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  1. #1221
    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    1. Currently there is no system to distinguish a returning player from a new player let alone, a returning experienced player from a returning inexperienced player.
    2. True but the issue at hand is you can get experience on your own time and not on "mine". It's very much like the real world where jobs want prior experience for the position they are offering. Essentially, we want experienced with the current system and if you don't have it, then you need to earn that experience first then join the rest of us.
    2a. In accordance with having to earn the experience first, that's why many of us provide the tip: Make your own groups. This way you can get the experience and be in relative control of whom you want in your groups. Maybe you want to play mentor so you'll just invite the first 4 people that apply regardless of ilv, r.io score or achievements. For the rest of us, we like to use some sort of metric to help minimize risk of a poor or incomplete run.
    3. That's more on how players use r.io than the system itself. As we've seen on the PTR, M+ score is coming in 9.1 and the same negative arguments against r.io will be shifted over to M+ score once we get to 9.1 and beyond.
    4. Good luck in changing the community. I'm pretty sure they are set in their ways and are unlikely to change in any meaningful way.
    1: Old achievements, Warcraft Logs, WoW Armory. The systems are there but aren't used because they aren't convenient in a queue, which again, being able to differentiate or be guaranteed an invite was never my argument.
    2: Is the selfish attitude I was talking about. "I'm better so none of my dungeons should ever fail and I shouldn't have to teach or help anyone ever." Not every dungeon is a do or die situation where you specifically need to time it. If you are using pugging as an effort to push your own keys to high levels, you really should get a solid group instead.
    3/4: Where have I said that I want to change it? I'm merely calling it out for what it is, because if people want to change it, they have to be the change.


    1. Players don't have an obligation to be teachers/mentors. Sure it could be nice, but that's not their role. That's why we have a new guide system in WoW. You want teachers/mentors then start your search there.
    3. Old achievements also don't matter in current because it's no longer current (and outdated). If you compare any raid encounter from Classic at the highest difficulty of Classic and compare it to say the mechanics of Mythic Denathrius, you can easily see how much more difficult current content is. In fact, there's an article write up somewhere a healer (I think) posted about how much WoW has evolved in fight mechanics to the point where DBM/BigWigs is absolutely necessary because of so many mechanics to keep track of.
    4. It's not that you need to learn the content before you go do the content but rather learn the content on someone else's time instead of mine.
    5. If you want supportive of players then your best avenue to find it is within a guild or a community of like-minded players. You're not likely going to find that in a PuG.
    1: They aren't required, but if people spend their time complaining about how bad pugs are instead of spending that same amount of time helping them... They are only making things worse for everyone. Some people pick up litter on the street when they see it, and others just walk past. If nobody picks up the litter, then we are going to be in a trash heap.
    3: It depends on the achievement honestly. M'uru from Sunwell, Yogg+0 in Ulduar, H-Putricide and H-LK from ICC or even Mythic Cenarius/Xavius were way tougher than really anything I have seen in CN so far, granted I haven't stepped into mythic CN yet. Again though, you are one of those people comparing the extremes of an argument no one ever made. If someone is 197 ilvl with no experience in N-CN, there is no real reason why they shouldn't get an invite unless you are selfishly looking for an anima farm run. It's entirely possible to purposefully bring 1-5 in your raid pug to help get them that experience as well. I'm not saying it's required, but it helps the pug community as a whole get better players, and helps motivate those with a will to get better to do so.
    4: refer to answer 1.
    5: refer to answer 1.

  2. #1222
    Quote Originally Posted by Goatfish View Post
    1: They aren't required, but if people spend their time complaining about how bad pugs are instead of spending that same amount of time helping them... They are only making things worse for everyone. Some people pick up litter on the street when they see it, and others just walk past. If nobody picks up the litter, then we are going to be in a trash heap..
    The only ones who complain about "bad pugs" are one or more of the following:

    1. People that are unable to use the available tools to select which groups to join or which people to invite to your group.
    2. People that are entitled and lack self-awareness. They expect other players to carry them and get very angry when better players won't play with them or when they get in to a group that doesn't fit their entitled view of themselves.
    3. People that before had it much easier to "trick" their way in to groups with much more experienced people and thereby get carried. With the advent of good tools like logs and raider.io and the increasing awareness amongst the players that care about their performance and who respect the time of their fellow gamer about the pitfalls of playing with entitled people the leeches have it much more difficult today.

