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  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by Mic_128 View Post
    Do we know whose soul was used in it's creation?
    Do we know if they somehow morphed Shalamayne into that? Or did they just happen to craft a weapon that looks like it?

    Either way, there's an obvious answer to your question which I hope isn't the correct one.

    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Cheers. Would fit after the defeat of the final raidboss though, that is why I asked.

    I understand what the people say who are hating it - I just have no clue what they really expect? First it is all "She will be Garrosh 2.0...it is all shit" - now it is "Oh..a Snape arc...it is shit"

    What do ppl expect? What stories do they actually like? When did they actually ever like WoW - since it really never was grand and epic storytelling like you get in books or well done movies? I mean..sure...the obvious answer is "during WC3 and Frozen Throne" - but I can apply my snarkiness to that as well...how we have seen the cheese of the Prince son murdering the King Father because reasons has been done to death.

    We just were not judgemental assholes in 1999 or so like we are now, I guess.
    Snape wasn't evil for 99% of the story and had a sudden change of heart at the last minute.

    They said she would have justification and wouldn't go full Garrosh. She went full Garrosh for no given reason. Now they're trying to show that she was mistaken/misled/manipulated, and might try to go for a redemption arc.

    Both stories undermine her intelligence and free will, which originally defined her character (at least on paper, she never did anything particularly smart), and both stories have been written fairly incompetently. It's not just the content of the story, which one could judge on its own and say "seems fairly standard", it's how it's announced, introduced, paced and mixed with the rest of the story that shows that they're improvising and making hard turns every couple of patches, which will make any story inconsistent and bad.
    Last edited by Soulwind; 2021-01-03 at 01:13 PM.

  2. #182
    Sigh.

    This is it. This is what we're called to bear.

    After all, what are we but slaves to this torment of writing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    Sylvanas before and during BfA:
    Not a hint of remorse or hesitation with regards to her victims.

    Sylvanas during these cinematics:
    "But I really don't wanna take away the choice from the golden boy! I'm not all that bad! I have a health sense of empathy!"

    They're like two different characters and you don't get to abruptly turn the wheel from one expansion to another.
    Yeah, basically. Ruthless Sylvanas up until 2018, I guess? And from there on, whatever this is. A character who made some whoopsies and has second thoughts after allying with Anti-Life, the beast of Judgement.

    As it stands, this other character that's being presented to us has no purpose and is not Sylvanas. Already wasn't after the retcons.

    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    1. they are not white washing her, they are making her an actual real life villian, someone who sometimes has regrets, and is not just ultimate evil to be ultimate evil, she is evil to do something.
    Lad.
    She was evil with a purpose. This purpose, before the despicable retcon that made her into the proxy of this nonexistant big bad death evil, was the survival of the Forsaken and their preservation - and hers - at any cost. The whole ethos of the race changed from strict vengeance with the creation of an unrelenting, ruthless military force and armed with things that would hurt both the living and the dead, to survival and finding a place to live while coping with the fact that their existance became meaningless and they did the unthinkable, although that's way less of a problem.

    This is the problem of retcons: those hurt all the characters involved. And this is not considering Sylvanas being at least a divisive character.


    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    . It took one meeting with Anduin to convince some of Sylvanas's most stern supporters in the Desolate Council to return to Stormwind with their families. All the breaking of their wills, the sapping of their hope over years, overpowered.
    How so very wholesome.

    The bleak, grim view of the Council, again nonexistant before this whole charade, sprouted by the mistreatment of the Alliance towards the Forsaken. And I can understand seeing them as monsters after the equivalent of the apocalypse washed over the Eastern Kingdoms. What I cannot accept is that all it takes is Anduin going "but there's hope!".

    And I think I'll stop here because I did not think there would be this much passion left in me towards a story I detached from years ago. But I'm this close to start about all that's wrong about Calia Menethil and I have groceries to do.

    Damn adult life.
    Am I a slave to that torment as well?

