And people called me a "crazy doomsayer".

[huth]

Admittedly I wasn't sure if that's the case or not, because I tried to avoid spoilers from beta. If that was supposed to be it, it still feels fumbly to me.

The Venthyr campaign this week literally starts with stating that it happens after he got freed from the castle.

[LuminaL]

All I see is two villains getting desperate. They lost Denathrius, they lost Muehzala, we are gonna free Primus the Runecarver very soon and the last target is the Jailer with Sylvannas probably being one of the raid bosses. In any case Sylvannas is gonna be confronted by the Alliance and the Horde at some point. I don't see how they can pull that redemption crap. Also nice parallel. Having a runesword now playing Arthas. It's so cute if not pathetic.

nah dont you worry about that a bit, we will confront her, then tyrande wants revenge, but because in blizzard writing revenge = evil then we kill tyrande instead for trying to kill devs.. I mean our beloved character.

[huth]

Yeah, but that was when it was Not!The Primus' secret. The Jailer stole his memory of his "grandest design" (that got shattered by a mortal-crafted Light-enchanted Dark Naaru blade, fucking over Jailer's equally grandest design for the Lich King that involved 7D underwater checkers on fire with the Legion in the process) so now his mooks can make it. Maybe he wants to mass-produce them.

His mooks probably made the first one, too. That's what he stole those designs for in the first place, after all, which also included the Helm. The Runecarver made neither.

[Rozz]

The Venthyr campaign this week literally starts with stating that it happens after he got freed from the castle.

Yeah I did the raid earlier, so that's why I'm saying it felt awkward regardless. Of course, soon it'll be more or less seamless but too late for that. What's done is done and I'm happy to see one of my favorite characters.

[Kaindragon]

"The boy-king serves at the master's table. Three lies will he offer you.".

Anduin will play by the game of Jailer/Sylvanas "accepting" the power she is offering, he will tell us(players) lies so we can truly believe that he is a bad guy. And when at the right moment he strike back. And will be hard for him to control his emotions and all the shit that he believes so he can play this game.

Would be awesome

[TigTone]

"The boy-king serves at the master's table. Three lies will he offer you.".

Anduin will play by the game of Jailer/Sylvanas "accepting" the power she is offering, he will tell us(players) lies so we can truly believe that he is a bad guy. And when at the right moment he strike back. And will be hard for him to control his emotions and all the shit that he believes so he can play this game.

Would be awesome

“The Light has made a pact with the enemy of all.” ... “The crown of light will bring only darkness“.

The void doing what they do best predictions of the future.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

you mean in the same place where Calia said they should join the alliance?
Calia is the reason they got killed.

Except you know the part where she kills even those’S coming back and says no one who was on good terms with there human relatives could live as she didn’t want that hope spreading.

[Darth-Piekus]

Except you know the part where she kills even those’S coming back and says no one who was on good terms with there human relatives could live as she didn’t want that hope spreading.

I guess for some it's always the others fault. It's the Fault of the Horde traitors, it's the fault of the Civilians. They must have been traitors. It's the fault of Theramore, Dalaran or insert random city. I guess also the Tree had it coming :P

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Yes, but Faol was Random Killed Person From Lordaeron no. 38292, not the Ranger-General of Silvermoon, who was punished for standing on Arthas' way.

She was made a pawn during unspeakable tortures. Arthas took care for her suffering. He killed her, unmake her, and then made her kill her own people. She witnessed not only the Quel'Thalas fall, he forced her to participate. And even after, Balnazzar was saying that her heart is still elven. Until Wrath of the Lich King, she was mostly sad, sometimes suffering and angry, remembering everything. After that, she commited suicide.

None of this is really an excuse for the way sylvanas acts. thalassian For example pretty much went though all fo the same stuff baring being made a banshee and he’s still good.

The maw is really the only excuse but sylvanas was doing evils stuff before that so it doesn’t really fit.

[Darth-Piekus]

One thing I do not understand is why Sylvannas didn't ask for their help if she wants to make that change instead of causing all of this? If she knew of the way to the Shadowlands I am pretty sure a solution could be found.

[Gelannerai]

None of this is really an excuse for the way sylvanas acts. thalassian For example pretty much went though all fo the same stuff baring being made a banshee and he’s still good.

The maw is really the only excuse but sylvanas was doing evils stuff before that so it doesn’t really fit.

The thing is, Sylvanas wound up in the Maw before the afterlife was broken, so she got there the “right” way (unless Blizzard pulls something out of their ass involving the Jailer somehow circumventing the Arbiter specifically to drag Sylvanas to hell back in Icecrown, which would be yet another internal inconsistency from Blizz’s writers).

[Corseth]

Anduin is trying to point out Sylvanus still has a choice, which is what she's claiming she lacks.

First: We don't know if she'll pick the right thing or not.

Second: Her picking the right thing now is not the same as a 'redemption arc'.

There's no reason Anduin shouldn't /try/ to reach her. It's in his personality to do so.

