Updated - - -

then they've tuned them too hard... i can't play keys at 10 or above with my friends... they're not good enough for that... so i have had to pug...

Emphasis mine. So find more friends or more players who are at your skill level? Plenty of resources to find other players.

- - - Updated - - -

The only solution which is somewhat fair is to activate an AI for the class / role of the player who LEFT (Not kicked).

And what happens when the AI is better than the player that left? Do we start forming groups with the intention of leaving so that it's a solo player with amazing AI that have better rotations than humans?

And how would you dial down/up the AI skill? Is it only 80% reliable to interrupt a spell? 60%? Does it use the right APL for AoE vs ST fights? Yeah we saw AI used in Island Expeditions in BFA and in the PvE/PvP Comp Stomp but even then we saw some pretty stupid AI (and some pretty smart AI) responses and determining which goes into a dungeon run is going to be tough.

- - - Updated - - -

Just to argue this point, this is actually already solved. By doing so, they'd be breaking other game rules. Now, whether Blizzard enforces them enough for players to take it seriously would be a point to consider, but technically rules against that kind of trolling do exist.

Is it trolling or are they merely RP their character to the fullest extent?

[Wysmark]

Im the filthiest of casuals, and usually only meddle with Keys in the 7-10 range.

The other day I was healing Tyrannical SD. We werent doing well and was wiping on Kryxis. Might be my healing, might be the about 2k dps each of the DPS was doing

We get boss down, but one dps leaves. Well run is dead right? So I say “oh well” and leave. Im then PM’ed several times by the tank with some flattering stuff about being a leaver and how much I sucked.

Thing about blame and penalty.... who really deserves it?

[Eli85]

Yet every expansion since M+ was added (basically from Legion onwards), we have the same complaints: Bad PuG experiences with M+.

To that, I would say you have to look at human nature and medium in which we are collecting complaints. To put it succintly: humans are much more likely to come to a like-minded community and discuss negative experiences rather than positive experiences, and, even if you are looking at all of the WoW forums, they still represent a minority of the player base.

So just looking at M+ complaints online does not paint a clear picture on how puggable M+ is. For that matter, my own experiences do not do it either. Since we're looking at poor sample size either way.

How about if we rephrase the statement, successful M+ with less drama, less bad experiences (a la rage quit) comes from runs carried out by friends and/or guildmates. If you do PuG, expect more drama and a higher chance of bad experiences as there are ZERO social constructs to keep an anonymous player you invited from spoiling your M+ run. Chances can vary but that's the baseline risk if you PuG M+ and if you can't accept that risk then you shouldn't PuG M+.

This would be a much better way to look at it.

Is it really that effective if so many people keep reporting bad experiences? I'd really like to see the actual numbers of M+ dungeons completed in time versus all M+ dungeons not completed in time and M+ not finished because players bailed out mid-run.

I'll return to my previous point: humans are more likely to discuss bad experiences and small sample size. It is very plausible that thousands of players are successfully pugging M+ and not discussing it with anyone, and perhaps the number having success could be significantly higher than the complaints. I do believe this is the case, but I do lack a large amount of data to prove it.

[VinceVega]

First of all: Like always. Look for regular partners to play with. That problem is instantly gone.
Second: Every alternativ is worse than the leavers. There are leavers, yes. But not many. This addon i had one so far. But PuGs are PuGs. If there is a way to exploit people, people in anonymity will exploit people.
Sooo you could give a leavers debuff. But what does it help you? He not being able to queue for half an hour? When do you get it? Am i forced to play a hopeless key because the leavers punishment is incredinly harsh? Like no loot for the next 2 dungeons or something? Or do i not get the debuff if the timer runs out? Which is also bad becuase many people like to finish the dungeon even if it timed out.
There is no solution for this. This is a human problem not a Blizz problem. Everything they could do would create worse problems they could not really fix.

TLDR: The problem is not that prevalent. Don't PuG if you don't want to deal with stuff like that. Every alternative brings more and worse problems with it.

