Solution for M+ leavers....

[klogaroth]

"Raiding=/= M+" is bullshit because the mechanics are the same regardless of what content you do because WoW is WoW.

That's why when you have killed one raid boss, you never wipe again to any new bosses. And every progress tier you instantly get to farm, because you've seen a mechanic, so you know how every future boss works....

You need to know the content.

Proving that you know how to learn encounters does not prove that you know how to do a given encounter. What pug groups are looking for, both for raid pugs and M+ pugs, is someone that can demonstrate that they know a given encounter. Not someone who they think is capable of learning it.

If you are looking for a learning environment, it is found with a more consistent group of people, or in very very early pugs before anyone knows. Once a few people know, they will seek others that know. If you expect to join those groups, unlucky. If you seek others that don't know, be aware that they will also usually be able to fill the group with people who know once a tier has gone on for a while.

[Isenholt]

Raider IO just shows what people completed.

What we need is like Yelp reviews for players.

My wife suggested something like this as well. I can see the merit but I just wonder how people might abuse it as well.

I feel like the real answer to all of this is finding a consistent group to play with. You schedule time and get your runs/pushing done for the week. I've tried to do this for the last few seasons, and I don't fault those that find it daunting. It really is a lot of work to find people around your skill or experience level that are friendly, respectful, and willing to learn and improve alongside you.

[Isenholt]

probably like this kind of attitude from ow...

Sorry, I don't think I understand your comment. Is ow Overwatch? Not trying to be thick, I think I may just be missing something!

[Relapses]

Never once said I linked it to get an invitation, but keep building straw men. I said I had been laughed at when people asked me to link something to prove I wasn't bad and that was given. People are perfectly capable of going to my armory or looking at my character in-game to see the "Death's Demise" title if they think I might be faking an achievement that less than 0.1% of the playerbase has. If you also think that my previous game experience somehow means nothing in the current state of the game, you are as free to be as wrong as anyone else.

You're right, I don't think it means nothing. I think it means less than nothing. There's zero context for that achievement and if somebody with zero IO linked that to me I'd just assume you bought your account in a discount bin off eBay. It's the real world equivalent of applying for the position of head chef at a 3-star Michelin restaurant with a resume that includes ten years as a clerk at Auto Zone. You are not entitled to special treatment because of your past experience, get over yourself.

- - - Updated - - -

Sorry, I don't think I understand your comment. Is ow Overwatch? Not trying to be thick, I think I may just be missing something!

It means trusting this cesspool of a community with the task of fairly and impartially judging one another's performance is about the worst idea you could possibly have.

[Isenholt]

that's just a comment that was typed in ow... i've encountered similar sentiment in wow but it's been typed on discord or said on voice...

we hadn't even started the game when this was typed to me... all that happened was they heard me on voice and thus assumed we were going to lose the game... we did lose the game... but not because of me... because this guy was flaming me instead of playing... so we played 5v6...

same shit will happen in wow if we can review other players... "omg girl play dps"...

Ah I see. For what it's worth, I'm sorry you've had experiences like that. I don't play Overwatch myself, but at least in WoW I know my wife says she hasn't faced this trouble, probably because we don't pug at all if we can help it. That sort of behavior wouldn't be tolerated in our guild, but I know there are plenty of folks out there who are unkind.

I think the review system for WoW would be the most valuable for people who pug, and yet most likely to be abused by people in the pug circuit. I don't see a good solution.

[Goatfish]

DPS and HPS are entirely irrelevant without context.

I can do 3k hps and get through a dungeon and I can do 6k hps and not be able to get through the dungeon.

If the tank is pulling one pack at a time, you will have lower dps than if the tank pulls 2-3 packs at a time.

That's why it's called aggregate data. 2 data points can vary wildly, but taking the mean or the average from a dozen runs, or the true aggregate data of hundreds of thousands or millions of runs over time across the player base would give info that is reasonably accurate to reality. This is how all scientific data of any relevance is procured.

You're right, I don't think it means nothing. I think it means less than nothing. There's zero context for that achievement and if somebody with zero IO linked that to me I'd just assume you bought your account in a discount bin off eBay. It's the real world equivalent of applying for the position of head chef at a 3-star Michelin restaurant with a resume that includes ten years as a clerk at Auto Zone. You are not entitled to special treatment because of your past experience, get over yourself.

