Solution for M+ leavers....

[rrayy]

Hide behind the semantics of "context" and not actually address the issue that the overwhelming majority of players lack the skill, class understanding and ability to consistent clear +10 Mythic dungeons in random pick up groups.

Not playing semantics. You and others continually makes claims you cannot possibly prove so you make arbitrary standards so you can claim you are right. There is no metric or data that can determine whether a player is good or bad.

I'll play along.

Lets call the upper 51% good, the lower 49% bad.

No?

Or we can call the upper 30% good, the lower 70% bad.

Ok how about the lowest keystones cleared for a server?

Or the % of players with AoTC?

No?

Hmm...how about MoP/WoD CM Modes?

No?

Mage tower?

No?

What about 16 years of playing this game, and confidently stating the average player is a mediocre player at best, and those who invest the energy into learning will become better. The latter group being a small fraction of players?

No?

Again, those are arbitrary standards and you cannot in any way say whether a player is good or not by if they completed content. Why? Because there are many players who don't do the content at all. By your logic they are automatically bad players. Not how that works. There can easily be many players who would be perfectly able to clear the hardest content, but choose not to because it doesn't interest them.

Ah, you just want to feel right, despite a massive body of evidence that has been conveniently organized for you. Yes, its a body of evidence. If you're not sure how to process it to determine where you stack up, not sure what to tell you.

There is no "massive body of evidence" because it is all based on your aribtrary standard of what good is. YOu are hthe one who wnats to feel right because you are the one pushing and aribtrary standard.

I guess the whole "Fake news" defense still works.

When one resorts to ad hominem attacks, we know we are done here.

[Jervaise]

There is an amazing solution to M+ leavers - make friends in game and play with them.

[chiddie]

most people can't even do +10... they are shit at playing the game...

Most people can’t even do a +10 because they are still not geared enough to have a reasonable chance not to be a burden.

[rrayy]

lol... no... if you can't complete a +10, you are objectively bad at the game...

And again, arbitrary standard. You are not he aribter of what a good player is. So, nothing you say is fact.

Since you cannot provide any proof of your claims, we are done here.

[erifwodahs]

Leaver Buster works fine in LoL, no reason a similar system couldn't be adopted to punish repeat leaver griefers. They do it enough, restrict their access to the feature. that simple. give them a debuff similar to deserter, only lasting MUCH MUCH longer. there must be consequences to bad behavior in order to stop the bad behavior.

What about dropping a key down?
What about people who are held hostages by crap players?
What about teams who bail untimed runs?

[chiddie]

what are you talking about? i did my first +10 in 185~ gear, first week of the season... highest ilvl in the group was 190... people that actually play the game can have better gear than that at this point just from their covenant...

people need to learn how to play their characters... complaining about leavers is just laughable when leavers happens because of people not being able to play...

Go tell this to ppl asking ilvl 200 minimum for the 7-9 bracket.

Also don’t assume the majority of ppl play 40 hours per week, I’m just 197 for example and I started to play day 1 of SL.

[chiddie]

are you not doing content?

i have an alt... it's 60... has been 60 since november last year... i have only logged in on it to do one mythic plus key every week since the season started and do torghast then i leave it be again until next week and it has higher ilvl...

I am simply playing 1,5 hours max per day and not even all days. Also it’s not always 1,5 hours straight.

It’s not so difficult to lag behind.

[chiddie]

i am doing one key per week on my alt and have higher ilvl... are you doing content that gives you no gear or what?

I am doing basically

- weekly renown quests
- weekly Ve’nari quests
- weekly dungeon quests
- WQ that give useful conduits or 250 anima
- 2 layer 6 Torghast runs, one per wing
- M+ dungeons (usually 4 to 6)
- purple covenant emissaries
- weekly world boss
- weekly events (only if dungeon related like TW or complete 4 M+)

After this I don’t have much time left to do something else. Also I basically never drop something in M+.

[Jinpachi]

What about dropping a key down?
What about people who are held hostages by crap players?
What about teams who bail untimed runs?

What about it? Nothing is perfect, but something is better than nothing. One problem at a time, chief.

[erifwodahs]

What about it? Nothing is perfect, but something is better than nothing. One problem at a time, chief.

Don't create 4 problems to solve one.

[Jinpachi]

go invite the first people who apply to your +15 key, don't check rio... see how well you will fare...

I don't pug +15. I have a squad for that shit.

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Don't create 4 problems to solve one.

A system to ban leaver griefers isnt creating problems at all. Your other examples aren't important enough to worry about.

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YOua re naive if you think only a small minority would abuse it. It will be abused into the ground no matter how many people it takes.

You NEVER give players that type of power.

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4 other people does not = most people. So, yes it is an arbitrary opinion with nothing to back it up.

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It is NEVER a good thing. And there is no "potential" here. It absolutely will be abused. Period.

Yes it is, and who cares if it's abused. Shit is abused in LoL all the time, doesn't stop the money train. And lets not get it twisted, THAT'S all that matters.

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We have the data, the proportion of the player base that has timed a +15 key, is 1/10 Mythic CN or is even 1600+ in ranked pvp is incredibly small. Most players are shit, or at the very least, have little idea how to engage in high-level end game content

So the percentage is small enough that it's not worth worrying about because at the end of the day it's not the incredibly small player base that pays the bills.

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We have the data, the proportion of the player base that has timed a +15 key, is 1/10 Mythic CN or is even 1600+ in ranked pvp is incredibly small. Most players are shit, or at the very least, have little idea how to engage in high-level end game content

If you're complaining that puggers are bailing on runs they probably shouldn't even have been invited to, YOU are the problem. Get a full time M+ squad and get it done, or stop complaining and deal with what you have. High level M+ isn't for casuals, and expecting anything more than casual performance from pug groups is only setting yourself up for disappointment.