[Aureli]

get good and people not going to have reason to leave

puging +12 with 800 rio and decent gear is much harder, then pugging +15 with 1300rio. Thats just the reality. Lower your score is, finding decent pug becomes harder and harder. Get a decent group to push your score, so other good players want to play with you

- - - Updated - - -

Yet every expansion since M+ was added (basically from Legion onwards), we have the same complaints: Bad PuG experiences with M+.

Most of the time its just bad players meeting other bad players and being angry for not getting carried through the actual content.

[thunderdragon2]

i was doing a 9 spires on my bear my key we get to the last boss we wipe on the mon be4 him and the druid left because his score is apparently more precious than anything.

my solution is if you leave mid way through oir near end -200 io score fuck io hunters

[GnomeEU]

IMHO the main problem is the rating system raider.io.
And that you get less rewards for not finishing the dungeon in time.
You get less loot and less rating.

If you're unlucky you do 5 dungeons an evening in 2 dungeons someone leaves. 3rd group is too weak to kill the bosses.
Run 4 and 5 give no loot for you.

I'd propose a token system. Where you get one token from first boss. Two tokens from second boss etc.

This would encourage people to stay in keys.
Once you got 20 tokens or something you can upgrade one item by 3 ilvl. Up to a max ilvl of 210,215 or whatever.

[Tziva]

i was doing a 9 spires on my bear my key we get to the last boss we wipe on the mon be4 him and the druid left because his score is apparently more precious than anything.

This doesn't even make sense, because you don't lose score for an untimed run, and you even gain score if you haven't done a key that level before. You just gain slightly less than if you had timed it, and timing it later will replace it. There is zero reason to leave a key because of impact on score.

(to be clear, I'm saying people leaving because of raider.io score don't make sense; I'm not questioning the accuracy of your statement)

my solution is if you leave mid way through oir near end -200 io score fuck io hunters

Even if this was a good idea, there'd be no was to implement it because unfinished runs aren't recorded, much less available on api call.

[enigma77]

The only real solution is to change the way M+ works. Instead of getting a mostly worthless random bad item out of the end of dungeon chest and being punished if you don't complete the run in time, by losing out on the 2nd most likely bad item, M+ should reward a currency, which you can trade in for gear, like Valor points back in the day.

This would mean people would have a much greater incentive to complete the run and collect their Valor points. Right now if you know you only get 1 item for the whole group and it's probably not going to be the one you want anyway, the temptation to just quit a potentially frustrating run is great.

In practical terms I would keep the timer and if you beat said timer you'd be rewarded with a greater amount of Valor points, but if you don't and finish the key you still get a decent chunk and you'd be stupid to leave prematurely. I'd make sure finishing in time would provide only a minor increase to the quantity of the currency, 20% at most. Additionally a weekly cap would be a solid idea aswell, to make sure people don't burn themselves out too much and well we can't have a nigh infinite currency to buy decent loot. The currency would be spent to buy high item level Mythic dungeon items off a vendor, akin to the pvp vendor. Higher item level loot would cost more Valor, naturally.

The only problem with this change that I can think of right now is that perhaps it would be too easy to obtain high item level loot. But our friend timegating could solve that problem, if it takes 3 weeks worth of farming your weekly Valor points to obtain say a 226 weapon the gear inflation would be kept to a minimum, albeit still increase of course.

[ellieg]

The only real solution is to change the way M+ works. Instead of getting a mostly worthless random bad item out of the end of dungeon chest and being punished if you don't complete the run in time, by losing out on the 2nd most likely bad item, M+ should reward a currency, which you can trade in for gear, like Valor points back in the day.

This would mean people would have a much greater incentive to complete the run and collect their Valor points. Right now if you know you only get 1 item for the whole group and it's probably not going to be the one you want anyway, the temptation to just quit a potentially frustrating run is great.

