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  1. #301
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    Except you know the part where she kills even those’S coming back and says no one who was on good terms with there human relatives could live as she didn’t want that hope spreading.
    Except as per Calia herself, everyone but Elsie was already defecting by the time Calia got to talking with Elsie. And she talked to Elsie last. Meaning that before Sylvanas even realized something was off 11 out of 12 Forsaken still on the field were already defecting. With none seen returning after Sylvanas sounded the horn as they should have. We only saw them returning after Sylvanas learned about Calia and decided that the test of loyalty has failed and ordered the Dark Rangers to kill them all. At which point, as Sylvanas pointed out to Nathanos after he questioned her, they could have just as well be returning only out of fear. Because, you know, there appeared a threat of consequences for defection. And looping back to Calia, Sylvanas turned out to be right in regards to 11 out of the 12 that were killed.

    Which leaves Elsie. Who still disobeyed orders about the retreat to chit-chat with a pretender to Sylvanas' throne, even though she's been told about how they were to retreat immediately after the signal. Once upon her own inquiry. After which she herself thought about how there would likely be serious repercussions for violating that rule, as not retreating when called to could create an incident with the Alliance.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    Revendreth and the Venthyr campaign makes it clear that their idea of redemption is a process- a long, slow, painful process whose result is not guaranteed. No "DRAENOR IZ FREE" into general applause allowed with these guys. Now, could Blizzard decide to give Sylvanas special treatment yet again and fast-track her redemption? Sure, absolutely. But at least so far they're not doing it for Kael'thas so maybe not.

    As for your last paragraph, no, just no. Having SHOCKING twists for the mere sake of being SHOCKING is the opposite of good writing.
    I mean, they are saying that. But what they are showing (like they already did with Kael) is that it's the Venthyr that drain the sins out of you, their assistant kills the sins and bam, your sinstone is off to be used by others as a fashion accessory. I.e. instead of treating redemption as an internal process built on introspection, it's an external one where someone else redeems the shit out of you whether you want them to or not.


    Quote Originally Posted by bagina View Post
    It was in-character for Anduin to try to get through to Sylvanas, it was very out of character for Sylvanas to react the way she did.
    It really wasn't even in-character for Anduin. Before the Storm ended with Anduin proclaiming that he'll never abandon hope that people can change, but it also contained a piece of character growth where he admitted some people may never want to become his drone. Which he said while talking about Sylvanas. And finished off with saying that she's well and truly lost. Which is why he didn't try pleading with her at Lordaeron. He demanded unconditional surrender from her, threatened her with death if she did not comply and that was that.. This cinematic is a character regression for him that undoes the last decade of his development.
    Last edited by Mehrunes; 2021-01-04 at 11:20 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  2. #302
    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    I hate it when people say this. Makes me realize literally no one's played WC3 or have known Sylvanas' storyline from Vanilla-Wrath.
    You'll have your work cut out of you trying to reconcile all three incarnations of BFA Sylvanas alone, now I'd like you see you try and include this one that suddenly values Anduin's free will after aiding and abating the guy who is torturing the dead of a universe into eternal torment and slavery into a coherent whole. This should be good.

    @Mehrunes Fair, and I never said they were perfect about it because it's still Blizzard, but you're simplifying a bit. The Accuser takes a more forceful hand with Kael because he's so close to being lost, and draining him in his case just meant removing the excess sins thrown into his lap by Denathrius's cronies. He starts to have doubts about his behavior during this week's questline, and that's stated to be just the beginning of his process. Obviously this is a video game played by actual people so we won't ever see the actual hundreds-years long penitence actually play out, but it's something still.