[Malkiah]

i am doing one key per week on my alt and have higher ilvl...

aka... "i haven't gotten the same slot in my great vault for the last 3 weeks and so i think that makes me a better player than you"

[derekmmorgan94]

Not even last week I was in a PUG that a tank, healer, and dps friend started and when an item dropped on the first boss the tank told the other dps that he better give him the drop or he will kick him from group. The player gave him the item and then still got kicked. They started laughing at him as we continued. I told the tank he's a toxic player and he went on a rant on how I am a bitch and kicked me because he had 2 other friend's who can vote kick with him.... The player-base is way too toxic to have player written reviews. I was stuck with a debuff for no reason because 3 immature toxic players have all the control. Imagine what they would have written in my player review.

[erifwodahs]

A system to ban leaver griefers isnt creating problems at all. Your other examples aren't important enough to worry about.

Sure dude, creating hostage keys where people get abused or forced to take punishment for AFK ppl who don't leave. Any leaver would just go AFK and jump around every few minutes until someone leaves. Had plenty of healers who just told everyone to suck it and went afk/left.

[mistmitpandas]

Itemlevel and reward you get is a total joke in Shadowlands M+ for how hard it is and how much time you invest into it and gold too.

15 m+ item level should give 220-226.
10 210.

Also believe it or not, but I didnt get a single item in over 20 runs. Yepp.

For the leavers issue: It could be fixed easily, if the timer is like maybe +5 mins into, and then people leave before end boss kill and you have to quit, the stone wont get downgraded. Problem solved.

[Tiwack]

Issue is with the way keys are acquired/upgraded/downgraded, it's way too easy to waste other peoples time/key/ideal-dungeon-run. Just timing all at m15 is very hard without a dedicated group or playing 60hours a week. Post above has a good suggestion to start.

[Naville]

Any M+ leaver punishment system Blizzard can implement will eventually turn against premades, PUGs or even both. Lots of ideas have been proposed over the years, but no one is viable. And Blizzard knows about it.

Reputation systems? Either positive or negative, they will be flawed quite fast...

Blizzard may improve the kystone system in a future patch, just as they did in Legion when they removed the "depleted" state. Until then it's better to seek some friends to run keys with.

[Mouri Kogorou]

There isn't an easy fix or it probably would have been implemented already.

Any kind of automated system that would punish people for leaving, would also inadvertently punish innocent people as well or cause other repercussions by people refusing to leave to avoid punishment. Just to use your example, say the warlock would get penalised somehow for leaving so instead he decides to just /dance at the entrance instead and go make himself a sandwich. Now the rest of you are hostage because if you leave, you'll get punished for what is essentially not your fault.

Leaver penalties may work in other games, but with the way WoW and m+ are designed, you can't really automate a fix for this that isn't going to punish innocents in addition to the people being malicious, or otherwise be exploited or result in modified (but not improved) behaviour.

I think the best approach involves actual human review and decisions on some level, whether it is reporting those people to blizzard (and hoping they take action against habitual offenders) or screening pugs better and hoping you don't get unlucky.

I'm not going to tell you not to PuG because I know that isn't always a viable option for people as someone who PuGs a lot myself. But I would recommend doing things like investigating m+ focused community groups and discords, and being clear in your group listings ("trying to time but will complete if not") to try to make sure everyone is on the same page to try to limit the likelihood as much as possible.

there is a very very simple fix

"vote surrender" to allow a person leave without punishment.

if someone leave before voting then no key can be activated for a daily reset while the leaver is in the group (deserter debuff for a daily reset).

if vote surrender is passed (has to be initiated after 5 minutes and 7 deaths and 1 boss down) then any leaver will not be punished and the key will NOT be downgraded.

[erifwodahs]

Blizzard may improve the kystone system in a future patch, just as they did in Legion when they removed the "depleted" state. Until then it's better to seek some friends to run keys with.

This.
Any keys I truly need - I would rather wait until the evening for everyone to be online than to pug. And that is why pugging community suffers as a whole, people who are toxic trash are left alone and good players who are decent human being usually add some people and stop pugging with unknown people. So after a while you are left with increasing population of assholes in decreasing pool of decent human beings who play solo.

Had paladin leaving my 17 DoS because we would not be able to finish two minutes earlier than the timer expires We could have timed that (if no fails) We had one more trash pull+pride+2x non tyranical bosses with BL up. So around 3 minutes to do the last boss. P1+Totems take around 1m30sec.

Had another shaman leave DoS 16 because hunter dps did not finish the totem off and we depleted the key. If he had stayed for another two minutes and item would have dropped and a weekly vault counter would have been increased but he was "WTF FFS" and left Oh and another shaman who did meh healing and kept pulling for me until he fucked up prides, skips and pulled too many mobs at the end after which he said "don't pull what you can't handle tank" xD

Long story there but DoS is not puggable... kinda mad about arrogant leavers like that when we were 30mins into the dungeon and no one was even saying anything. Lesson learnt anyway. Always adding decent players if we happen to run more than one key in a row and no issues arise.

[Jotaux]

Would not a "hey I'm looking to time this, but if we won't I'd like to still complete. Everyone okay with that?" suffice? I've said that on keys that I think may be difficult (+14 tyrannical SD) and I've never had anyone leave after that unless its completely clear we are at a brick wall and can't proceed.

I think just being upfront and reasonable with people from the start would solve most of these problems.

I've been in groups with that kind of note or even no leaver in the title and had someone leave. One bad pull and someone leaves.