Solution for M+ leavers....

[Thrif]

Because you'd be forced to stay in miserable keys that have absolutely no hope of being completed.

So make a disband option, if 3 people in the group agrees to call it, no leaver marks are recorded.

[ellieg]

They just need to add a surrender vote and if you leave before the surrender vote that can be detected via addons. Then Raider.io can take leavers into account and you'll know in advance if someone is a chronic bailer.

I posted my run about yesterday. 5 attempts on 2nd boss of NW. Used up all the spears, even tried wuth lust twice. I was the lone solo in a group of 4 friends. If they wanted to keep trying for 2 more hours, should I be required to stay because my surrender vote would never pass?

[Twdft]

You won’t stop mythic quitters until the punishment is more severe.

Make it so when you quit, you can’t queue up for a m+ for another day. If you quit again within a month, a week. If you quit a third time, you can’t join a m+ for a month

Right now, you can just quit and wait it out without any repercussions and people jump on that.

Blizzard could solve this overnight but they can’t do it without being heavy handed and setting some examples out of some people

Have you ever worked on KSM?

You run any key until get a +16 of a dungeon you don't already timed +15. You run that +16 for excercise and if you don't time it abort at end boss to immediately go in +15 again with a higher chance to actually time it. Rinse and repeat.

Do you volunteer to get your proposed punishment for aborting your training runs? Also: do you volunteer to take the punishment when downgrading your high key to carry your friends Alts through a +14 for chest?

You simply can not dish out automatic punishments for manual groups.

[Relapses]

So make a disband option, if 3 people in the group agrees to call it, no leaver marks are recorded.

Again, you're giving way too much power to premades. People could effective hold a group hostage. Again, why force Blizzard to intervene on a purely social problem?

[Lathspell]

Maybe everyone should just adopt this every man for himself attitude in M+ and not give a F* about the experience of other players. MMO's didn't always work like that. People chose to overcome challenges together even in pugs instead of just quitting.

[Temp name]

This. A simple Dungeon Quit Counter, or % of dungeons quit listed beside your character in a queue or listing would solve it.

That doesn't stop people from just going afk.
And it also adds in that people can start dungeons and then kick you from them to ruin your character stats

[Temp name]

So make a disband option, if 3 people in the group agrees to call it, no leaver marks are recorded.

3man group invites 2 pugs / joins another key.
They all go afk.

What do then?

It's a social problem, it won't be solved with overly complicated systems

[Lathspell]

It should just track unfinished keys. People who don't leave won't get a significant amount of them, people who quit easily and often get a lot. If a group kicks you they all get the same record of not finishing it.

[Temp name]

yet i have no problems getting invites... playing retri, frost dk or bm hunter alts... no problems getting invites as shadow either if i am doing my weekly keys...

They can't see if you're frost or unholy, or if you're BM or MM. Unholy and MM are good, stable meta picks. And Shadow is definitely meta now.

Depending on the dungeons you're signing up for on the paladin it makes sense, since rets tend to be venthyr, they're inviting you for dungeon buffs

[Thrif]

Again, you're giving way too much power to premades. People could effective hold a group hostage. Again, why force Blizzard to intervene on a purely social problem?

How would they hold them hostage? If a majority of the group believes the key still is worth trying for, then that is the decent thing to do whether you personally believe it or not.

Could you elaborate and give some examples?

[Lathspell]

This "social problem" thing is funny. There are tons of social problems Blizzard has implemented systems to fight against. Why couldn't they do something about this one?

[ellieg]

Maybe everyone should just adopt this every man for himself attitude in M+ and not give a F* about the experience of other players. MMO's didn't always work like that. People chose to overcome challenges together even in pugs instead of just quitting.