In practical terms I would keep the timer and if you beat said timer you'd be rewarded with a greater amount of Valor points, but if you don't and finish the key you still get a decent chunk and you'd be stupid to leave prematurely. I'd make sure finishing in time would provide only a minor increase to the quantity of the currency, 20% at most. Additionally a weekly cap would be a solid idea aswell, to make sure people don't burn themselves out too much and well we can't have a nigh infinite currency to buy decent loot. The currency would be spent to buy high item level Mythic dungeon items off a vendor, akin to the pvp vendor. Higher item level loot would cost more Valor, naturally.

The only problem with this change that I can think of right now is that perhaps it would be too easy to obtain high item level loot. But our friend timegating could solve that problem, if it takes 3 weeks worth of farming your weekly Valor points to obtain say a 226 weapon the gear inflation would be kept to a minimum, albeit still increase of course.

I think thered be the same amount of bitching if this was implemented.
1, as you said, is there wld be access to even more high ilvl gear.
2. If its time gated ppl are gonna cry that there's nothing to do when its done for the week.
3. If its not time gated ppl are gonna grind it out real quick then we are back to the same problem

Overall ppl need to understand that for this xpac, the purpose of M+ is to do 1/4/10 of then for great vault. Besides that your incentive of finishing a run is to grind up your rio score to work towards keymaster. The sub heroic level gear is the very last thing you should be concerned abt. By the time you're doing +15s, 210 gear is only used to fill in a couple spots.

[thunderdragon2]

This doesn't even make sense, because you don't lose score for an untimed run, and you even gain score if you haven't done a key that level before. You just gain slightly less than if you had timed it, and timing it later will replace it. There is zero reason to leave a key because of impact on score.

(to be clear, I'm saying people leaving because of raider.io score don't make sense; I'm not questioning the accuracy of your statement)


Even if this was a good idea, there'd be no was to implement it because unfinished runs aren't recorded, much less available on api call.

i know it dosent make make sense but why else would you leave right at the last boss with 2-4 mins left on the timer? then to chase io score?

[ellieg]

i know it dosent make make sense but why else would you leave right at the last boss with 2-4 mins left on the timer? then to chase io score?

Did he say why before leaving? Cldve been an irl emergency. I've had it happen. Feel bad for dipping out on 4 ppl after 30 or so minutes but if something IRL needs me unexpectedly, its a nobrainer

[thunderdragon2]

Did he say why before leaving? Cldve been an irl emergency. I've had it happen. Feel bad for dipping out on 4 ppl after 30 or so minutes but if something IRL needs me unexpectedly, its a nobrainer

he didnt say a word for the entire run

[Samuraijake]

Beware this is a ranting topic:

I used to be a semi hardcore WoW player but now I am a casual with just item lvl 203 main character.

I make sure to do M+10 every week once for at least the weekly.

My current guild is semi hardcore mythic raiding that I used to raid with them for years but now I just do with them some alt runs heroic raiding and normal mode can't raid mythic with them anymore.


Yesterday I decided to do my weekly M+10 key with 3 of my friends and one PUG warlock with item lvl 209 and raider io 900+

We did plaguefall dungeon we reached the first boss then the warlock decided no to dodge the basic simple breath cone of the boss and died. First time he apologized then we wiped, I didn't say anything then it happens three times the same issue. Then he said "fk this" then left.... I mean the key was already ruined since we wiped three times because of him....so why the dick move and leaving like that is just beyond me....


I never ever like to go with pugs really but sometimes I have no choice because my current guild is busy doing 15+ mythic keys and mythic raiding sometimes they do alt run joining my 10 keys but yeah it is not always. Sometimes I have to pug one player or two then this shit happens...


There has to be a solution for players like that who are purposely ruining other players keys...

Tinfoil hat theory - - As i see more shit like this... i have a sneaking suspicion that a couple of them are some dumbass streamer trying to have content by being a moron in random ppls dungeons. Think of the show "Jackass" but more trollier and in WoW.

[Kuja]

If there's a harsh penalty (Like not able to use LFG for dungeon groups for a day) for leaving a m+ when the timer has not yet run out, it should make people care more about ruining someone else's key.