  3. #183
    So, well.
    As for the literature and culture, the same motiff was played all along. Remember that Sylvanas is undead herself - and being actually dead makes you suffer internally all the time. Look at it as for pattern that was put on yourself. This pattern doesn't belong, it itches, scratches, makes you angry, it's twisting your emotions all the time. It's constantly tormenting you with phantasmal mirrors, emotions, past itself. It burns like hell.
    In Sylvanas' case, well, she was holding this for too long and her deeds are abominable, her deeds are monstrous, yet - despite Garrosh - she wasn't herself, there's no "herself" anymore - it died with Ranger-General. She is a monster and she knows it. Glimpses of her past are haunting her, because she's trying to love someone... even if it's her sisters or just Nathanos "Fuck-You-"Champion"" Blightcaller.
    At Teldrassil, past filled her with rage.
    Here... it's more like sadness of her past, because proto-Sylvanas, classic WoW Sylvanas was more sad than angry. She has everything she could possibly dream of in her state, yet she hesitates, because this sadness went through her undead skin, not twisted.
    You guys said Darth Vader, Severus Snape, I will rather say it's Sandor Clegane from A Song of Ice and Fire. Everybody loves Hound, even he's so twisted that we cannot love him fully (he killed many innocent people, but yet, we pitied him).

  4. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by Demsi View Post
    bro they made Frostmourne 2
    Shalamourne, wielded by the Scourgest Rangedeath General Sylvanas Windrunner, gets pointed at the chest of the one who foiled her plans to conquer the entirety of Azeroth and forced her hand one time too many.

    Will she bind his soul to be an immortal, tormented Mawshee? Will the cycle be complete? Oh, the drama.

    Sylvanas Windrunner would have stabbed the dog then and there, both as a living breathing elf and especially so as the Banshee Queen. This forced parallel, albeit nice, is wasted on a literal no build up.

  5. #185
    Just imagine it. Last patch cycle. We prepare to invade whatever final raid it will be in the Maw and we find... Stormwind. Anduin convinced jailer to see things his way and now every mawsworn turned into human and honored Anduin by turning entire Shadowlands into Elwyn Forest.

  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    Man...Anduins exposition didn't feel natural at all. But ofc he knows everything why someone else does something... ugh.
    Anduin read all the new novels.

  7. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by Soulwind View Post

    Both stories undermine her intelligence and free will, which originally defined her character (at least on paper, she never did anything particularly smart), and both stories have been written fairly incompetently. It's not just the content of the story, which one could judge on its own and say "seems fairly standard", it's how it's announced, introduced, paced and mixed with the rest of the story that shows that they're improvising and making hard turns every couple of patches, which will make any story inconsistent and bad.
    This. Excellently said. This is what pains me the most about this whole thing.

  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by Devvra View Post
    So, well.
    As for the literature and culture, the same motiff was played all along. Remember that Sylvanas is undead herself - and being actually dead makes you suffer internally all the time. Look at it as for pattern that was put on yourself. This pattern doesn't belong, it itches, scratches, makes you angry, it's twisting your emotions all the time. It's constantly tormenting you with phantasmal mirrors, emotions, past itself. It burns like hell.
    In Sylvanas' case, well, she was holding this for too long and her deeds are abominable, her deeds are monstrous, yet - despite Garrosh - she wasn't herself, there's no "herself" anymore - it died with Ranger-General. She is a monster and she knows it. Glimpses of her past are haunting her, because she's trying to love someone... even if it's her sisters or just Nathanos "Fuck-You-"Champion"" Blightcaller.
    At Teldrassil, past filled her with rage.
    Here... it's more like sadness of her past, because proto-Sylvanas, classic WoW Sylvanas was more sad than angry. She has everything she could possibly dream of in her state, yet she hesitates, because this sadness went through her undead skin, not twisted.
    You guys said Darth Vader, Severus Snape, I will rather say it's Sandor Clegane from A Song of Ice and Fire. Everybody loves Hound, even he's so twisted that we cannot love him fully (he killed many innocent people, but yet, we pitied him).
    And even Hound died in the end. Plus we do know that being undead does not stop you from being a good person, take a look at Faol for example. Being put in "wrong" state is an excuse... To a certain point and she passed that point so long ago that it makes no difference now.

  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackstraw View Post
    The bleak, grim view of the Council, again nonexistant before this whole charade
    Yessir, Sylvanas never once broke the will of her forsaken and ruled through silent threats and fear prior to BFA. Nottaonce.


    (12:54)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ONCHEhap View Post
    I knew they were going to Kerrigan Sylvanas.

    Didn't see the Arthas parallel coming though,I guess I underestimated how much the modern WoW writers love rehashing old narratives
    We still killed Arthas.
    Quote Originally Posted by Daevelian View Post
    So this is how far the Lore forum has fallen? Eesh.
    I take it back, BfA is not the lowest the games lore could have gone, this thread proves that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    And just like the thread before it, let's back away from sexualizing Azshara and return to the original topic at hand.