    Besides, we don't see very many souls actually carry their sinstones. I think it's standard operating procedure to remove them, even if thematically having souls lugging these around would be better IMO. On the whole, by WoW standards, Revendreth is fairly interesting and consistent in its theme.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

  3. #303
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post

    It really wasn't even in-character for Anduin. Before the Storm ended with Anduin proclaiming that he'll never abandon hope that people can change, but it also contained a piece of character growth where he admitted some people may never want to become his drone. Which he said while talking about Sylvanas. And finished off with saying that she's well and truly lost. Which is why he didn't try pleading with her at Lordaeron. He demanded unconditional surrender from her, threatened her with death if she did not comply and that was that.. This cinematic is a character regression for him that undoes the last decade of his development.
    Good point. You're right.

  4. #304
    Old God HighlordJohnstone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    You'll have your work cut out of you trying to reconcile all three incarnations of BFA Sylvanas alone, now I'd like you see you try and include this one that suddenly values Anduin's free will after aiding and abating the guy who is torturing the dead of a universe into eternal torment and slavery into a coherent whole. This should be good.

    @Mehrunes Fair, and I never said they were perfect about it because it's still Blizzard, but you're simplifying a bit. The Accuser takes a more forceful hand with Kael because he's so close to being lost, and draining him in his case just meant removing the excess sins thrown into his lap by Denathrius's cronies. He starts to have doubts about his behavior during this week's questline, and that's stated to be just the beginning of his process. Obviously this is a video game played by actual people so we won't ever see the actual hundreds-years long penitence actually play out, but it's something still.

    Besides, we don't see very many souls actually carry their sinstones. I think it's standard operating procedure to remove them, even if thematically having souls lugging these around would be better IMO. On the whole, by WoW standards, Revendreth is fairly interesting and consistent in its theme.
    "You'll have your work cut out of you trying to reconcile all three incarnations of BFA Sylvanas alone" It's very easy.

    There is: Sylvanas manipulating the Horde.

    There is: Sylvanas being evil.

    And, there is: Sylvanas showing genuine glimpses of her remaining humanity (AKA Before the Storm, Vol'jin's death, and her literally saying to Saurfang that she trusted him after besting him in battle, only to then proceed in tryna kill him).

    - - - Updated - - -

    "And finished off with saying that she's well and truly lost. Which is why he didn't try pleading with her at Lordaeron. He demanded unconditional surrender from her, threatened her with death if she did not comply and that was that.. This cinematic is a character regression for him that undoes the last decade of his development"

    Yeah, and he still went with that mindset until he realized wtf was going on in Sylvanas' mind in the cinematic that was literally just released.

  5. #305
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    @Mehrunes Fair, and I never said they were perfect about it because it's still Blizzard, but you're simplifying a bit. The Accuser takes a more forceful hand with Kael because he's so close to being lost, and draining him in his case just meant removing the excess sins thrown into his lap by Denathrius's cronies. He starts to have doubts about his behavior during this week's questline, and that's stated to be just the beginning of his process. Obviously this is a video game played by actual people so we won't ever see the actual hundreds-years long penitence actually play out, but it's something still.

    Besides, we don't see very many souls actually carry their sinstones. I think it's standard operating procedure to remove them, even if thematically having souls lugging these around would be better IMO. On the whole, by WoW standards, Revendreth is fairly interesting and consistent in its theme.
    The sins we killed were those pumped into him by Denathrius, but the sinstone was his own. And as we're told right at the start of Revendreth, the sinstones just laying around represent a soul that has completed their journey in the realm and moved on to better pastures (or, as we learn later, became a Venthyr).


    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    "You'll have your work cut out of you trying to reconcile all three incarnations of BFA Sylvanas alone" It's very easy.

    There is: Sylvanas manipulating the Horde.

    There is: Sylvanas being evil.

