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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    I can't really take any of that sentiment seriously where it concerns either the game itself - given Krastinov of Mengele-pastiche fame is seen as fit for redemption, or out of story, given the people falling over themselves explaining how Arthas should be redeemed considering his attitude and rap sheet. Hell, just take a look at AU!Grom or Illidan. The issue with a redemption isn't some kind of moral barometer that Sylvanas has crossed uniquely, it's that it's abysmal writing from any kind of character perspective. What exactly about Anduin's plea sways her where nothing else much closer to her, such as her family, kingdom etc. did so earlier? How is she okay with ditching them, her kingdom, subjects, lover, race etc. but not killing a human kid she's talked to twice? And foregoing those things, what does a redemption get us as pay off? For one it completely throws the entire night elf race and the worgen under the bus to a parodic degree, as even if she dies and is viewed positively by only some and not them they are denied pushback. The moral framing of that is absurd and even more offensive than it was in BFA.

    More so than that, it strangely enough makes her BFA turn, already a car wreck where she did nothing but twirl her mustache, worse. Sure, now she can emote and the actress can play an actual character, but after retconning Sylvanas as being motivated by cosmic determinism and changing the afterlife all along in this wretched retcon and being willing to off god knows how many people to get to that point and throw all her other ties down to that end, any change of tact at this point would lead us to believe that she didn't actually think all that strongly about it after all, since she's perfectly willing to change her mind rather than sully Anduin. On top of that, far from being a climber believing in her doctrine or self-interest, as she's done for the entire course of the game, she implicitly trusts one of the most transparently one note and evil characters the game has produced and is shocked when he performs acts she not only has been helping him with for, in the new canon, ten years now, but ones she has engaged in even before.

    If she does get redeemed and realises she's been tricked, then she's even more of an evil tard, just one the narrative will treat better despite her having done all she did on the basis of deceit from someone she never had any reason to trust, on a massive scale and hurting tons of people on the grounds of something she could go either way with really. It's bad no matter one's stance on the character, and the best choice remains, then as now, to have her take over as the final boss and implement her plan or, if the story is charitable to her approach, to have her be correct in whatever she's implementing in the eyes of her aligned groups, but end up foiled because of the enemies she made on the way, giving them vengeance in the process while restoring her function to the race she was chopped out of.
    "For one it completely throws the entire night elf race and the worgen under the bus to a parodic degree, as even if she dies and is viewed positively by only some and not them they are denied pushback. The moral framing of that is absurd and even more offensive than it was in BFA." - i specifically avoided mentioning that but yes, thats the big part. HUGE one, really. Also that throws both Horde and Alliance even deeper down the gutter, and they are already swimming in refuse and crap.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Daily reminder that Garrosh was also about to be converted to Anduinism but skipped into a different planet and went out sticking to his guns. We can only hope Sylvanas finds the balls (ovaries?) to do the same, but I doubt the writers will be as merciful.
    Garrosh really dodged a bullet there. Anything better than becoming Anduin's cocksleeve!

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by leorana View Post
    Not sure why people are so desperate for her arc to end. Why? So they could focus on more interesting arcs like...baine? On a personal view, I'm a huge fan of redemption arcs, mainly because it might project that each of us is salvagable. Should there be a cost to such redemption? Yes.

    I find it hard to understand how cartoon villain Garrosh is more acceptable in horde eyes than a tragic "made to serve", including under Garrosh - Sylvannas.

    Ever since WC3 she was under someone command against her will - Arthas, Garrosh, Jailer. I believe outside that frame, all she wants is a release into nothingness


    Also, how come Kael'thas being on the road to redemtion is fine? Has he shown remorsem did he change his beliefs? Is he seeking for a way to make the world a better place to be in? Sylvannas was denied her chance for redemption same as Arthas, when the system failed them. Sylvannas is right, the wheel is broken and if anything, this xpac shows she was right all along in her quest for a better afterlife
    Garrosh is being milked like a cow, endlessly feeding whole court of vampiric snobs and Kael suffers to redeem himself, through humiliation and pain both and he still NOT considered redeemed, he merely "on his way" and after Castle Nathria we can see him undergoing the "process" further.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    And those who want her redeemed are horny edgelord who like her boobs and write crappy fanfiction about her and their characters.