  10. #190
    To infinity and beyond det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulwind View Post
    Do we know if they somehow morphed Shalamayne into that? Or did they just happen to craft a weapon that looks like it?

    Either way, there's an obvious answer to your question which I hope isn't the correct one.



    Snape wasn't evil for 99% of the story and had a sudden change of heart at the last minute.

    They said she would have justification and wouldn't go full Garrosh. She went full Garrosh for no given reason. Now they're trying to show that she was mistaken/misled/manipulated, and might try to go for a redemption arc.

    Both stories undermine her intelligence and free will, which originally defined her character (at least on paper, she never did anything particularly smart), and both stories have been written fairly incompetently. It's not just the content of the story, which one could judge on its own and say "seems fairly standard", it's how it's announced, introduced, paced and mixed with the rest of the story that shows that they're improvising and making hard turns every couple of patches, which will make any story inconsistent and bad.
    I loved the Snape. But hey....apart from some questchains (like Darrowshire) I always thought WoW's story is just background noise and the one time I read a novel (Arthas) I thought it was very cringe. My son was 12 when he read it and found it ok, so I guess that is the target audience more than I am.

    I just don't understand the foaming rage over the WoW plot. Suddenly everyone here is like a literature critic or what? Then again...I found the writing of Star Wars 1-3 and 7-9 pretty shite...so I guess I understand the rage after all

  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by Defend View Post
    I HATE when villains have motivations! Awful writing to try and make them more than muahahahah I’m evil muahahah am I right! I actually think WoW trying to give the villains understandable motivations and depth is something they’ve tried and failed to do but it seems they are actually executing pretty well this expac
    Its too late for that with Sylvanas, simple as that

  12. #192
    at this point its just funny btw how blizz keeps rehashing the same content over and over and over again. Now we even got a Frostmourne 2.0, which looks EXACTLY like the old one (down to the spikes on one side).
    also, that blue crystal was either

    a) soul of arthas
    b) the same type of crystal that was used in the helm of domination, giving this sword a similar power

    both possibilities would suck majorly, so be prepared
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  13. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    Yessir, Sylvanas never once broke the will of her forsaken and ruled through silent threats
    Oh boy, I thought Koltira apologists disappeared with the flood.

    Koltira acted dumb, in a warzone, against orders, favoring the actual superpower that could claim Andoral in place of the Forsaken and the Horde in an arms race to control the entirety of the region and low key ensure the survival of the race. What was exactly supposed to happen?

  14. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackstraw View Post
    Oh boy, I thought Koltira apologists disappeared with the flood.

    Koltira acted dumb, in a warzone, against orders, favoring the actual superpower that could claim Andoral in place of the Forsaken and the Horde in an arms race to control the entirety of the region and low key ensure the survival of the race. What was exactly supposed to happen?
    That excuse reminds me the same excuse for the Arathi incidents where civilians that wanted to live with their living relatives were branded as traitors and killed but in reality she wanted to snuff out hope.

  15. #195
    I am betting so hard this will be a different flavor of a 'Darth Vader' story and Luke Skywalker story. Anduin will not become a Lich King, period. It is all for suspense. More likely he will attempt to see what this plan is and make a bargain with Sylvanas. By the end, I think Sylvanas will have a change of heart once she realizes the Jailer also had a hand in orchastrating her fate via Arthas' Lich King. She cannot be redeemed because of all shes done--she knows this. But she hopes the last her last act can somehow right some wrongs. Vader was similar. Vader killed many, many, MANY innocent people and carried out order 66. He had a change of heart, yet he wasnt celebrated as a hero.

  16. #196
    I am Murloc! Dellis0991's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrostHate View Post
    I'm a huge Sylvanas simp, but I really don't want her to have a redemption arc of any kind. I want her to just get written out of the story in a sensible manner, without being a raid boss and I still hope this is what they're planning for her.

    That aside, I don't know how Anduin suddenly got the balls to talk back to her. At one point, I was expecting him to make a joke at her expense and finish it with a dab.
    Written out in a sensible manner?!....bruh she has a big ass kill me sign stuck to her head, she did way too much to go out reasonably she either gonna be a loot piñata or blizz gonna go redemption (which is a terrible idea by the way). I hope she get splattered or chained away in Zovaal's place in the maw... can't stand that hoe.

