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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin
    3) Whats the point of all that grand talk of "choice" and Anduin placing HIS fate as some kind of "end line" for Evilness when uncountable legions of souls are currently tortured, broken, turned mad or enslaved by the Jailer and Sylvanas. How comes their fates were not evil enough, but if she dares touch him THEN its a Moral Event Horizon?
    I think you should know by now that all morality gravitates around Anduin around the time he taught Saurfang about honor. If not then when he solved the undead-living divide within an hour. If not then, when he gave a speech in Orgrimmar after saving the Horde and Saurfang alike. All good stems inevitably from Anduin. Sylvanas being actually given a motivation is just done so she too can embrace Anduin, a fate worse than death.

    It also gets my goat as a fan of the character that her identity for 99% of her screentime and from whom her entire fanbase stems, i.e that of the Banshee Queen, is cast as the aberrant personality suppressing her 'real' one as Ranger-General. Much like the people who claim Arthas was good and needs to be redeemed, reverting Sylvanas to her pre-undead personality leaves you with a thoroughly pointless archetype. Why is Sylvanas either surprised or worried about bailing out Denathrius when she's thrown tons of people under the bus even before she became super Satan if it served her purposes?

    On the optimistic side, I do hope she goes through with it and stabs him, since even having him possessed for a patch will delay the trainwreck conclusion of either a hack-kneed redemption or of her as an unwitting goon to a villain this bland.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2021-01-03 at 12:39 AM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Exactly. I admit, i never felt THAT kind of disgusting, cold "tingle" each time i see some WoW reated news in my youtube feed. Its like... anticipation but backwards, hmmm... Whats the word for it...
    The word you're looking for might be 'dread'

  3. #23
    I don't think she's getting a redemption. Might be too late for that and I am not even sure she has the power to take on the Jailer. Defeating a bad version of the Lich King and an old Orc Warrior doesn't make you Jailer level. Her power in any case is borrowed and I believe the Jailer could take it away anytime he wanted.

  4. #24
    Seems like they're ruining Sylvanas (even more!) for her loyalists and for the people that are sick of seeing her?
    Anduin being forced into becoming the next Arthas?
    Just fucking amazing how Blizzard manages to do these things.
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    I can't believe you idiots banned my main forum account because I was only showing you proof of your trolling. I will keep posting here and I will not stop this war. Just stop disrupting roleplay. You have done enough damage already.

  5. #25
    Daily reminder that Garrosh was also about to be converted to Anduinism but skipped into a different planet and went out sticking to his guns. We can only hope Sylvanas finds the balls (ovaries?) to do the same, but I doubt the writers will be as merciful.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaprin View Post
    The word you're looking for might be 'dread'
    Exactly! Thank you. I am not a native english speaker so sometimes i forget the right words.

  7. #27
    This means she’s going to die soon

    I’m ok with it

    Idc if she does last second realization
    Idc if she gets redeemed in death

    Her arc is over

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    I think you should know by now that all morality gravitates around Anduin around the time he taught Saurfang about honor. If not then when he solved the undead-living divide within an hour. If not then, when he gave a speech in Orgrimmar after saving the Horde and Saurfang alike. All good stems inevitably from Anduin. Sylvanas being actually given a motivation is just done so she too can embrace Anduin, a fate worse than death.

    It also gets my goat as a fan of the character that her identity for 99% of her screentime and from whom her entire fanbase stems, i.e that of the Banshee Queen, is cast as the aberrant personality suppressing her 'real' one as Ranger-General. Much like the people who claim Arthas was good and needs to be redeemed, reverting Sylvanas to her pre-undead personality leaves you with a thoroughly pointless archetype. Why is Sylvanas either surprised or worried about bailing out Denathrius when she's thrown tons of people under the bus even before she became super Satan if it served her purposes?