    See? I also can be stupid when i want to.
    See not many posts passed and the first one appeared. For some here Sylvannas is a means to spite others, to flame, to troll and they feed from it.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    "For one it completely throws the entire night elf race and the worgen under the bus to a parodic degree, as even if she dies and is viewed positively by only some and not them they are denied pushback. The moral framing of that is absurd and even more offensive than it was in BFA." - i specifically avoided mentioning that but yes, thats the big part. HUGE one, really. Also that throws both Horde and Alliance even deeper down the gutter, and they are already swimming in refuse and crap.
    Only the Alliance, really, for reasons we've already discussed - "It wasn't you, it was only Sylvanas." -> "It wasn't Sylvanas, it was only the Blue Man". The Horde is already a parody of itself, it only stands to benefit if Sylvanas has a point that's at all defensible to the characters in story or if she goes out well. There's nothing worthwhile in the shambolic path taken in BFA or in the husk that's left of the factio, from the imposition of the same generic honor code onto everyone, to the destruction of the Forsaken or to the undead night elves inexplicably deciding to stick with it and with a climax of destroying its oldest institution to ape the opposing group. All of that is built on the plank of Sylvanas being pure evil and doing all she did entirely out of said motive of pure evil. Kick that out there and we might push this nonsense out of the way after all. If Danuser goes through with this, he can oblige in throwing Calia into the bin while he's at it but given her prominence I really doubt it.

    It's likelier however that if there is a redemption, both will stay - the Alliance will pivot to blaming the Jailer, while the Horde won't adress any of these things. A narrative that elevates Anduin's choirboy morality and frames his conversion and killing as something more likely to either affect Sylvanas on a moral level - given what she already did with Teldrassil, or a personal level - given her reunion with her sisters, Nathanos, etc is not a narrative interested in doing that kind of course correction.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2021-01-03 at 01:22 AM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    She was pretty much enjoying her evilness long before that. Even before WotLK suicide dive. And during Teldrassil she made sure to torment Delaryn with the burning and turned her head so she could see it.
    I honestly can't remember a cinematic or a moment, for the last 2 expansions, where Sylvanas was showing a clear sight of delight while torturing someone. Correct me if I'm wrong here.

    She turned Delaryn's head to watch because the elf tried to get the last word on her and Sylvanas was not having any of it. Even then - she was not laughing maniacally while shouting "Go ahead, call the police. They cannot unburn your tree".
    Because some things are just worth fighting for.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Only the Alliance, really, for reasons we've already discussed - "It wasn't you, it was only Sylvanas." -> "It wasn't Sylvanas, it was only the Blue Man". The Horde is already a parody of itself, it only stands to benefit if Sylvanas has a point that's at all defensible to the characters in story or if she goes out well.There's nothing worthwhile in the shambolic path taken in BFA, from the imposition of the same generic honor code onto everyone, to the destruction of the Forsaken or to the undead night elves inexplicably deciding to stick with it. All of that is built on the plank of Sylvanas being pure evil and doing all she did entirely out of said motive of pure evil. Kick that out there and we might push this nonsense out of the way after all. If Danuser goes through with this, he can oblige in throwing Calia into the bin while he's at it but given her prominence I really doubt it.
    Indeed, i always mentioned how her redemption will make Alliance story pointless, not just "bad" but entirely pointless. Because they forgave the Horde and blamed it all on Sylvanas and then she will get what, redeemed and the "blame payload" is gone then? What kind of logic is this? Its like hiding nuclear waste in your basement and pretending that radiation no longer kills you if you cant see the barrels.
    Only thing i can think of is some "well, fuck you then" as Turalyon refuses to surrender the throne to Anduin or maybe Andy stays in Shadowlands for whatever reason or goes neutral and Alliance snaps entirely and goes on a rampage against the horde since "blame cart" has made full circle and stopped at the gates of Orgrimmar again.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by FrostHate View Post
    I honestly can't remember a cinematic or a moment, for the last 2 expansions, where Sylvanas was showing a clear sight of delight while torturing someone. Correct me if I'm wrong here.

    She turned Delaryn's head to watch because the elf tried to get the last word on her and Sylvanas was not having any of it. Even then - she was not laughing maniacally while shouting "Go ahead, call the police. They cannot unburn your tree".
    It was villainous enough. When you killing somebody have a decency to do it quickly at least, or without all that pointless drama. Her whole character is disgusting, frankly speaking and the damage "she" did is beyond measure. WoW is in shambles because of it, it will never recover.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth-Piekus View Post
    See not many posts passed and the first one appeared. For some here Sylvannas is a means to spite others, to flame, to troll and they feed from it.
    And then Kyalin the Sheep bans me for saying the same thing, if you can believe that.