The more accurate comparison would be applying to a current Michelin star restaurant with many years preciously working at them, but you have been out of the restaurant industry for a few years. WoW has not drastically changed in the past 3 years. It hasn't suddenly turned into a MOBA or a RTS or a Platformer, it is functionally the same game as it was with different tuned numbers. Now you are obviously trying to bait, I see this forum is as full of shitters trying to borderline troll in an attempt to make people mad as it was 3 years ago.

That's why when you have killed one raid boss, you never wipe again to any new bosses. And every progress tier you instantly get to farm, because you've seen a mechanic, so you know how every future boss works....

You need to know the content.

Proving that you know how to learn encounters does not prove that you know how to do a given encounter. What pug groups are looking for, both for raid pugs and M+ pugs, is someone that can demonstrate that they know a given encounter. Not someone who they think is capable of learning it.

If you are looking for a learning environment, it is found with a more consistent group of people, or in very very early pugs before anyone knows. Once a few people know, they will seek others that know. If you expect to join those groups, unlucky. If you seek others that don't know, be aware that they will also usually be able to fill the group with people who know once a tier has gone on for a while.

I've already gone over this. Learning mechanics is one thing, performing in spite of mechanics is another. An good returning player will learn and adapt to new mechanics far faster and more reliably than your average player. I've already done plenty of dungeons with people sitting at 1300-1600 RIO who consistently chill in volcanic, can't position for quake, and pull dps numbers my 186 ele shaman does. If you decline to invite people willing to learn, you are just making the community worse because you would rather get in and get your reward selfishly than play a multiplayer game.

As I already said previously, being able to perform at high content requires people to get into the content. This is why raid groups wipe non-stop to a boss instead of lowering the difficulty to practice. If you want people to get better, they have to overcome challenges and gain experience at the level you want them to be good at. If you are not using the practice of "The zone of proximal development" then you are failing. You need to be doing something hard enough that you can fail at it but does not have a 100% failure rate. The higher the failure chance, the greater the mechanical and psychological reward you get from completion. The problem is that people that don't want to talk to or teach other players are just telling them to go back and do content that isn't challenging and doesn't develop them as players. Then these same people are complaining about how bad the community is when they are actively making it worse instead of better.

[klogaroth]

I've already gone over this. Learning mechanics is one thing, performing in spite of mechanics is another. An good returning player will learn and adapt to new mechanics far faster and more reliably than your average player. I've already done plenty of dungeons with people sitting at 1300-1600 RIO who consistently chill in volcanic, can't position for quake, and pull dps numbers my 186 ele shaman does. If you decline to invite people willing to learn, you are just making the community worse because you would rather get in and get your reward selfishly than play a multiplayer game.

As I already said previously, being able to perform at high content requires people to get into the content. This is why raid groups wipe non-stop to a boss instead of lowering the difficulty to practice. If you want people to get better, they have to overcome challenges and gain experience at the level you want them to be good at. If you are not using the practice of "The zone of proximal development" then you are failing. You need to be doing something hard enough that you can fail at it but does not have a 100% failure rate. The higher the failure chance, the greater the mechanical and psychological reward you get from completion. The problem is that people that don't want to talk to or teach other players are just telling them to go back and do content that isn't challenging and doesn't develop them as players. Then these same people are complaining about how bad the community is when they are actively making it worse instead of better.

Yeah, the pug world doesn't care about that. They want to do the dungeon to get the loot at the end. They want the best possible chance at getting that loot, which doesn't mean teaching or learning. We're deep into farm period. People want to get in, do the dungeon, and get out. You might be super elite amazing gamer player person, but they don't know that, and if you have no way of proving it in current content, they don't care that you used to be good in high school.

You coming on here talking about your past glories certainly isn't going to change their mind. All evidence that pug players gather points them towards this - get someone who can demonstrate current proficiency. Even if you miss out on the amazing person who cannot prove current proficiency, it is worth it to avoid the hundreds of players who you will encounter who will just destroy your run because they have no idea what to do, even if they once knew how to play a decade ago.

