Solution for M+ leavers....

[ellieg]

lol... just tried to do a +14 hoa... the tank wanted a shroud at the start to skip... rogue uses shroud... someone manages to pull with shroud up... the tank just left lol... how the fuck do people even manage to pull when shroud is up?

There are a lot of ppl that think stealth and invisibility are the same lol. Only experience they have is popping invisibility pot and running a straight line thru mobs. You'd think by +14 they would know better

[AwkwardSquirtle]

Is that 10% of all accounts, or 10% of players that do m+? Cause if its all accounts, then actual % of players that "do" m+ would be way higher right lol. Let's say 1/3 of players regularly do m+, that would mean 30% of players that do m+ get ksm. Higher than I thought tbh

10% of all players. For reference, it says 25% have Keystone Explorer which I'd say is a decent identifier of players who "actually does m+". If that assumption is correct, then it's about 40%.

[chiddie]

If you consistently aren't timing keys, you are the problem one way or the other. I dont mean the 1 or 2 times it happens, im talking multiple times a week. If you're the leader, you arent forming groups correctly. If you're the tank, your route or survivability sucks. If you're the healer, you aren't keeping ppl alive or contributing to dps / utility. If you're the dps, you aren't doing enough damage or interrupts.

Its easy to blame others but the common denominator is you. If +15s, 1 wipe doesn't mean a failed key, but 2 wipes will with average groups going at the average pace. Figure out what you can do better. Rotate cds.

If you dont like the timer that's fine. Make that clear up front. Dont cry on the forums for its removal. Cry on the forums or a separate mode for you if you really think there's enough players like you.

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When there's 2 full wipes before first boss of NW during the easiest trash, you can tell its gonna be a shitshow lol

This reminds me of a weird NW run I had one month ago where timer finished BEFORE we reached Amarth. I know I should have left at second wipe at Blightbone but I was curious to see how bad it could go XD.

They even got mad because I left when we wiped (surprise) at Amarth XD.

But apart from these extreme cases, it’s not that all non timed runs are miserable per se, as I said failing the timer by 5 to 10 minutes is not miserable at all.

[Nite92]

You can’t tell if it will be miserable after 5 minutes. You can sometimes tell you probably won’t time it, but not timing is different from “miserable experience”.

There are plenty examples, one was +14 this week. On a shard pull no one besides me kicked collect sins, and no decurses came. We wiped twice. That is enough for me to leave an m+.

[kiramon]

Yup, can agree with this. My hps is usually higher in 14s with randoms then 22s-23s with the group of friends i run with.

Randoms in lfg are the actual worst players. Get friends, stress goes down and keys go up. Ez

What, you mean DPS might have to use personals on a Fortified DOS Enraged Spirit with no Jar?

[Nite92]

mage tower wasn't about skill... a friend of mine said he just spammed feint with legendary legs and he couldn't die...

It is just with everything in WoW. It depends on how much gear you have.

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i'm not talking about wcl rankings... i am talking about details... if you are at 6k hps in a +12... then the group is taking too much damage... and if the healer can't outheal all the damage you're taking... then the blame is on you for taking so much damage... most people in lower keys are getting hard carried by the healer because they're taking way too much avoidable damage... if they had a healer on their own skill level then they wouldn't make it through the dungeon... on my worst run so far this season i've had someone take 800k failure damage according to the eh addon... my hps that run was 6.5k in a +12... that guy had the audacity to flame me for him dying... rest of the group was at 20-50k damage... if he hadn't been the tank he would have died far more times from that amount of avoidable damage taken...

i have since then just started to leave groups where the damage taken from avoidable sources is that high... i'm not sticking around with those people...

Can you please stop the "..."?

Why are you dodging my point. My fucking god. It does not matter if the hps number is shown in details or on WCL. WCL is a thing for raids, because it is actually compareable. M+ dungeons have too many variables.

[ellieg]

10% of all players. For reference, it says 25% have Keystone Explorer which I'd say is a decent identifier of players who "actually does m+". If that assumption is correct, then it's about 40%.

That's a good point. Never knew it was so high.

[chiddie]

There are plenty examples, one was +14 this week. On a shard pull no one besides me kicked collect sins, and no decurses came. We wiped twice. That is enough for me to leave an m+.

I can also make examples but too often people leave at first wipe simply because they fear they won’t do it in time. Also leavers are usually the ones who caused the wipe itself, that is even more weird. XD

Doing in time seems to be all that matters. I’m ok with this but only to a degree.

[Nite92]

I can also make examples but too often people leave at first wipe simply because they fear they won’t do it in time. Also leavers are usually the ones who caused the wipe itself, that is even more weird. XD

Doing in time seems to be all that matters. I’m ok with this but only to a degree.

Yes, it was pretty bad. Especially before the buffed loot. You lost 50% of the rewards at the end of the dungeon by not timing it.

[ellieg]

This reminds me of a weird NW run I had one month ago where timer finished BEFORE we reached Amarth. I know I should have left at second wipe at Blightbone but I was curious to see how bad it could go XD.

They even got mad because I left when we wiped (surprise) at Amarth XD.

But apart from these extreme cases, it’s not that all non timed runs are miserable per se, as I said failing the timer by 5 to 10 minutes is not miserable at all.