    And, there is: Sylvanas showing genuine glimpses of her remaining humanity (AKA Before the Storm, Vol'jin's death, and her literally saying to Saurfang that she trusted him after besting him in battle, only to then proceed in tryna kill him).
    Riiight. That's why in Before the Storm Sylvanas' plan, as described when she was talking with Nathanos who was in on the whole thing, was trying to make more Forsaken via sacking Stormwind. Then it changed multiple times throughout BfA, ending at breaking death. That's why in BtS Sylvanas expressed surprise about being appointed Warchief and was dissatisfied with it in her internal monologues. At Blizzcon we learned she actively worked towards becoming Warchief prior to Vol'jin's death and that it was team Jailer that convinced Vol'jin to name her to achieve their desired results. So on and so forth. The one who doesn't know Sylvanas' story here is you, not @Jastall or anyone else.


    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    "And finished off with saying that she's well and truly lost. Which is why he didn't try pleading with her at Lordaeron. He demanded unconditional surrender from her, threatened her with death if she did not comply and that was that.. This cinematic is a character regression for him that undoes the last decade of his development"

    Yeah, and he still went with that mindset until he realized wtf was going on in Sylvanas' mind in the cinematic that was literally just released.
    Except there's a reason why I said this scene isn't in-character even for Anduin. As in, it's not in-character for Sylvanas either. She had her Banshees mind-control a bunch of living survivors of the Scourge's onslaught already in W3. Because the Forsaken never cared about free will issues in regards to non-Forsaken, let alone their enemies. The taboo was always about doing so to other Forsaken. As such the writers treating her breaking Anduin's will as her moral Rubicon is a bullshit premise that goes against her prior characterization. Making Anduin's grand realization equally bullshit, as the only reason this realization works is because the incompetent twerps at Blizzard once again had to wipe their asses with the established story to achieve the results they wanted to, since they don't know how to write their way towards their desired outcomes otherwise.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  6. #306
    Old God HighlordJohnstone's Avatar
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    "That's why in Before the Storm Sylvanas' plan, as described when she was talking with Nathanos who was in on the whole thing, was trying to make more Forsaken via sacking Stormwind. Then it changed multiple times throughout BfA, ending at breaking death. That's why in BtS Sylvanas expressed surprise about being appointed Warchief and was dissatisfied with it in her internal monologues." She also tried to work for peace with the Humans and co before shit got fucked. So, no?

    "At Blizzcon we learned she actively worked towards becoming Warchief prior to Vol'jin's death and that it was team Jailer that convinced Vol'jin to name her to achieve their desired results." She did try to aim for Warchief, but she 100% did not intend for Vol'jin to die the way he did, etc. You're right about the whispers, but that imo doesn't really matter overall. And it's clear that some of what she did in Legion was genuine for the Horde, which is why they survived the Broken Shore and stood ground against the Legion. Though, even then, she did shady shit. For example: Teaming with Helya and trying to gain immortality by capturing Eyir for herself.

    - - - Updated - - -

    She probably thought that the Horde Players would have good faith with Helya since she teamed with her (Hence why she chatted with us and said "Oh yeah, ask Helya to head out" or some shit like that), but Helya is a dumb bitch anyway, so...yeah.

    - - - Updated - - -

    "Making Anduin's grand realization equally bullshit, as the only reason this realization works is because the incompetent twerps at Blizzard once again had to wipe their asses with the established story to achieve the results they wanted to, since they don't know how to write their way towards their desired outcomes otherwise." While you're right about literally everything else in that paragraph, I kinda disagree here. Anduin's realization kinda works as Sylvanas was never given the choice to be who she was, as Arthas just killed her and raised her to be a Banshee. Her doing evil shit in WC3 was probably because her time as a Banshee made her stubborn, selfish and full of hate (Which is something the Jailer used to his advantage for Sylvanas after Arthas' demise), so you're right on that. If anything, the Jailer finally gave her a "choice" for the first time, as he's basically the reason she has multiple lives practically in reality, hence why she kinda wanted to serve him and saw a different way of thinking.