Pugs are not there to "make the community better". More permanent social groups are there to do that. Pugs are there because there happen to be 5 people that all want something, usually gear, either directly or in the form of weekly chest. They are held together only by that desire to get that thing. Nothing else. They will almost never speak again afterwards. And this is nothing new. An alliance formed purely to obtain gear is not likely to be stable. Defining a random ass assortment of 5 people who happened to be looking to do a dungeon as "the community" is where this starts and ends, and is complete nonsense. That is not a community. That's just some people in the same place. There's a difference.

[Relapses]

The more accurate comparison would be applying to a current Michelin star restaurant with many years preciously working at them, but you have been out of the restaurant industry for a few years. WoW has not drastically changed in the past 3 years. It hasn't suddenly turned into a MOBA or a RTS or a Platformer, it is functionally the same game as it was with different tuned numbers. Now you are obviously trying to bait, I see this forum is as full of shitters trying to borderline troll in an attempt to make people mad as it was 3 years ago.

Why is the concept of relevant experience for relevant content so alien to you?

I've already gone over this. Learning mechanics is one thing, performing in spite of mechanics is another. An good returning player will learn and adapt to new mechanics far faster and more reliably than your average player. I've already done plenty of dungeons with people sitting at 1300-1600 RIO who consistently chill in volcanic, can't position for quake, and pull dps numbers my 186 ele shaman does. If you decline to invite people willing to learn, you are just making the community worse because you would rather get in and get your reward selfishly than play a multiplayer game.

As I already said previously, being able to perform at high content requires people to get into the content. This is why raid groups wipe non-stop to a boss instead of lowering the difficulty to practice. If you want people to get better, they have to overcome challenges and gain experience at the level you want them to be good at. If you are not using the practice of "The zone of proximal development" then you are failing. You need to be doing something hard enough that you can fail at it but does not have a 100% failure rate. The higher the failure chance, the greater the mechanical and psychological reward you get from completion. The problem is that people that don't want to talk to or teach other players are just telling them to go back and do content that isn't challenging and doesn't develop them as players. Then these same people are complaining about how bad the community is when they are actively making it worse instead of better.

Yeah dude, people are totally declining 186 Ele Shamans from their +15s because they're afraid of "letting them learn." Are you for real?

[Goatfish]

Yeah, the pug world doesn't care about that. They want to do the dungeon to get the loot at the end. They want the best possible chance at getting that loot, which doesn't mean teaching or learning. We're deep into farm period. People want to get in, do the dungeon, and get out. You might be super elite amazing gamer player person, but they don't know that, and if you have no way of proving it in current content, they don't care that you used to be good in high school.

You coming on here talking about your past glories certainly isn't going to change their mind. All evidence that pug players gather points them towards this - get someone who can demonstrate current proficiency. Even if you miss out on the amazing person who cannot prove current proficiency, it is worth it to avoid the hundreds of players who you will encounter who will just destroy your run because they have no idea what to do, even if they once knew how to play a decade ago.

Pugs are not there to "make the community better". More permanent social groups are there to do that. Pugs are there because there happen to be 5 people that all want something, usually gear, either directly or in the form of weekly chest. They are held together only by that desire to get that thing. Nothing else. They will almost never speak again afterwards. And this is nothing new. An alliance formed purely to obtain gear is not likely to be stable. Defining a random ass assortment of 5 people who happened to be looking to do a dungeon as "the community" is where this starts and ends, and is complete nonsense. That is not a community. That's just some people in the same place. There's a difference.

Then the pug community needs to stop complaining about how bad pugs are if they are unwilling to help people get better. End of story. That is what taking responsibility means, you either put up or shut up, otherwise you are the cause of your own misfortune. I've mentored and given advice to hundreds of players over the years because I understand this. Instead of just getting mad that someone isn't playing at your level, you should be using it as an opportunity for growth instead of rage quitting and complaining about it to strangers on the internet.