You'll find that 90% of pug runs are like this. Especially at higher levels. You join group, you say hi. You eat your food buff, pop a flask. Route gets linked. Ready check goes out. 10 sec countdown. Run starts and you go thru it. If everyone is good enough to be there, it super smooth and you say ty for group at end. Maybe 1 or 2 ppl die throughout run and its no problem. Maybe its a really hard pack and you get a pat, or something fuvks up and you wipe. Ppl run back and you continue. Rarely you'll get 1 person that drops group if he thinks the run is worthless but its not usual at all. What usually happens when groups disband is a healer that can't keep ppl up, dps that aren't interrupting or doing decent damage, or a tank pulling weirdly. Leads to multiple wipes and ppl get mad. Then they leave

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How would they hold them hostage? If a majority of the group believes the key still is worth trying for, then that is the decent thing to do whether you personally believe it or not.

Could you elaborate and give some examples?

My NW run yesterday. Im solo dps in a 4 man group of friends. 5 wipes on same boss. No improvement whatsoever with each attempt. Why should I stay jist cause they want to continue?

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It should just track unfinished keys. People who don't leave won't get a significant amount of them, people who quit easily and often get a lot. If a group kicks you they all get the same record of not finishing it.

So instead of 1 player getting mad and leaving, "punishing" the key holder, it'll be 1 player leaving and all 5 get an unfinished key mark on their record?

[Lathspell]

My NW run yesterday. Im solo dps in a 4 man group of friends. 5 wipes on same boss. No improvement whatsoever with each attempt. Why should I stay jist cause they want to continue?

I think this stems from the idea that if you sign up for a dungeon you sign up to finish it and not quit half way. I get leaving in a situation like that where it really is hopeless. I don't think many people disagree about that. I wouldn't even mind the leaving part if the keyholder wasn't punished for it while the one who leaves doesn't suffer any consequences.

I agree that punishing the leaver isn't really feasible (except for that tracking unfinished runs thing), but either just getting rid of keystones alltogether in favor of an unlockable (complete +14 timed to unlock +15) difficulty slider or not having to downgrade your key if you get an idiot ruining your run. I would like to hear counter arguments against this (other than not wanting "unfit" people having too high keys)

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So instead of 1 player getting mad and leaving, "punishing" the key holder, it'll be 1 player leaving and all 5 get an unfinished key mark on their record?

This isn't a problem for people who don't leave keys, they will only have a few unfinished ones, but the ones leaving will have 100's.

[chiddie]

Because you'd be forced to stay in miserable keys that have absolutely no hope of being completed.

But there’s not only “timed” or “failed by 30 mins”.

As I said before or in another thread maybe, 75% of my non timed runs are par + max 10 minutes and 90% of those 75% are par + max 5 minutes.

I’m against punishment for leavers because it would affect even legit leavers, but the scenario “jizuz I’m stuck into an endless 90 minutes dungeon” is not THAT usual.

[ellieg]

I think this stems from the idea that if you sign up for a dungeon you sign up to finish it and not quit half way. I get leaving in a situation like that where it really is hopeless. I don't think many people disagree about that. I wouldn't even mind the leaving part if the keyholder wasn't punished for it while the one who leaves doesn't suffer any consequences.

I agree that punishing the leaver isn't really feasible (except for that tracking unfinished runs thing), but either just getting rid of keystones alltogether in favor of an unlockable (complete +14 timed to unlock +15) difficulty slider or not having to downgrade your key if you get an idiot ruining your run. I would like to hear counter arguments against this (other than not wanting "unfit" people having too high keys)

I think that should be communicated in the beginning. To me, you sign up to a group with the expectation to finish it on time. Everyone has a different expectation and you don't know unless you talk or put it in the description. When I run my own keys, I don't mind if ppl leave if it doesn't look timed. Other ppl put "no leavers" in the description. Just gotta communicate

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This isn't a problem for people who don't leave keys, they will only have a few unfinished ones, but the ones leaving will have 100's.

So only the first person to leave gets the unfinished mark on their record? Not the other 4 unless they kick them? What's stopping them from just going afk?