    People that don't complain about "bad pugs" usually fit all of the following criteria:

    1. People who are able to judge the quality of the groups they join and the applicants to their own group.
    2. People who are self-aware and who play with people with similar experience and goals, even in pugs.
    3. People who care about their performance and respect the time of their fellow gamer and who, even in pugs, play with people of a similar mind-set

    It is not my "job" as a player that cares about my performance and who respects the time of my fellow gamer to teach anyone anything.
    Any person who is self-aware and has the absolute minimum of social and in-game skills will recognize that he has to learn for himself and acquire experience for himself. And such a person will start to play with people on his own level and work his way up.
    If you are very skilled then that "climb" can be done very fast.

    So to sum it up:
    If you consistently get bad pugs then it is 100% a YOU-problem.

  3. #1223
    Herald of the Titans Alroxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goatfish View Post
    2: Is the selfish attitude I was talking about. "I'm better so none of my dungeons should ever fail and I shouldn't have to teach or help anyone ever." Not every dungeon is a do or die situation where you specifically need to time it. If you are using pugging as an effort to push your own keys to high levels, you really should get a solid group instead.
    And again I would underscore the importance that not ever PuG is supposed to be a teaching/mentoring resource. The baseline in a PuG is that there is a common goal which is typically to finish the dungeon in time. That expects that each PuG member is prepared, skilled and experienced.

    Like many others have said, we're not opposed to learning PuGs or teaching PuGs. Instead what we are opposed to is converting all our PuG runs into a teaching runs.

    If anything, if you want to as a group leader, you can advertise your own runs as "learning" or teaching and nobody here would fault you for it. Because it's your personal led run. But to expect other group leaders to do the same is a fallacy. In general, most people who are doing keys want players that are skilled and experienced in the current M+ content. Knowing the strategies/routes/tips/tricks ahead of time and the best way to accumulate that knowledge is to do a lot of dungeons.

    Sure some players might pick up the knowledge and skills faster than others but there's no way to measure potential player ability. So we fall on what has been achieved already by examining player progression so far such as r.io (and in 9.1, M+ score).



    Quote Originally Posted by Goatfish View Post
    1: They aren't required, but if people spend their time complaining about how bad pugs are instead of spending that same amount of time helping them... They are only making things worse for everyone. Some people pick up litter on the street when they see it, and others just walk past. If nobody picks up the litter, then we are going to be in a trash heap.
    Perhaps, but isn't there already people who "pick up trash"? Sanitation workers? Janitors? Conversely, there are communities for which their primary goal is to help teach players. See for instance, Mythic Plus Friends (http://www.mythicplusfriends.website/) and their discord community.


    Quote Originally Posted by Goatfish View Post
    3: It depends on the achievement honestly. M'uru from Sunwell, Yogg+0 in Ulduar, H-Putricide and H-LK from ICC or even Mythic Cenarius/Xavius were way tougher than really anything I have seen in CN so far, granted I haven't stepped into mythic CN yet.
    The other problem with old achievements is that it's also kinda moot. For instance, I could go right now on my level 60 and get Yogg+0 without a problem. Because I greatly outlevel that content. You would need to somehow check old achievements with the time frame (aka earn when they were relevant) to even be worthwhile.

    As for compare contrast: Let's take Yogg vs Denathrius -

    For Yogg, wowhead puts up about a paragraph of mechanics? (https://www.wowhead.com/ulduar-achie...net-yogg-saron)

    versus

    Mythic Denathrius - (https://www.wowhead.com/guides/mythi...thria-strategy)

    Several pages plus images plus changes/assignments. Granted there's also a section on loot tables but even so, it's still a much more mechanics heavy fight than Yogg.



    Point being that modern wow is more complex than classic wow's content. Skills/knowledge of Heroic Halls of Reflection don't necessarily equate to the skill/knowledge needed in say +10 Sanguine Depths on a Tyrannical, Raging, Quaking, Prideful affix week. Sure some skills come in handy like LoS pulls but invis pots? Route planning to grab extra mobs to allow for prideful right before the Tyrannical bosses, there's no older content equivalence.
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  4. #1224
    Old achievements don't tell you anything about a player's current skill for several reasons.
    1. The game has changed sufficiently in complexity and difficulty that the skills used to get those achievements are not necessarily applicable today
    2. If you haven't been playing in the interim at the same level, then it is likely those skills (insofar as they are relevant) have atrophied. I am nowhere near as good at Halo, CTR as I was when I played them everyday however many years ago. The same is true of WoW
    3. Experience, rather than skill, is king. Not experience of past dungeons or raids, but rather the content you are doing now. Its not enough to have done dungeons on M0 and say that is good enough to know the mechanics. There are mechanics you barely notice at 18+ which become lethal at 21+. People want experience relevant to the content they are doing. No matter how good you are, if you don't have the relevant experience you will almost certainly be worse than someone with that experience.