If someone wants me to link an achievement to prove I am not bad (and keep in mind this isn't for 15's or whatever made-up argument these trolls are assuming, at the time it was for a +6 while my mage main was at about 195 ilvl), and I do not have current achievements because I recently started, what in your opinion should I be linking if not an achievement showing I completed one of the most difficult encounters in the games history while it was still relevant content? This isn't just me reliving the glory days, this is a serious question. I mean using the chef analogy, if I was applying to be a line cook at an Applebee's/ (insert mediocre chain restaurant here), why would I not put the fact that I used to work at a Michelin star restaurant on the resume if it was my most prestigious achievement? I mean if they wanted more recent I could have linked the time I got a free month during BFA and got AOTC in Uldir for kicks. Either way, getting asked that question for 6 when the gear from it is barely relevant to my character is absurd enough as it is, but I was asked purely because I didn't have a lot of RIO experience built up.

Pugs are not there to "make the community better".

This btw is not only crap, but degrading to the WoW community as a whole. It's the same attitude people take when screaming at fast food workers as if they aren't real people. If another human being is using their time to play with you or help you, you don't spit on them. Taking the attitude of "The world can burn down as long as I have some people I enjoy in my bunker" is the exact attitude that is making life shitty for everyone else in and out of game.

[klogaroth]

This btw is not only crap, but degrading to the WoW community as a whole. It's the same attitude people take when screaming at fast food workers as if they aren't real people. If another human being is using their time to play with you or help you, you don't spit on them. Taking the attitude of "The world can burn down as long as I have some people I enjoy in my bunker" is the exact attitude that is making life shitty for everyone else in and out of game.

You misunderstand the purpose of a pug, and the nature of it. Possibly wilfully, but I'll leave that aside.

The purpose of a pug beyond the initial weeks of a tier is to get some reward. Usually gear. The nature is that it is a bunch of random people.

A group leader sees a bunch of applicants. They don't owe the applicants to their group anything. They just want to do a dungeon, without having everyone submit a resume and go through interviews and assessments. Put yourself in their shoes. They want to make a quick decision. What are you bringing to the table that the 90+ other applicants for their dungeon spot aren't? If your plan to distinguish yourself is that you were good a decade ago, then it's just not going to cut it. The whole project is held together only by the desire of the participants to obtain the reward. You don't have to be a dick to people, in fact it's best if you aren't, because that jeopardises the chance of the group sticking together to obtain the rewards. If you were there to socialise though, it would be recruitment for a standing M+ team, or a guild. But pugs are not that. They are a temporary alliance, held together by the promise of a reward, that will almost certainly dissolve after a single play session. A dungeon one night stand.

I'm not sure how you got to screaming at fast food workers from there, but I'd advise that you don't. It's also a different situation entirely. Think not about comparing yourself to a fast food worker, but to a restaurant. With an M+ group leader as a customer. They don't owe any particular restaurant their business. They are going to eat at the restaurant that looks good now, when they want to eat.

[Goatfish]

You misunderstand the purpose of a pug, and the nature of it. Possibly wilfully, but I'll leave that aside.

The purpose of a pug beyond the initial weeks of a tier is to get some reward. Usually gear. The nature is that it is a bunch of random people.

A group leader sees a bunch of applicants. They don't owe the applicants to their group anything. They just want to do a dungeon, without having everyone submit a resume and go through interviews and assessments. Put yourself in their shoes. They want to make a quick decision. What are you bringing to the table that the 90+ other applicants for their dungeon spot aren't? If your plan to distinguish yourself is that you were good a decade ago, then it's just not going to cut it. The whole project is held together only by the desire of the participants to obtain the reward. You don't have to be a dick to people, in fact it's best if you aren't, because that jeopardises the chance of the group sticking together to obtain the rewards. If you were there to socialise though, it would be recruitment for a standing M+ team, or a guild. But pugs are not that. They are a temporary alliance, held together by the promise of a reward, that will almost certainly dissolve after a single play session. A dungeon one night stand.

I'm not sure how you got to screaming at fast food workers from there, but I'd advise that you don't. It's also a different situation entirely. Think not about comparing yourself to a fast food worker, but to a restaurant. With an M+ group leader as a customer. They don't owe any particular restaurant their business. They are going to eat at the restaurant that looks good now, when they want to eat.