  17. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by Darth-Piekus View Post
    That excuse reminds me the same excuse for the Arathi incidents where civilians that wanted to live with their living relatives were branded as traitors and killed but in reality she wanted to snuff out hope.
    you mean in the same place where Calia said they should join the alliance?
    Calia is the reason they got killed.
    the report systems sucks and the mods are bias.

  18. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    What do ppl expect? What stories do they actually like? When did they actually ever like WoW - since it really never was grand and epic storytelling like you get in books or well done movies? I mean..sure...the obvious answer is "during WC3 and Frozen Throne" - but I can apply my snarkiness to that as well...how we have seen the cheese of the Prince son murdering the King Father because reasons has been done to death.
    I have long gotten the sense that there is a not insignificant portion of the fan base that in their head canon thinks the lore should've stopped with WC3
    "We must make our choice. We may have democracy, or we may have wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both."
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  19. #199
    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    He's literally an embodiment of hope in everything he does. He's not a perfect person or perfect leader, but where he goes he inspires others to be better. It took one meeting with Anduin to convince some of Sylvanas's most stern supporters in the Desolate Council to return to Stormwind with their families. All the breaking of their wills, the sapping of their hope over years, overpowered.

    He is everything she wants to destroy, because he proves her worldview wrong just by still being alive.

    I absolutely still want to kill Sylvanas, but I will accept last minute backstab of main villain taking him down with her so long as we still get a boss fight of her.
    I know you haven't actually read Before the Storm, but what I do not know is why the hell you have this weird need to keep making that clear to everyone. Because Anduin hasn't met with a single member of the Desolate Council. He wasn't present at the Gathering proper. He met in the meeting place with Sylvanas alone before the actual Gathering and then rushed there after she started killing the traitors, only to be too late to save any one of them. Other than that he stayed in Stromgarde and all his contact with the Council was exchanging correspondence with Elsie.

    And it's not the non-existent meeting with Anduin that you pulled out of the nether that motivated some members of the Council to defect, but their desire to keep in touch with their families and the realization that Sylvanas may not allow another such meeting. Likewise, they weren't "her most stern supporters". Their very introduction was about Sylvanas getting offended that some of its members were against her plan to make the Forsaken immortal. And while BfA included a lot of Forsaken-related retcons to make Sylvanas look worse, those retcons did not include your fantasies about the members of the Desolate Council being broken in any capacity. Just the opposite, they were likely the most cheerful Forsaken we've seen in the story.

    Also, Anduin isn't the embodiment of hope, he's the embodiment of braindead levels of naivety. Let's compare him to another idealist character that hoped for the better tomorrow and tried to use talk no jutsu on the villain - Hiccup from How To Train Your Dragon franchise. After the first movie where he managed to get his point across and bridged the divide between his village and dragons, he tried to make the world a better place by spreading his vision of peace.

    As such, when he heard of the villain of the second movie he instantly set out to convince him of his ideals, even though his father warned him not to do so, because he considered Drago a lunatic. Which ultimately cost the life of Hiccup's father. So, when movie three came around and Hiccup faced a villain woven from the same thread as Drago, did he double down on his lofty ideals and tried to talk his way into the villain's heart? No. Because the movie was written by writers that are actually competent. Instead Hiccup learned his lesson and came to accept that some people will never see eye to eye with him on the issue of dragons.

    Hell, this is actually where even Anduin's much worse character was going in Before the Storm that you haven't read. The book ended with Anduin proclaiming that he'll never lose his hopeful spirit and his view that people can change, but finally admitted that some people may not want to change into a drone of his. And he said that in regards to Sylvanas.

    Yet here we are where for some inane reason he tries it on her again anyway. And for an equally inane reason it somehow works this time when it failed to achieve anything even when he was throwing Teldrassil in her face, even though Sylvanas has been breaking the wills of non-Forsaken (and not even just her enemies) since her introduction in W3. So this cinematic not only disregards Sylvanas' characterization so far, it also managed to undo what little personal growth Anduin has received ever since he became a prominent character.
    Last edited by Mehrunes; 2021-01-03 at 05:53 PM.
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    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  20. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    Anduin convinced jailer to see things his way and now every mawsworn turned into human and honored Anduin by turning entire Shadowlands into Elwyn Forest.
    Seeing as how Oribos looks like something specifically built for mortal needs and not for otherworldly, afterlife creatures, and how Oribos guards are just humans in a fancy armor, it wouldn't even surprise me.

    A young human being the wow's satan's ultimate weapon should be telling enough, lmao. HuMaN pOtEnTiAl.

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