    Anduin, from what I could get from the cinematic, realized this and basically pitied her. He doesn't forgive her, but he sees the gravity of her situation, and realizes that she can still provide mortality, a change. Granted, she will likely never get a full redemption, but Anduin is seeing her problem at hand, and is trying to give her something she never really had since first meeting the Jailer, a choice. A feeling of freedom, kinda? Idk, maybe I'm reaching on this. I doubt Blizzard is trying to redeem her at all though. Doesn't seem like that's the story whatsoever.

    Sylvanas just feels like a Vader knockoff rn.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I'm just trying to see the character from a less 1 sided view is all. Doesn't mean I know nothing about her though. :/

  7. #307
    So Kerrigan actually was mindcontrolled by the overmind? Ah damn.. wrong universe
    But at least she dumped Stukov that undead man with a beard and.. I got it wrong again.
    I think in the end she will get the power she needs to defeat the Void god as a child of light and shadow.. ah wait, that was Kerrigan, too.

    Anyway, can't wait where the Sylvanas story is going to..

    (I have to admit, I liked starcraft II so much I wouldn't have any problem with them redoing it in WoW, also saving the whole universe would really redeem her burning teldrassil)
    Last edited by Inukashi; 2021-01-05 at 01:08 AM.

  8. #308
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    The sins we killed were those pumped into him by Denathrius, but the sinstone was his own. And as we're told right at the start of Revendreth, the sinstones just laying around represent a soul that has completed their journey in the realm and moved on to better pastures (or, as we learn later, became a Venthyr).
    That's a conflict that exists from the onset then, since no soul is seen wearing one. The only one I remember is Kael himself, and some huge dredgers like that (CENSORED) Sludgefist also seem to wear a massive one for some reason. Then again to be fair few souls have Kael's corporeal form which exists for the audience's benefit more than anything else.

    I'll still maintain that by Blizzard standards it's a pretty minor issue, and the point remains that redemption via Revendreth is no easy affair by any means.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

  9. #309
    Whats up with handsome Squidward having fetish for blonde boys?

    Its not a "wow" moment per se when you looked at it, there were breadcrumb hints here and there that Anduin might probably end up as new LK. Most prominent was actually the moment Squidward said: "I have precisely what i need" when we teleported out of the Maw leaving Anduin in chains. I mean he is blondboy wielder of light, same as Arthas was.

    More of a "oh shit" moment for me was when Squidward pulled basically soul eating gem, much like the one which was embedded in original Frostmourne from his back-pocket and gave it to smith to make Frostmourne 2.0.
    First, this kinda implies that making Frostmourne on its own was not a huge task to begin with, it was right there, in a video, made by a MawSmith, which we slew countless so far. Devalues the uniqueness of the whole blade it self if it can be made so easily IF you have all materials for it.

    It was also a realization that we are, in a form, metaphorically said somewhat a goody-good shoe LK on our own. I mean we have the same soul eating gem with which we go into the Maw every singe day. We just choose to free souls that we collect.

    As for Sylvanas. Im a Sourfang fanboy to begin with, ever was, ever will be. So if i "hate" any WoW character - its her. However i wouldn't like to see her going trough redemption loop. Shes way too big of a character to die, but redemption loop would mean several things - First, most important, my green boy died for no reason. Second, that tree? Yeah. That would also end up as "upsie."
    Third, Tyrande would not get her vengeance and let me tell you, shes one aaaangryyy mofo. If life thought me anything is to move from a way of a angry female. kidding.
    Forth, dunno, just would like to see her go soft on me. And finally, i really dont see how could things could play out trough the story for the rest of the expansion if she goes soft. Dogboy could end up leading humans in unified human kingdom (this was speculated during beta) and on other hand we have Calia as possible replacement for Forsaken leader. So, in a way, we have replacements ready.
    But we will see.

    is it original? No. Is it something unexpected? Actually. No.

    I liked more stories behind Night Fae and Voljin and Necrolord's and Draka Inc.
    Havent yet leveled any Venthyr-Bastion characters.
    Last edited by Gurg; 2021-01-05 at 02:02 AM.