I'm saying it's the same as the fast food worker, because any interaction with strangers IRL is temporarily coming together for a common goal. The term "Karen" comes about from people who get angry at the slightest mistake or perceived mistake within obtaining that common goal. This is exactly what people who get angry at other pugs are doing, when at the very least you should be nice, respectful, or quiet as you say. The way to make things better, is to give help or guidance when you know how to give help. That is to say, when the fast food worker gives you kids burger instead of the double cheeseburger you ordered, you talk to them respectfully and don't scream at them. What happens in M+ when any problem emerges is commonly the people that would throw the meal at the workers face and scream for a refund.

Communities come in all sizes and they affect each other. You seem to believe you have the "true nature" of what a pug is, I would respectfully disagree. People play the game for all kinds of reasons and motivations, and what you are doing is making the childish mistake of assuming that everyone understands everything you know in the same way that you understand it.

You completely ignored the direct question to you, so I'll pose it again. I really am curious because you keep shit talking my gaming history for whatever reason. If someone wants me to link an achievement to prove I am not bad (and keep in mind this isn't for 15's or whatever made-up argument these trolls are assuming, at the time it was for a +6 while my mage main was at about 195 ilvl), and I do not have current achievements because I recently started, what in your opinion should I be linking if not an achievement showing I completed one of the most difficult encounters in the games history while it was still relevant content?

[Thetruth1400]

There has to be a solution for players like that who are purposely ruining other players keys...

A few potential solutions I could think of honestly.

1) Improve the matchmaking system and put a hidden SSR rating based on what you have completed, your ilvl, and how well you do comparatively to others of the same spec as you. Then when you enter the dungeon queue, it tries to put you in a similar skill level group and tells you, "Hey, this group can probably only manage a +7."

If you want to do something higher at that point it's on the person to put together a group without the help of the match maker system. People doing group finding the manual way then have to accept that you don't know what you're going to get.

2) The carrot approach. Make the rewards for finishing a dungeon more valuable to the point people want to stay in them. It could be simple as a little extra Valor for completing a dungeon that you don't time.

3) The stick approach. Make an ever increasing timer for people who leave before a dungeon timer runs out that blocks them from entering dungeons. 1 hr, 2 hr, 4 hrs, 8 hrs, etc. doubling every time. If you leave 10 dungeons before the timer is up, you're essentially locked out of dungeons for 3 weeks. If you want to leave after the timer has expired but before the dungeon is finished, a simple 30 minute lockout should suffice.

[Bloodyleech]

A few potential solutions I could think of honestly.

1) Improve the matchmaking system and put a hidden SSR rating based on what you have completed, your ilvl, and how well you do comparatively to others of the same spec as you. Then when you enter the dungeon queue, it tries to put you in a similar skill level group and tells you, "Hey, this group can probably only manage a +7."

If you want to do something higher at that point it's on the person to put together a group without the help of the match maker system. People doing group finding the manual way then have to accept that you don't know what you're going to get.

2) The carrot approach. Make the rewards for finishing a dungeon more valuable to the point people want to stay in them. It could be simple as a little extra Valor for completing a dungeon that you don't time.

3) The stick approach. Make an ever increasing timer for people who leave before a dungeon timer runs out that blocks them from entering dungeons. 1 hr, 2 hr, 4 hrs, 8 hrs, etc. doubling every time. If you leave 10 dungeons before the timer is up, you're essentially locked out of dungeons for 3 weeks. If you want to leave after the timer has expired but before the dungeon is finished, a simple 30 minute lockout should suffice.

#1 Tanks/Healer wouldn't use them, except if they are new too - even then the pure random group making is not attractive.
#2 Valor is capped, extra valor would be worthless. The rewards would have to be really really big - even with something like 10k gold I wouldn't finish a dungeon with people who can't use their braincells and take 1-2h for a clear. Time is worth more than anything Blizz can give me.
#3 Ok, I won't leave, instead afk, or pull stuff, or just autoshot [....].
Next

[klogaroth]

I'm saying it's the same as the fast food worker, because any interaction with strangers IRL is temporarily coming together for a common goal. The term "Karen" comes about from people who get angry at the slightest mistake or perceived mistake within obtaining that common goal. This is exactly what people who get angry at other pugs are doing, when at the very least you should be nice, respectful, or quiet as you say. The way to make things better, is to give help or guidance when you know how to give help. That is to say, when the fast food worker gives you kids burger instead of the double cheeseburger you ordered, you talk to them respectfully and don't scream at them. What happens in M+ when any problem emerges is commonly the people that would throw the meal at the workers face and scream for a refund.