    On the optimistic side, I do hope she goes through with it and stabs him, since even having him possessed for a patch will delay the trainwreck conclusion of either a hack-kneed redemption or of her as an unwitting goon to a villain this bland.
    As if her redemption will make anybody happier. I mean, villain of her caliber - someone who openly revels in cruelty and makes sure her victims suffer AND cause suffering to their loved ones/people cannot be redeemed believably. Unlike villains that are either do what they do without emotional component or have some doubt about their acts but go through with them anyway because they either have no choice or obligated to. Basically, the "line" is not the sheer quantity (which is also fucken huge) but "quality" of her evil deeds. We can talk about "hard choices" when some guy nukes a planet to save a star system (Warhammer reference) and either has no feelings at all (just pushed the button, soul being consumed by the role, the duty) or feels like he just ate shit and failed in his duty. But when villain loves every moment of their evilness (again, Warhammer - dark eldars or Chaos or particularly fucked up Imperials) then there can be no "redemption".

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Sorshen View Post
    Seems like they're ruining Sylvanas (even more!) for her loyalists and for the people that are sick of seeing her?
    Anduin being forced into becoming the next Arthas?
    Just fucking amazing how Blizzard manages to do these things.
    It seems like they want us all to agonize and stop playing the game (as i did since 8.1 of BfA). Are you a loyalist or a sane person?)

  9. #29
    Inb4 they call the new sword "Shalamourne".

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    As if her redemption will make anybody happier. I mean, villain of her caliber - someone who openly revels in cruelty and makes sure her victims suffer AND cause suffering to their loved ones/people cannot be redeemed believably. Unlike villains that are either do what they do without emotional component or have some doubt about their acts but go through with them anyway because they either have no choice or obligated to. Basically, the "line" is not the sheer quantity (which is also fucken huge) but "quality" of her evil deeds. We can talk about "hard choices" when some guy nukes a planet to save a star system (Warhammer reference) and either has no feelings at all (just pushed the button, soul being consumed by the role, the duty) or feels like he just ate shit and failed in his duty. But when villain loves every moment of their evilness (again, Warhammer - dark eldars or Chaos or particularly fucked up Imperials) then there can be no "redemption".
    Technically there will be a small minority here who might be happier if Sylvannas is reedeemed. They will feel that they were right all along, that this will be a slap in the face of the boring and lame good guys because they revel in making the lives of others miserable.

    Meanwhile Blizzard is giving the wrong message to it's story and probably puts a nail in the coffin of Warcraft.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    But when villain loves every moment of their evilness (again, Warhammer - dark eldars or Chaos or particularly fucked up Imperials) then there can be no "redemption".
    I really can't say that she was "enjoying" any of what she did. At least it didn't strike me like that.

    Were her deeds heartless and brutal? - Yes.
    Did she know what she was doing? - Yes.
    Was all of it intentional, knowing the implications? - Yes.
    Was she shown to experience pleasure in doing any of it? - No.

    Even in the Teldrassil cinematic - she's not showing any emotions of enjoyment while watching the tree burning. She's like a machine that is devoid of all emotion, only doing what it is supposed to do.
    Because some things are just worth fighting for.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by razorpax View Post
    This means she’s going to die soon

    I’m ok with it

    Idc if she does last second realization
    Idc if she gets redeemed in death

    Her arc is over
    Not sure why people are so desperate for her arc to end. Why? So they could focus on more interesting arcs like...baine? On a personal view, I'm a huge fan of redemption arcs, mainly because it might project that each of us is salvagable. Should there be a cost to such redemption? Yes.

    I find it hard to understand how cartoon villain Garrosh is more acceptable in horde eyes than a tragic "made to serve", including under Garrosh - Sylvannas.

    Ever since WC3 she was under someone command against her will - Arthas, Garrosh, Jailer. I believe outside that frame, all she wants is a release into nothingness

  13. #33
    I hope Sylvanas get redeemed, but just goes like when Illidan was evil and vanishes to do his own thing. Shes amazing.