  10. #310
    The Insane Daemos daemonium's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Except as per Calia herself, everyone but Elsie was already defecting by the time Calia got to talking with Elsie. And she talked to Elsie last. Meaning that before Sylvanas even realized something was off 11 out of 12 Forsaken still on the field were already defecting. With none seen returning after Sylvanas sounded the horn as they should have. We only saw them returning after Sylvanas learned about Calia and decided that the test of loyalty has failed and ordered the Dark Rangers to kill them all. At which point, as Sylvanas pointed out to Nathanos after he questioned her, they could have just as well be returning only out of fear. Because, you know, there appeared a threat of consequences for defection. And looping back to Calia, Sylvanas turned out to be right in regards to 11 out of the 12 that were killed.

    Which leaves Elsie. Who still disobeyed orders about the retreat to chit-chat with a pretender to Sylvanas' throne, even though she's been told about how they were to retreat immediately after the signal. Once upon her own inquiry. After which she herself thought about how there would likely be serious repercussions for violating that rule, as not retreating when called to could create an incident with the Alliance.
    We have gone over this before, this is something you just made up that the book doesn't support it as it lays out who was talking with who and its not all 11 and it wasn't even calia talking to them it was a small group who approached her.

    There was Osric, talking to his friend Tomas. Over there, two sisters
    were reunited. There was Ol’ Emma, whom Calia had healed, looking
    ten years younger as she smiled at her children. And Parqual and
    Philia were coming to join them. They spoke for a few moments; Calia
    was too far away to hear what they said.
    Parqual said something to his daughter, then headed alone toward
    Calia. She felt a flicker of concern; he shouldn’t be approaching her
    like this. No one was supposed to know that she and Parqual knew
    each other. Loudly, he said, “Priestess…may this Forsaken have your
    blessing?”
    “Of course,” she replied.
    He bent his head, whispering to her, “We need you now. It’s time.”
    “Wh-what?”
    “You’ll see. Be ready.”
    Calia steadied herself and called for the Light’s blessing. It came,
    bathing him in its warm, gold-white glow. Parqual grimaced; the Holy
    Light healed Forsaken, but it was not pleasant for them. With a nod of
    appreciation, he turned and rejoined the group. She watched them,
    alert now. For a while, they simply chatted. And then, too casually,
    Philia and Parqual walked away from the Felstones. After a moment,
    the Felstone family, too, began to walk. Slowly and indirectly, so as not
    to attract too much attention, they were moving from the center of the
    field toward Stromgarde Keep.
    then we have this where it doesn't say all.
    Several of them are moving in the direction of Stromgarde Keep,” he
    confirmed, “but that may not be intentional.”
    then when it comes to the horn there is this which says some were heading back at once.

    As if in response, the horn sounded three sharp blasts. Elsie turned
    her gray-green face back toward the wall and the Forsaken banner that
    had been unfurled.
    “I’m sorry, Your Majesty,” Elsie said. “I can’t betray my queen. Not
    even for you.” She turned and shouted, “Retreat! Retreat
    On the field below, spread out like markers in the map room, were
    other tiny figures. Some of them were heading back toward Thoradin’s
    Wall. Some were returning to the keep.
    And some still stood in the field as if paralyzed.
    just like last time your either lying or misremembering but either way your wrong on most of it.
    Last edited by Daemos daemonium; 2021-01-05 at 02:53 AM.

  11. #311
    Quote Originally Posted by bagina View Post
    It was in-character for Anduin to try to get through to Sylvanas, it was very out of character for Sylvanas to react the way she did.
    You can't kill hope.

  12. #312
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaindragon View Post
    "The boy-king serves at the master's table. Three lies will he offer you.".