Communities come in all sizes and they affect each other. You seem to believe you have the "true nature" of what a pug is, I would respectfully disagree. People play the game for all kinds of reasons and motivations, and what you are doing is making the childish mistake of assuming that everyone understands everything you know in the same way that you understand it.

You completely ignored the direct question to you, so I'll pose it again. I really am curious because you keep shit talking my gaming history for whatever reason. If someone wants me to link an achievement to prove I am not bad (and keep in mind this isn't for 15's or whatever made-up argument these trolls are assuming, at the time it was for a +6 while my mage main was at about 195 ilvl), and I do not have current achievements because I recently started, what in your opinion should I be linking if not an achievement showing I completed one of the most difficult encounters in the games history while it was still relevant content?

Are there people that kick up a fuss when leaving? For sure. But leaving in and of itself is perfectly fine. You can walk out of a restaurant without kicking up a fuss if the service is poor. That's what people are doing a lot of the time when they leave M+ groups. They had certain expectations, those weren't met, they leave. People aren't obligated to give custom to a restaurant with poor service, they don't have to be nasty about it, but they're free to go elsewhere. Same in M+. They are strangers on the internet. Exactly how much obligation do you think they're going to have? Also remember that any obligation placed upon them is also placed upon you, and you bind yourself to strangers on the internet. Is that a situation you really want to be in, where you can't just walk away? Because you don't know them ahead of time. You could be tying yourself to anyone.

If you're trying to join groups that require you to have something current, you are clashing in goals. It is clear that you don't understand what it is they are looking for. They want a group of people with current knowledge, and the supply of applicants is such that they can get that. You are part of a surplus supply, when there is limited demand. Their requirements aren't set in a vacuum. They are set by the sort of applicants they will get to their group. You need to worry not about some hard minimum requirement for the content, but to consider who else is in that queue with you. To make matters worse, say groups for no reason at all start inviting people much more freely, it's going to lower their success rate. It's going to make the M+ leavers problem worse. Sure, *you* might be the exceptional diamond in the rough, but filling a group with people who don't know the current content, at this point in a tier, without explicitly stating that it's a learning group? That's going to cause failure and conflict.

If you are looking to progress, you need to find a way to connect with other people in similar situations. Whether that comes in the form of eventually finding that through group finder, other in game channels, guilds, communities, discords, forums, wherever.

There are plenty of group finder listings where there is a spot in the group for a tiny fraction of the applicants. Even by random dice roll you could spend half an evening applying to groups before you got in one. You need to either be in the group at the start, bypass that system entirely, or find some way to stand out as the best person in the queue. Old achievements just don't do that, bearing in mind that in many cases there are plenty of people in the queue with old and new achievements. You aren't the only person to clear past content.

To move through content without prior experience you either need to invest absurd amounts of time hoping to get lucky, do it with a foundation of some sort of semi stable group, or be there when it releases. Having to compete against other applicants and prove yourself in some way every single time you want to do a dungeon is always going to take ages. There's no way around it.

[Tziva]

You completely ignored the direct question to you, so I'll pose it again. I really am curious because you keep shit talking my gaming history for whatever reason. If someone wants me to link an achievement to prove I am not bad (and keep in mind this isn't for 15's or whatever made-up argument these trolls are assuming, at the time it was for a +6 while my mage main was at about 195 ilvl), and I do not have current achievements because I recently started, what in your opinion should I be linking if not an achievement showing I completed one of the most difficult encounters in the games history while it was still relevant content?

Nothing. You don't link anything because you don't have anything relevant.