    Everyone that keeps "hur dur she must die" is alliance elfs fan-boys that cry about their stupid tree burning.

  14. #34
    Where do we all get to see all these cinematics. I haven't seen the previous one between sylvanas and anduin ingame.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    As if her redemption will make anybody happier. I mean, villain of her caliber - someone who openly revels in cruelty and makes sure her victims suffer AND cause suffering to their loved ones/people cannot be redeemed believably. Unlike villains that are either do what they do without emotional component or have some doubt about their acts but go through with them anyway because they either have no choice or obligated to. Basically, the "line" is not the sheer quantity (which is also fucken huge) but "quality" of her evil deeds. We can talk about "hard choices" when some guy nukes a planet to save a star system (Warhammer reference) and either has no feelings at all (just pushed the button, soul being consumed by the role, the duty) or feels like he just ate shit and failed in his duty. But when villain loves every moment of their evilness (again, Warhammer - dark eldars or Chaos or particularly fucked up Imperials) then there can be no "redemption".
    I can't really take any of that sentiment seriously where it concerns either the game itself - given Krastinov of Mengele-pastiche fame is seen as fit for redemption, or out of story, given the people falling over themselves explaining how Arthas should be redeemed considering his attitude and rap sheet. Hell, just take a look at AU!Grom or Illidan. The issue with a redemption isn't some kind of moral barometer that Sylvanas has crossed uniquely, it's that it's abysmal writing from any kind of character perspective. What exactly about Anduin's plea sways her where nothing else much closer to her, such as her family, kingdom etc. did so earlier? How is she okay with ditching them, her kingdom, subjects, lover, race etc. but not killing a human kid she's talked to twice? And foregoing those things, what does a redemption get us as pay off? For one it completely throws the entire night elf race and the worgen under the bus to a parodic degree, as even if she dies and is viewed positively by only some and not them they are denied pushback. The moral framing of that is absurd and even more offensive than it was in BFA.

    More so than that, it strangely enough makes her BFA turn, already a car wreck where she did nothing but twirl her mustache, worse. Sure, now she can emote and the actress can play an actual character, but after retconning Sylvanas as being motivated by cosmic determinism and changing the afterlife all along in this wretched retcon and being willing to off god knows how many people to get to that point and throw all her other ties down to that end, any change of tact at this point would lead us to believe that she didn't actually think all that strongly about it after all, since she's perfectly willing to change her mind rather than sully Anduin. On top of that, far from being a climber believing in her doctrine or self-interest, as she's done for the entire course of the game, she implicitly trusts one of the most transparently one note and evil characters the game has produced and is shocked when he performs acts she not only has been helping him with for, in the new canon, ten years now, but ones she has engaged in even before.

    If she does get redeemed and realises she's been tricked, then she's even more of an evil tard, just one the narrative will treat better despite her having done all she did on the basis of deceit from someone she never had any reason to trust, on a massive scale and hurting tons of people on the grounds of something she could go either way with really. It's bad no matter one's stance on the character, and the best choice remains, then as now, to have her take over as the final boss and implement her plan or, if the story is charitable to her approach, to have her be correct in whatever she's implementing in the eyes of her aligned groups, but end up foiled because of the enemies she made on the way, giving them vengeance in the process while restoring her function to the race she was chopped out of.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2021-01-03 at 01:05 AM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by FrostHate View Post
    I really can't say that she was "enjoying" any of what she did. At least it didn't strike me like that.

    Were her deeds heartless and brutal? - Yes.
    Did she know what she was doing? - Yes.
    Was all of it intentional, knowing the implications? - Yes.
    Was she shown to experience pleasure in doing any of it? - No.

    Even in the Teldrassil cinematic - she's not showing any emotions of enjoyment while watching the tree burning. She's like a machine that is devoid of all emotion, only doing what it is supposed to do.
    She was pretty much enjoying her evilness long before that. Even before WotLK suicide dive. And during Teldrassil she made sure to torment Delaryn with the burning and turned her head so she could see it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth-Piekus View Post
    Technically there will be a small minority here who might be happier if Sylvannas is reedeemed. They will feel that they were right all along, that this will be a slap in the face of the boring and lame good guys because they revel in making the lives of others miserable.