    Anduin will play by the game of Jailer/Sylvanas "accepting" the power she is offering, he will tell us(players) lies so we can truly believe that he is a bad guy. And when at the right moment he strike back. And will be hard for him to control his emotions and all the shit that he believes so he can play this game.

    Would be awesome
    I think Anduin will take Sylvannas offer and turn (at least temporarily) to serve the darkness.

    I realy like IIlngoth' references.

    Regardless of the boy king, if Anduin is the golden one and not turalyon, then Anduin might take the vacant throne (of the lich king) . Reading on it again, Sylvannas play along (kneels before six masters) but eventually will take over the SL (serves only one - her own). I also fear that Ysera might betray us somehow.

    What if Sylvannas isn't Vader but rather Anduin (Anakin) is? There was a buzz Anduin will turn dark at sime point, and another for Sylvannas actually doing good in the long run (and judging how unjust and awkward the afterlife is I'm with Sylvannas on that we need a better system). A role switch would be a quite interesting twist. Not the first time it happened neither.

  13. #313
    Quote Originally Posted by Doronjo View Post
    I'll keep my theory that Sylvanas is on our side but with a complete different sense of priority. She is justifying her actions by what she judge necessary to achieve her goals, she's an extremist.

    Before disserting on her, let's talk from a design perspective. In a game like wow, some character gets the development earlier than other or are let in "stasis" until further interest in the character. So even if there were development in LK and Cata, her arc started with Legion.

    To understand her motivation is quite simple. The infinity of death beats the short time spent alive. If the afterlife is wrong then no matter how many have to die. After all, no matter if you die in a burning tree or if you live a long life you end up in the maw. And before talking about her relation with the Jailer and how I believe she works since day 1 on how to screw him over let's talk why she try to convince us that the "arbiter system" is wrong.

    You are judged based on your life, however if we can make choices, most our them are limited and some option are removed from you. If Sylvanas would had died without resurection defending her people, she would had a sweet afterlife maybe, but if you take her a few years latter the judgement is different. The individuals are judged at the moment of their death which in this world represent a tiny fragment of your existence. The system does not take into account the kind of person you could become and doesn't really give much agenda to you in the afterlife to change and be free (The 4 covenants have this glowing flaw). The arbiter use some unknown parameter to force a soul to live some existence that could not be right for people that are changing. The system should not judge you on who you where the moment you died but who you could be, or could have been.
    Current system is cool for people having luck but is most likely to defavor those who had cruel hardship.

    But let's get back to the plot.
    Wotlk : Sylvanas is revengeful, commits suicide when she see no other option for her once the vengeance is acomplished. Jailer is somehow hijacking her.She is not stupid and must have figured that the jailer is the puppet master of her demise. If she should be pissed at someone it's him over Arthas who was like her a puppet. So no way she agree with the jailer, especially if she claim to fight for choice when the jailer, no matter his endgame is absolutly not for it.

    Jump to Legion. Sylvanas shadowland's story is already in motion. She showed honest respect to Varian and is quite surprise at her nomination. Though it was through the Jailer and we could assume she was playing comedy, let's assume that it was an honest reaction. The Arbiter is broken by some design and nothing point to Sylvanas being responsible.

    Jump to BFA. As Saurfang said, everything she did failed. She knows everyone is going to the maw, so she gives no fuck to who die as long as it allows her to continue her plans which is : failing. As a loyalist, you could be disapointed that she knew every action we were doing against her and she asked us to do nothing. So she let Baine try to make amends with the Alliance, knew it, and only decided to emprison him. So both Alliance and Horde could rescue him, and once again she knew it and let it happen. And when the Horde and the Alliance are at orgrimar and a victory uncertain, she's dueling Saurfang and "slip" in a way even her devotees learn they are being used.
    Basically, she united everyone against her on purpose.

    Jump to SL. She open the door to the shadowlands. If she had not, we would have lose. The maw would continue to get the souls and nobody could counter that. So her action was once again useful for us and not useful for "Sylvanas pure evil" as she is not pure evil.