What matters most in m+ is experience. The fact you did high level content once is nice on your overall WoW resume and might reflect you have potential to someone, say, building a raid team, but is nearly meaningless in a context where what people care about is that you know boss mechanics, interrupt priority, skips, etc. The fact the achievement is also super old just makes its relevance even less.

The most useful thing you can do for getting into keystones when you're getting back into the game after a long time is just starting with low keys and working your way up. People are significantly less discerning on gear or experience levels there, so getting invites isn't too hard and should only take a handful of signups before you find yourself in a group. Low keys are invaluable because they will teach you the critical things in a context where a mistake isn't the end of the world. They also generally are lenient enough on time that people can toss one line explanations in chat if you say you need them. It's also helpful in that it will build score which will help you get invites to PuGs far more than any achievement ever would.

Luckily, in my experience people asking you to link achievements to get invites to M+ is exceedingly rare, probably because the most relevant achievements are usually reflected in raider.io score which doesn't require someone to link in order to see it. So this whole scenario of being worried about what to link is so niche anyway you might not even ever encounter it again.

[Goatfish]

Nothing. You don't link anything because you don't have anything relevant.

What matters most in m+ is experience. The fact you did high level content once is nice on your overall WoW resume and might reflect you have potential to someone, say, building a raid team, but is nearly meaningless in a context where what people care about is that you know boss mechanics, interrupt priority, skips, etc. The fact the achievement is also super old just makes its relevance even less.

The most useful thing you can do for getting into keystones when you're getting back into the game after a long time is just starting with low keys and working your way up. People are significantly less discerning on gear or experience levels there, so getting invites isn't too hard and should only take a handful of signups before you find yourself in a group. Low keys are invaluable because they will teach you the critical things in a context where a mistake isn't the end of the world. They also generally are lenient enough on time that people can toss one line explanations in chat if you say you need them. It's also helpful in that it will build score which will help you get invites to PuGs far more than any achievement ever would.

Luckily, in my experience people asking you to link achievements to get invites to M+ is exceedingly rare, probably because the most relevant achievements are usually reflected in raider.io score which doesn't require someone to link in order to see it. So this whole scenario of being worried about what to link is so niche anyway you might not even ever encounter it again.

It doesn't matter how niche it is if several people on these forums are shit talking me for telling a story. It's like saying someone who used to be a core raider in Method is suddenly a shitter and their former experience means nothing. It's just flat wrong. That's why I posed the question in the first place, if someone thinks linking a heroic dungeon achievement would be worth more even though the difficulty isn't even on the same planet, I would heartily disagree. If I were asking for someone to link an achievement for a Plaguefall Mythic, and one person links me Death's Demise and another person links me Heroic Plaguefall, I'm taking the Death's Demise because heroic Plaguefall is a joke and anyone who has levelled to 60 has almost undoubtedly done the dungeon on normal for xp and has seen basic mechanics and layout/path at least once.

Maybe I'm in the minority in thinking that the mechanics in these dungeons are pretty obvious and that about a 6 mythic are what heroics should have been in the first place. As it stands, heroics are in this weird spot where they are practically useless both for experience and for loot.

At the end of the day, we can have a difference in opinion and play our own ways. This is a game, and I am perfectly able to tell others that I dislike their attitude without saying they have to change it. I'm just pointing out that that attitude is helping create the problem they so often complain about, if they don't want to see that, then it's no skin off my back.

[erifwodahs]

Death's Demise

Says literally nothing to most of us. Wouldn't invite people by achievement. There are plenty of people farming valor with proven experience.

[Basileus]

If I were asking for someone to link an achievement for a Plaguefall Mythic, and one person links me Death's Demise and another person links me Heroic Plaguefall, I'm taking the Death's Demise

And this is where most people will disagree with you. As impressive as DD is, it's also over 10 years old. At least the heroic plaguefall has seen all the mechanics, whereas all the mechanics aren't in the dungeon on normal. If you want groups, play the content and push up yourself.