Ya if I just need it for completion I always stay if I think it will be finished within 5 or so of the timer. As long as i think no one else will leave either (you can usually "feel" it).

Its only miserable when it's described as a push run and you need it to be timed and you know it most likely won't be but its not bad enough to leave so you know you've committed to 40 mins without any real gain

[erifwodahs]

mage tower wasn't about skill... a friend of mine said he just spammed feint with legendary legs and he couldn't die...

lol. Some of the challenges were easier, but it certainly wasn't that simple. What ilvl he had>

[chiddie]

Ya if I just need it for completion I always stay if I think it will be finished within 5 or so of the timer. As long as i think no one else will leave either (you can usually "feel" it).

Its only miserable when it's described as a push run and you need it to be timed and you know it most likely won't be but its not bad enough to leave so you know you've committed to 40 mins without any real gain

Ahahaha I avoid like the pest everything with “push” or “in time” or something like that written into description, 9 on 10 is a terrible key holder hoping for a carry.

[ellieg]

Ahahaha I avoid like the pest everything with “push” or “in time” or something like that written into description, 9 on 10 is a terrible key holder hoping for a carry.

Just inspect the leader on rio. I've found them to be most successful runs as long as it looks like the leader belongs there. They usually fill it with other qualified ppl

[erifwodahs]

Why are you dodging my point. My fucking god. It does not matter if the hps number is shown in details or on WCL. WCL is a thing for raids, because it is actually compareable. M+ dungeons have too many variables.

You can easy use WCL in m+, not for ranking, but for combat analysis.

[Nite92]

you don't have a point... you shouldn't have to do 6k hps in a +12... that means people are taking a lot of avoidable damage... i never even had a run where i have to do 6k hps in +18...

Funny 2 posts ago it was 3k hps. Stop cha ging the goalpost

[Relapses]

If the content is designed around it, the timer is not the only way to measure skill - look Mage Tower for example. Also you can still still have timer for bragging rights / cosmetics. Removing it from the "completion" requirement for the key changes nothing for the "competitive M+" - keys above 14 are just done only for the bragging rights / self progress so the timers are perfectly fine for just having a score / ranking / achievement.

Below 15 do you really care if some random pug group wants to spend 5h in one dungeons lusting on every pack? RIO already shows appropriate points difference between a group that +3 that dungeon over someone who failed the timer by an hour.

The "slow pug" will not be bothered to go above 14, as there are no additional rewards for them, nothing changes for people pushing keys in a dedicated group for the fun and glory of it - they will still be doing their push to get +28 done in time for those sweet sweet RIO points.

I never said that dungeons couldn't be challenging without a timer; simply that M+'s main challenge component is the timer itself. It's fine to dislike timed content but a lot of the "just remove the timer" comments read to me like people who just want M+ to be something it isn't. There are so many different things to do in this game that I find it hard to believe the zero sum "Blizzard needs to change this otherwise everybody will quit" style of argumentation you often see attached to these suggestions.

[Alroxas]

Then you get removed from the group.
Lol.

Your original post said nothing about being removed from the group. Also being removed from the group doesn't debuff timer unless you're including the first to be kicked or leaves the dungeon gets the "24 hr debuff".

In which case, if kicks also trigger the debuff, then that puts even more trolling behavior. Here let me be the group leader and threaten the invited players that if you don't do X then I'll kick you from the group and now you can't play M+ for 24 hours.

So if none of my friends or guildmates are on, that means I can't play the game.

So you're telling me you can't make new friends? Certainly there's always some amount of players online at any given hour minus when the servers are down for reset.

"nooo pugs BAD pugs BAD, everything must be friends and guilds or else that means you're trying to play solo!!!!"
Big yikes.

PuGs can be bad because there is no social construct that prevents a PuG from going poorly. Within a community of friends (or guildmates) there is a social construct to handle bad behavior.

Glad you're not working for Blizzard.

Really? Yeah that helps your case SOOO much.

[Alroxas]

go make friends? all my friends have quit lol and they weren't up to par either... i've pugged my way to the rio score i have...

Make new ones then? Ones that match your skill level and desire to achieve higher r.io scores?

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So what? I am allowed to leave. Especially if the run is a miserable experience.

This is the very argument that Ion has stated. A no-punishment system like the one we have now allows for players to leave for whatever reason. Whereas the danger of putting in a punishment system is that it can be abused to hold people hostage in a group that they no longer want to participate in.

Until you can solve that potential for abuse, no punishment system is a valid solution for blizzard.

[ellieg]

"nooo pugs BAD pugs BAD, everything must be friends and guilds or else that means you're trying to play solo!!!!"
Big yikes.

"Nooo leavers BAD leavers BAD, everyone must stay for my key no matter how bad or else that means you're toxic!!!"
Big yikes.

Thats how you sound. You can't force 4 players to carry you thru the key

[Relapses]

Clearly the surrender button can be disabled until 15 minutes into the dungeon and it can go on cooldown for 5m * 2^(surrender attempts) after a failed vote.

So they can push it after 15m, then push it after 20m, then push it after 30m, then push it after 50m, etc.

Realistically, the dungeon auto surrenders at timer + 15m.

Or, get this... you don't need to a surrender a fucking dungeon. Just leave.