[Thrif]

3man group invites 2 pugs / joins another key.
They all go afk.

What do then?

It's a social problem, it won't be solved with overly complicated systems

Leave (again, everyone will have a certain % of leaving keys, this will only seed out so people won't do it repeatedly and whenever they feel like) or wait for the key to run out and just chuck it up to a bad day.

It's really not constructive to view a system under the lens of the worst possible scenario happening repeatedly. There will always be situations outside of the norms that will suck whatever system you envision, but at least here it takes 3 people to ruin it for 2 and it's a far less likely scenario than 1 ruining it for 4 by leaving because he's a bit annoyed at the poor progress.

My NW run yesterday. Im solo dps in a 4 man group of friends. 5 wipes on same boss. No improvement whatsoever with each attempt. Why should I stay jist cause they want to continue?

Because you joined the key and should try your best as long as it's viable?

Again, very much the same situation as the one above. The odds of running into this kind of scenario where not 2 of the other people would realize the run is ruined and abandon, and this happening often enough that i would severely impact someones leave ratio isn't that likely. Not compared to how the system is now, when 1 player can easily ruin a run for 4 others just because he's not feeling it for whatever reason.

[chiddie]

because people leave before it gets to that point...

Yes but also no. Many people leave at first wipe, even if it’s after 5 minutes. This is insane.

[ellieg]

Leave (again, everyone will have a certain % of leaving keys, this will only seed out so people won't do it repeatedly and whenever they feel like) or wait for the key to run out and just chuck it up to a bad day.

It's really not constructive to view a system under the lens of the worst possible scenario happening repeatedly. There will always be situations outside of the norms that will suck whatever system you envision, but at least here it takes 3 people to ruin it for 2 and it's a far less likely scenario than 1 ruining it for 4 by leaving because he's a bit annoyed at the poor progress.



Because you joined the key and should try your best as long as it's viable?

Again, very much the same situation as the one above. The odds of running into this kind of scenario where not 2 of the other people would realize the run is ruined and abandon, and this happening often enough that i would severely impact someones leave ratio isn't that likely. Not compared to how the system is now, when 1 player can easily ruin a run for 4 others just because he's not feeling it for whatever reason.

What is "viable". Key wasn't gonna be timed after 2 wipes, i stayed for 3 additional.

Don't want ppl leaving your key? Vet the players you're running with better. Not 100% fool proof but running with a low io mistweaver who couldn't keep us up isn't gonna help ppl stick around lol.

[Alroxas]

I’m against punishment for leavers because it would affect even legit leavers, but the scenario “jizuz I’m stuck into an endless 90 minutes dungeon” is not THAT usual.

I still think the problem with "punishment for leavers" is that it just causes other negative gameplay. For instance, let's say there is a punishment for the first "leaver", what prevents a player who sees that the group isn't going to complete (much less time the key) for whatever reason (i.e. Low DPS, players don't understand mechanics and wipes, etc) and decides to "functionally leave" the group without exiting the dungeon.

They don't actually exit the dungeon but just go to at best non-participating yet still moving around role (to prevent AFK timer from kicking in) or at worst purposely troll the group by pulling extra.

[ellieg]

I still think the problem with "punishment for leavers" is that it just causes other negative gameplay. For instance, let's say there is a punishment for the first "leaver", what prevents a player who sees that the group isn't going to complete (much less time the key) for whatever reason (i.e. Low DPS, players don't understand mechanics and wipes, etc) and decides to "functionally leave" the group without exiting the dungeon.

They don't actually exit the dungeon but just go to at best non-participating yet still moving around role (to prevent AFK timer from kicking in) or at worst purposely troll the group by pulling extra.

Absolutely nothing. Just like every "solution" ppl come up with, it will lead to more toxicity. The only good solution is to make friends, join a guild, and actually communicate with the ppl you are running with. Wont work every time but will drastically improve your quality of runs