[Tziva]

It doesn't matter how niche it is if several people on these forums are shit talking me for telling a story. It's like saying someone who used to be a core raider in Method is suddenly a shitter and their former experience means nothing. It's just flat wrong. That's why I posed the question in the first place, if someone thinks linking a heroic dungeon achievement would be worth more even though the difficulty isn't even on the same planet, I would heartily disagree. If I were asking for someone to link an achievement for a Plaguefall Mythic, and one person links me Death's Demise and another person links me Heroic Plaguefall, I'm taking the Death's Demise because heroic Plaguefall is a joke and anyone who has levelled to 60 has almost undoubtedly done the dungeon on normal for xp and has seen basic mechanics and layout/path at least once.

It does matter if it is niche, because this is not a scenario that would actually happen in reality. No one is going to be linking a heroic plaguefall or a death's demise achievement for a mythic plaguefall. If it's a zero or a super low key, people are going to be inviting by comp or ilvl because achievements are irrelevant and evaluating them is too much effort for entry level content. If its a higher key, they are going to be inviting by score. Arguing about whether a heroic PF achievement is worth more than a DD feat is just a silly waste of time because that's a debate that would literally never crop up in actual pug building. People don't use achievements for keystones (like they might for raids) and certainly not ones that have almost no relevance on the content and difficulty being prepared for.

Maybe I'm in the minority in thinking that the mechanics in these dungeons are pretty obvious.

There are certainly mechanics that are obvious (largely everything in the "that is bad, don't stand in it" category), but there are also lots that aren't. But keystones are about more than just knowing mechanics anyway. You also need to know general strategies and routes, kill priority, interrupt priority, and little nuances like knowing which mobs are going to run when they get low and maybe pull stuff that is going to fuck your count, or which abilities not to interrupt. All of that you only get from experience in the dungeon itself.

[Goatfish]

It does matter if it is niche, because this is not a scenario that would actually happen in reality. No one is going to be linking a heroic plaguefall or a death's demise achievement for a mythic plaguefall. If it's a zero or a super low key, people are going to be inviting by comp or ilvl because achievements are irrelevant and evaluating them is too much effort for entry level content. If its a higher key, they are going to be inviting by score. Arguing about whether a heroic PF achievement is worth more than a DD feat is just a silly waste of time because that's a debate that would literally never crop up in actual pug building. People don't use achievements for keystones (like they might for raids) and certainly not ones that have almost no relevance on the content and difficulty being prepared for.


There are certainly mechanics that are obvious (largely everything in the "that is bad, don't stand in it" category), but there are also lots that aren't. But keystones are about more than just knowing mechanics anyway. You also need to know general strategies and routes, kill priority, interrupt priority, and little nuances like knowing which mobs are going to run when they get low and maybe pull stuff that is going to fuck your count, or which abilities not to interrupt. All of that you only get from experience in the dungeon itself.

"Not going to happen in reality", so apparently I'm a liar for no apparent reason. It's one heck of a story to make up just for kicks, but believe what you want. As far as mechanics being obvious or not, in lower keys many of these mechanics get off anyway and there is plenty of opportunity to learn, and a good player will learn and adapt quickly. I mean it took me one time seeing "Drain Fluids" in Necrotic Wake to understand it had priority kick/kill target. The same goes for any other ability that inconveniences the group in any way. An old achievement of that magnitude is also a sign that I've played enough to know what other classes can do or not do and how to interact with a group and change strategies based off what tank, healer, or dps I might have.

There are enough mechanics that are screwed up even by people who have seen them a hundred times that an adaptive player is always better than one who has experience. The issues you are bringing up are literally noob mistakes such as dps pulling mobs instead of the tank or having 0 situational awareness. Again, different strokes for different folks. I have never been talking about doing high keys, that is a straw man you and others on this thread have constantly been bringing up in an attempt to prove me "wrong" even though that has never been the subject I've been talking about. You can keep pretending I'm arguing for inviting fresh 60's with old achievements to M15+'s or Mythic Nathria, but that has never been the case and you are wrong to make that argument.

I will say, thanks for agreeing that people need to get experience in the dungeon itself in order to obtain that experience. This is my biggest argument. You can't learn to heal a +15 by constantly doing M0's or even M5's. You have to experience the content to have experience in the content, which is why I have issue with people who will only invite 210ilvl for normal CN or people who farm +15's to their +9. To me those are just people hoping for a carry and it does nothing to increase the pool of players good enough to do said content.