  8. #48
    Mechagnome Ilyiana's Avatar
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    someone on the writing team finally remembered lament of the highborne thank you god
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  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Ilyiana View Post
    someone on the writing team finally remembered lament of the highborne thank you god
    A bit too late for that, dont you think?

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Indeed, i always mentioned how her redemption will make Alliance story pointless, not just "bad" but entirely pointless. Because they forgave the Horde and blamed it all on Sylvanas and then she will get what, redeemed and the "blame payload" is gone then? What kind of logic is this? Its like hiding nuclear waste in your basement and pretending that radiation no longer kills you if you cant see the barrels.
    Only thing i can think of is some "well, fuck you then" as Turalyon refuses to surrender the throne to Anduin or maybe Andy stays in Shadowlands for whatever reason or goes neutral and Alliance snaps entirely and goes on a rampage against the horde since "blame cart" has made full circle and stopped at the gates of Orgrimmar again.
    The latter bit with Turalyon is what I'd entirely support. Sylvanas having a point will get the Forsaken back from the brink and introduce difference in the Horde again. While the story beat itself would be a mess, it'd have a silver lining. But for the Alliance that silver lining would only be present if the story permits them to act like actual people and take any rehabilitation of Sylvanas as cause for further conflict given everything she's put them through. Preferably with some on-screen wins for team blue.

    Sadly, neither component of this is very likely. What these story beats really seem to be are a re-do now that Danuser is in charge instead of Afrasiabi. Afrasiabi wanted to do the Arthas parallel with Delaryn, casting Sylvanas as comically evil and committed to destroying and spiting a people she's legitimately never interacted with before and doing nothing except engaging in pointless self-destructive villainy. Danuser wants to do the Arthas parallel with Anduin, with Sylvanas put in the role of having to go through with inflicting on another what happened to her and giving her an actual motive on top of that, but you can't have both take place after each other and as happy as I am to throw BFA Sylvanas down the well, her actions still canonically took place and were the inciting incident for all this and in existing they make this current story beat fall flat.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2021-01-03 at 01:31 AM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by ChairmanKaga View Post
    It's apparently bad somehow because all antagonists should be mustache twirling cardboard.
    She was in all of BfA (and really, before that, even) and now they want to inject nuance more than a year later.

    You don't get to be wishy washy about characterization like that.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The latter bit with Turalyon is what I'd entirely support. Sylvanas having a point will get the Forsaken back from the brink and introduce difference in the Horde again. While the story beat itself would be a mess, it'd have a silver lining. But for the Alliance that silver lining would only be present if the story permits them to act like actual people and take any rehabilitation of Sylvanas as cause for further conflict given everything she's put them through. Preferably with some on-screen wins for team blue.

    Sadly, neither component of this is very likely. What these story beats really seem to be are a re-do now that Danuser is in charge instead of Afrasiabi. Afrasiabi wanted to do the Arthas parallel with Delaryn, casting Sylvanas as comically evil and committed to destroying and spiting a people she's legitimately never acted with before and doing nothing except engaging in pointless self-destructive villainy. Danuser wants to do the Arthas parallel with Anduin, with Sylvanas put in the role of having to go through with inflicting on another what happened to her and giving her an actual motive on top of that, but you can't have both take place after each other and as happy as I am to throw BFA Sylvanas down the well, her actions still canonically took place and were the inciting incident for all this and in existing they make this current story beat fall flat.
    Parallel with Delaryn was so fucked up that i can write a whole essay on how fucked it was in its every aspect.
    But regardless of that.
    "Wins" for Team Blue? Blizz cant have that! No, never! They rather go eat shit then give Alliance anything remotely resembling a straight up win with no "buts, howevers and althoughs" attached.
    Also Forsaken are "on the brink" since BfA while worgen and nelfs were beyond the brink since Cata. Its not even life support anymore, its the same state Shepard was after they fell from a burning Normandy wreck all the way through atmosphere and into the icy wasteland. "Piece of meat with some tubes sticking out". I honestly dont even believe that anything can be done anymore for them.

  13. #53
    They are trying to create a new Lich King. Sylvanas wants a Lich King that has a "conscience"

  14. #54
    I like that in typical Blizzard fashion every outcome here is garbage. Outcome 1. Sylvanas did not strike him and she's not on team Azeroth is reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee. Outcome 2. Anduin gets enslaved and becomes the ultimate weapon (because he's obviouslythe most importantest boi in all of existence) and we're forced to fight him and feel sad about it.