    Jump to both conversation with jailers and Anduin. She is honest with Anduin, saying she is fighting for choice and explain her perspective. Second cinematic showed that Jailer is all about control and Sylvanas, as duplicit as she is, is not a hypocrite. I don't believe she has been talking about liberty and choice and follow blindly the Jailer that is the complete opposite.
    She wants both afterlife justice and an end to the Jailer's domination. She believes that if she played along, the Jailer could destroy the SL as we know it, and then with help destroy him. That's why she brought us, that's partialy why she is doing her best to not enslave Anduin. However not enslaving Anduin would mean treason and the Jailer would destroy her. That's why she said she hasn't "gone this far to falter now". She did despicable things to be able to achieve her plans, yet enslaving Anduin is a bit too much for her.

    Of course she burned Teldrassil and many other atrocities...however I think it took a toll on her, even if for her the end justify the means. Enslaving Anduin is not a worse thing but it is more personnal for her. She is forced into a corner having to do to Anduin the exact thing that destoyed her in the first place. Living Windrunner had flaws but she protected and loved until the lich king removed that from her. She obviously doesn't want to that to Anduin, even if that contradict her plans, that why for the last two cinematic we see her falter...doing horrible things to save the world is a necessary evil for her, but doing what traumatized her and make her hate herself to the point of suicide is something she doesn't want to do to Anduin who represent for her, what is good about life even if she tries but failed to deny that her mortal self still exist.
    For all of her action, she could believe she is doomed, yet Anduin show that she had no choice into being the banshee queen but she could still be Windrunner. If Anduin surrender, it would be a confirmation to the depressive "truth" Sylvanas clings to, that hope is a lie. I think that deep down she is still Windrunner, no matter the title of banshee queen and what it implies and she hates that. The cutscene with Uther and Arthas also showed through Uther hesitation that Arthas as evil his action got, was more than just the lich king.



    I don't say the writing is awesome, but it is consistent and offer depth of character in a game that has always been a blockbuster kind of story, with sky beam and evil people doing evil things. If I'm right about Sylvanas, she is quite like Illidan, justifying the end and taking the decision for other. However with Illidan, there was no conflict between his motivations, his actions were foolish (opening a portal to Argus without a plan and being saved by a light deus ex machina) and suceeded by apparent luck and pure force of will.
    I prefer to see Sylvanas accepting the mantle of a vilain, showing emotions and having moment of doubts in her "perfect" plans she had years to prepare and her own belief.
    Pretty well explained, I think. I think the question is, can Blizzard stick the landing and make us believe Sylvanas as this sort of anti-hero? Maybe, maybe not. Given how heavy-handed BFA was, there's some pretty well-founded skepticism, I would say.

    But credit really has to be given to the voice actors and the animators, as the cinematics are doing a pretty good job of selling Sylvanas having a little more emotion beneath the surface. That said, I still find Anduin a bit insufferable, just painfully generic and "good". If anything, I think I'd almost appreciate they just having him willingly accept "Shalamourne" or whatever, confident in his ability to resist its corruption, only to find it a greater struggle than he anticipated. Not to say "he should become a villain", but I'd definitely like to see him humbled.

  14. #314
    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    I'm just trying to see the character from a less 1 sided view is all.
    No, you just cant accept that Blizzard fucked up.

  15. #315
    Stood in the Fire Muxtar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post

    It really wasn't even in-character for Anduin. Before the Storm ended with Anduin proclaiming that he'll never abandon hope that people can change, but it also contained a piece of character growth where he admitted some people may never want to become his drone. Which he said while talking about Sylvanas. And finished off with saying that she's well and truly lost. Which is why he didn't try pleading with her at Lordaeron. He demanded unconditional surrender from her, threatened her with death if she did not comply and that was that.. This cinematic is a character regression for him that undoes the last decade of his development.
    Well, he demanded and threatened with Sylvanas when he had his army behind him. Now the situation is slightly different, him being a prisoner at Barad-Dur... ehm, Torghast, without much chances to walk out with his own mind in his head. So it is reasonable that he changes his behaviour and tries to persuade Sylvanas, I'd say it is his only chance to escape undeath and mind-slavery to Jailer.