  5. #1225
    I never liked a timed system to begin with. Even in the early stages people would rage cause stuff didn't go perfect. And a few runs past timer plenty of deaths and everyone had more fun just trying to enjoy a harder dungeon.

    Give people a stacking deserter penalty. Vote option to give up maybe and save the key on a CD.
    "I'm Tru @ w/e I do" ~ TM

  6. #1226
    How about just letting people get replaced within a dungeon? Sure it would help boosters, but it would allow leavers to be replaced. The timer could pause the second a person leaves and would start again once the group is full again.

  7. #1227
    Quote Originally Posted by Sugarcube View Post
    so you can kick people on the last boss and bring your friend in? no thanks...
    Maybe don't allow kicking in m+?

  8. #1228
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lathspell View Post
    Maybe don't allow kicking in m+?
    So instead of kicking people who are griefing the key, I have to leave and make everyone else leave..? Cool

  9. #1229
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntermyth View Post
    they are not purposefully ruining other people's keys, they just don't care.
    Or embarrassed. If I failed an easy mechanic three times, I'd be embarrassed enough to want to leave. I'd probably asked to be kicked.
    I'm a crazy taco.

  10. #1230
    The Unstoppable Force Bakis's Avatar
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    Something can be done, lower the threshold for bans. Keep a history, if ppl even DC or leave 2 times in said amount of time, just ban them for 3 days.
    No I dont give a shit if someone got dodgy internet, 4 other people dont need to suffer cos of they egoism.
    Last edited by Bakis; 2021-07-03 at 12:08 AM.
    But soon after Mr Xi secured a third term, Apple released a new version of the feature in China, limiting its scope. Now Chinese users of iPhones and other Apple devices are restricted to a 10-minute window when receiving files from people who are not listed as a contact. After 10 minutes, users can only receive files from contacts.
    Apple did not explain why the update was first introduced in China, but over the years, the tech giant has been criticised for appeasing Beijing.

  11. #1231
    Quote Originally Posted by Bakis View Post
    Something can be done, lower the threshold for bans. Keep a history, if ppl even DC or leave 2 times in said amount of time, just ban them for 3 days.
    No I dont give a shit if someone got dodgy internet, 4 other people dont need to suffer cos of they egoism.
    I'm not gonna carry your failed run. I'm sorry it is never going to happen...

  12. #1232
    The Unstoppable Force Bakis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krakan View Post
    I'm not gonna carry your failed run. I'm sorry it is never going to happen...
    That would make more sense if it wasnt for .io but lets ignore .io a bit and focus on the core.
    You join or accept players into a M+ and it doesnt go the way you want.
    It still comes down to you fucking it up for 4 other players by your choice, they didnt have any choice.

    Its imperfect I agree but cutting to the chase it comes down to you joining, then decide to leave fucking the rest over.
    It has to be the lesser of two evils.
    Last edited by Bakis; 2021-07-04 at 07:38 PM.
    But soon after Mr Xi secured a third term, Apple released a new version of the feature in China, limiting its scope. Now Chinese users of iPhones and other Apple devices are restricted to a 10-minute window when receiving files from people who are not listed as a contact. After 10 minutes, users can only receive files from contacts.
    Apple did not explain why the update was first introduced in China, but over the years, the tech giant has been criticised for appeasing Beijing.

  13. #1233
    Quote Originally Posted by Bakis View Post
    That would make more sense if it wasnt for .io but lets ignore .io a bit and focus on the core.
    You join or accept players into a M+ and it doesnt go the way you want.
    It still comes down to you fucking it up for 4 other players by your choice, they didnt have any choice.

    Its imperfect I agree but cutting to the chase it comes down to you joining, then decide to leave fucking the rest over.
    It has to be the lesser of two evils.
    Enslaving players you lure into your run isnt the lesser evil..

  14. #1234
    The Unstoppable Force Bakis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krakan View Post
    Enslaving players you lure into your run isnt the lesser evil..
    Noone forced them to join or am I mistaken?
    Its the core problem, carrying suck but so is leaving when voluntarily the game.
    Dont be an idiot when joining and create your own group.
    But soon after Mr Xi secured a third term, Apple released a new version of the feature in China, limiting its scope. Now Chinese users of iPhones and other Apple devices are restricted to a 10-minute window when receiving files from people who are not listed as a contact. After 10 minutes, users can only receive files from contacts.
    Apple did not explain why the update was first introduced in China, but over the years, the tech giant has been criticised for appeasing Beijing.

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