    And if it's outcome 2. we also have a branching paths of 2.A) where we have to break Anduin free from Jailer's grasp and rejoice when he comes back to us (which would be stale as hell and would also cheapen the Jailer - even further than his shitty dialogue already did - because it'd make his powers look laughable) and 2.B) where Anduin falls to the darkness for good in some moronic parallel to Arthas that is forced beyond imagination and where Genn will yell at clouds again once he hears about it.
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  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    She was in all of BfA (and really, before that, even) and now they want to inject nuance more than a year later.

    You don't get to be wishy washy about characterization like that.
    It is as if they remembered that if you want to "redeem" someone you should give them some redeeming qualities. But you cant do that by sprinkling them over the pile of shit you created through the whole expansion.

  16. #56
    The Lightbringer Minikin's Avatar
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    Honestly. I don't mind it too much. This is the first cinematic I could agree with. I am glad they touched on the trauma and the choice (lack of) she faced.

    I'm going to withhold final judgement till the conclusion though. Hopefully it's not a total redemption. But she does deserve something.

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Daily reminder that Garrosh was also about to be converted to Anduinism but skipped into a different planet and went out sticking to his guns. We can only hope Sylvanas finds the balls (ovaries?) to do the same, but I doubt the writers will be as merciful.
    Well....... technically she has literally torn a portal into the afterlife to escape that fate.
    Blood Elves were based on a STRONG request from a poll of Asian players where many remarked on the Horde side that they and their girlfriends wanted a non-creepy femme race to play (Source)

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    It is as if they remembered that if you want to "redeem" someone you should give them some redeeming qualities. But you cant do that by sprinkling them over the pile of shit you created through the whole expansion.
    Sylvanas before and during BfA:
    Not a hint of remorse or hesitation with regards to her victims.

    Sylvanas during these cinematics:
    "But I really don't wanna take away the choice from the golden boy! I'm not all that bad! I have a health sense of empathy!"

    They're like two different characters and you don't get to abruptly turn the wheel from one expansion to another.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Darth-Piekus View Post
    All I see is two villains getting desperate. They lost Denathrius, they lost Muehzala, we are gonna free Primus the Runecarver very soon and the last target is the Jailer with Sylvannas probably being one of the raid bosses. In any case Sylvannas is gonna be confronted by the Alliance and the Horde at some point. I don't see how they can pull that redemption crap. Also nice parallel. Having a runesword now playing Arthas. It's so cute if not pathetic.
    Primus is not the Runecarver

  19. #59
    Herald of the Titans Amaterasu65's Avatar
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    I think she teams up with Anduin but they will make it seem like he's under control and they will backstab the Jailer at the right time. If she really ends up getting Talk no Jutsu'd by Anduin I wish we had seen more of her doubting process. It seems too soon with no proper development.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by RobertMugabe View Post
    Primus is not the Runecarver
    He most likely is tho.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Parallel with Delaryn was so fucked up that i can write a whole essay on how fucked it was in its every aspect.
    But regardless of that.
    "Wins" for Team Blue? Blizz cant have that! No, never! They rather go eat shit then give Alliance anything remotely resembling a straight up win with no "buts, howevers and althoughs" attached.
    Also Forsaken are "on the brink" since BfA while worgen and nelfs were beyond the brink since Cata. Its not even life support anymore, its the same state Shepard was after they fell from a burning Normandy wreck all the way through atmosphere and into the icy wasteland. "Piece of meat with some tubes sticking out". I honestly dont even believe that anything can be done anymore for them.
    No, the Forsaken's destruction is far further ahead than the night elves, since the night elves got their characterization back while the Forsaken were retroactively changed. Off-topic to not go into walls of text better suited for another thread, but one of those races had their home destroyed by Sylvanas and spun a whole (bad) story out of it where they returned to their most popular characterization, poor though it may be and the narrative touched on them. The other lost their home as a result of Sylvanas after having their society rewritten in a side book and proceeded to mull around Orgrimmar with their entire cast vanishing into thin air and their leader defecting by the end, with her second in command offed shortly thereafter. All that needs to be done to fix the Night Elves is actually commit to the current direction and have them nab a win and sow some havoc, fix the framing so they don't get shit for it. By contrast, the Forsaken need the retcons retconned and the Horde itself needs to revert everything it did to itself in the last eight years.

    Worgen might be worse than both in the sense that neither the Forsaken nor the night elves have had a heritage scenario about how they shouldn't exist as a race, where their characters wear worgen tabard and talk about how the most worgen thing of all is not being a worgen, with the only thing a character achieves there being part of her self-insert fantasy. That might genuinely be low-key the worst thing a race's got in the span of a game and I'm surprised more people aren't complaining about it.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

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