  16. #316
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPOvUQIbP9s
    Aaaand, cut. Scene over. They officially whitewashing Sylvanas by that vomit inducing interaction with Anduin. Lets say it like that - its horrible from every angle. Its like a perfect gem made of pure crap, every side of it shines its own hue of awful.
    1) Anduin still sees "some good" in her, aka the Hope or wahetever.
    2) Arthas-Anduin parallel which i always found really unnecessary, not every Alliance prince should be compared to Arthas. Arthas wasnt even that great of a character (although he IS better then most current characters.)
    3) Whats the point of all that grand talk of "choice" and Anduin placing HIS fate as some kind of "end line" for Evilness when uncountable legions of souls are currently tortured, broken, turned mad or enslaved by the Jailer and Sylvanas. How comes their fates were not evil enough, but if she dares touch him THEN its a Moral Event Horizon?
    4) Jailer looks awful, just saying. Handsome squidward is not imposing and looks silly.
    5) Kerrigan "redemption" story ahoy, here we go. *vomits*
    6) All that was pretty much "foretold" before and people said that it will never happen. Well... I guess it DID happened after all!
    But... It dosent make me happy, it just makes me even more disheartened since the Worst Scenario is THE Scenario we going with.
    Oh noooo they gave a villian (who has not always been a villian) a conscience and don't portray her unrevocable evil and without emotions. She always had emotions. At no point was she not lead by the,

    I don't think there is anythi8ng that would satisfy you in regard to lore.
    No idea why you think there is a redemption story. So the moment the villian is not mustach twirling obvious all htere is evil, there HAS to be redemption?

    Anduin did not put any endpoint of evilness anywhere. He just recognized and pinted out sylvanass inner conflict.

    regarding point 6: NOTHING happend. NOTHING. Even if it does. Stop acting so world endingly cringy with everything regarding Sylvannas, Anduin and Bain. Everyx thread about them is just senseless whining about the one being too good the other being too evil or not evil enough.

  17. #317
    The Child of Light and Shadow is clearly Arator. The Child of Light (Turalyon) and Shadow (Alleria). Xe'ra's prophecy was right, but, in her hubris, she misinterpreted the real identity of the true Child of Light and Shadow.
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2021-01-05 at 08:54 AM.

  18. #318
    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    I dunno man, you saw those Venthyr aristocrats living the life? Team Maldraxxus also seems to enjoy the fighting and tests.
    Let's not forget that the gardening stint is also for people who like gardening, and most of them don't seem to actually do all that much so there's plenty of free time involved.

  19. #319
    Stood in the Fire Muxtar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    The Child of Light and Shadow is clearly Arator. The Child of Light (Turalyon) and Shadow (Alleria). Xe'ra's prophecy was right, but, in her hubris, she misinterpreted the real identity of the true Child of Light and Shadow.
    But he was born before Alleria acquired shadow powers, wasn't he?

  20. #320
    Quote Originally Posted by Muxtar View Post
    But he was born before Alleria acquired shadow powers, wasn't he?
    Prophecies are set in the future, the requirements do not have to be met right when the subject is born. Prophecies are complex and ambiguous, but Arator makes way more sense than Illidan or even Anduin. Anduin definitely makes no sense. Just because he's a Discipline priest doesn't mean he's "Child of Light and Shadow", otherwise Moira Thaurissan is too lol.

    In fact I would say that it's not a coincidence that the Prophecy was dropped and Xe'ra slain right when Alleria and Turalyon were reintroduced. Clever way to misdirect the players, but it didn't work on me.

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