    Meanwhile Blizzard is giving the wrong message to it's story and probably puts a nail in the coffin of Warcraft.
    Sure, i can see that happening. But again, its not "winning" , its losing by turning more people away from the franchise.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by leorana View Post
    Not sure why people are so desperate for her arc to end. Why? So they could focus on more interesting arcs like...baine? On a personal view, I'm a huge fan of redemption arcs, mainly because it might project that each of us is salvagable. Should there be a cost to such redemption? Yes.

    I find it hard to understand how cartoon villain Garrosh is more acceptable in horde eyes than a tragic "made to serve", including under Garrosh - Sylvannas.

    Ever since WC3 she was under someone command against her will - Arthas, Garrosh, Jailer. I believe outside that frame, all she wants is a release into nothingness
    Her plot so far destoryed both factions that CANNOT be destroyed in lore because of WoW core concept. So now because of her we have two dead, decomposing , bloated corpses of factions which inspire nobody and look like shit. She (or rather her plot) made more damage to WoW in total then five Boring Baines.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by razorpax View Post
    This means she’s going to die soon

    I’m ok with it

    Idc if she does last second realization
    Idc if she gets redeemed in death

    Her arc is over
    Not sure why people are so desperate for her arc to end. Why? So they could focus on more interesting arcs like...baine? On a personal view, I'm a huge fan of redemption arcs, mainly because it might project that each of us is salvagable. Should there be a cost to such redemption? Yes.

    I find it hard to understand how cartoon villain Garrosh is more acceptable in horde eyes than a tragic "made to serve", including under Garrosh - Sylvannas.

    Ever since WC3 she was under someone command against her will - Arthas, Garrosh, Jailer. I believe outside that frame, all she wants is a release into nothingness


    Also, how come Kael'thas being on the road to redemtion is fine? Has he shown remorsem did he change his beliefs? Is he seeking for a way to make the world a better place to be in? Sylvannas was denied her chance for redemption same as Arthas, when the system failed them. Sylvannas is right, the wheel is broken and if anything, this xpac shows she was right all along in her quest for a better afterlife

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Josyel View Post
    I hope Sylvanas get redeemed, but just goes like when Illidan was evil and vanishes to do his own thing. Shes amazing.

    Everyone that keeps "hur dur she must die" is alliance elfs fan-boys that cry about their stupid tree burning.
    And those who want her redeemed are horny edgelord who like her boobs and write crappy fanfiction about her and their characters.

    See? I also can be stupid when i want to.

  19. #39
    I stopped paying attention to the lore in Cataclysm. It just keeps getting dumber and more fanfiction-y with every expac.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by leorana View Post
    Not sure why people are so desperate for her arc to end. Why? So they could focus on more interesting arcs like...baine? On a personal view, I'm a huge fan of redemption arcs, mainly because it might project that each of us is salvagable. Should there be a cost to such redemption? Yes.

    I find it hard to understand how cartoon villain Garrosh is more acceptable in horde eyes than a tragic "made to serve", including under Garrosh - Sylvannas.

    Ever since WC3 she was under someone command against her will - Arthas, Garrosh, Jailer. I believe outside that frame, all she wants is a release into nothingness


    Also, how come Kael'thas being on the road to redemtion is fine? Has he shown remorsem did he change his beliefs? Is he seeking for a way to make the world a better place to be in? Sylvannas was denied her chance for redemption same as Arthas, when the system failed them. Sylvannas is right, the wheel is broken and if anything, this xpac shows she was right all along in her quest for a better afterlife
    Every xpac, new character gets focus, new character gets bitched about, "I speak on behalf of X group, we want Y to happen". It's nothing new, when they focus on another character next, more bitching.

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