It's also not out of the realm of possibility that the incredibly obvious role-reversal of her and Anduin, vs her and Arthas, might give her pause or strike a chord where her prior crimes did not. Introspective moments of "wait, am I the bad guy?" don't usually happen because of logic, but because of an emotional response.

Anduin reaching out to Sylvanus is entirely in his character.
Sylvanus having a moment to pause here is within the reach of her character.
Her continuing her current trajectory is more likely, but her changing her arc is also still within the realm of feasible for her character. Both staying with the Jailer, or helping Anduin, are not unfathomable.

None of that is inherently bad writing nor would her helping Anduin constitute a 'redemption' - that would be a considerably, considerably longer road to even consider. But that's not how people act in general, either. 'In the moment' when she will have to make her choice, such a choice is unlikely to be based on some ten year master plan of redeeming herself or not - it's going to be based on the circumstances of the moment and her emotional response to them.

Bad writing wouldn't be Anduin attempting to appeal to Sylvanus, or her having doubts about her course, or even her picking one way or the other, it'd be something like say the Night Elves (and Tyrande) going "Okay cool I guess you're fine now" because of one act. Bad writing would be brushing away all the consequences of her past actions, but that's not the same as having Anduin be able to get through to her now, or not.

This is probably why so many 'redemption' acts in fantasy are also a 'heroic last stand' moment - it avoids having to write the long messy road that is, how do you handle that sort of story?

"she doesn't want to become what the Lich King was."
"Waaaaaay past that"

Yes but that doesn't mean she herself /realized/ that. Maybe seeing Anduin on the other end of *mourne there and him calling it out made her realize she crossed that line. (Or maybe it didn't! We still don't know where this goes).

Everyone self-justifies their behavior; sometimes people are well past the moral event horizon when that self-justification crumbles, but it doesn't mean it /can't/ still crumble.

I guess a lot of words to say "bad writing will be in how her choice this expansion (to keep going or turn back) is handled and the consequences thereof, not the existence of the choice in the first place."

[Utrrabbit]

All I hear is wah wah wah.

[MikeBogina]

This is probably why so many 'redemption' acts in fantasy are also a 'heroic last stand' moment - it avoids having to write the long messy road that is, how do you handle that sort of story?

I like your whole take on it. I think we're going to have a moment where Sylvanas no longer wants to be on the Jailer's side, but it's too late to be one of us and makes a sacrifice. I feel like the Arbiter will save her or save her from mortals who want vengeance and place her in an afterlife to finally find peace, unless she is erased from existence stopping the Jailer.

Anduin's little speeches may have started to put the seeds of doubt in her head, but i think the final moment of her turning on the Jailer will have to do with either learning he was behind the Lich Kings(something she should know at this point) or that he manipulated her by having the Valkyr bring her to the Maw instead of a Kyrian bringing her before the Arbiter...or even learning that Kel'thuzad is working for/with the Jailer... so many reasons for her to go "what a minute".

So yeah I agree it's in anduin's character to try and talk to and reach the good in someone who is current doing evil, but isnt naturally evil. And it's also in Sylvanas' character to have doubts, because she was a good person. My only problem is that it's coming back to mirroring Garrosh2.0 so much, even when they said that's over with, here we are with multiple talks between Anduin and the baddie and ones in chains. oh and references of Arthas(Garrosh brought up Arthas, Sylvanas literally wielding Shalamourne like Arthas did with Frostmourne). it makes you wonder if they're doing it on purpose, despite everyone being mad 2 years ago about it being Garrosh2.0 or they can't help it and dont even know they're doing it.

[javierdsv]

I mean guys, we already have a Revendreth where people that have done atrocities can redeem themselves and clean their souls from their sins. Of course Sylvanas can have a redemption arc.

Also, she has been ruthless for ages, but don't you think it's just expectable that she would hesitate to do Anduin the very exact same thing Arthas did to her and she hated him so much for it? That is like the most personal situation she has been on since like, forever.

Let them make the most pure hearted character become bad and the most currently hated character become good, it's a good twist. For once I think the writing on this Expansion is decent.

[Makabreska]

I mean guys, we already have a Revendreth where people that have done atrocities can redeem themselves and clean their souls from their sins. Of course Sylvanas can have a redemption arc.

Also, she has been ruthless for ages, but don't you think it's just expectable that she would hesitate to do Anduin the very exact same thing Arthas did to her and she hated him so much for it? That is like the most personal situation she has been on since like, forever.

Let them make the most pure hearted character become bad and the most currently hated character become good, it's a good twist. For once I think the writing on this Expansion is decent.

You don't become good just like that, especially not after 10k nelve civilians cooked alive, and more.

[Nathreim]

Sylvanas is right though. The afterlife is run by assholes and needs to be fixed. Our mortal lives mean nothing compared to the eternity of the next life. The best you can hope for is slavery after being mind fucked by blue dbags, or being forced to be a gardener for all eternity.

[Jastall]

I mean, all we need for Sylvi to absolutely loose her shit now is to put Arthas in front of her. I was kinda against of bringing him back, but it seems it's inevitable at this point.

I'd say Arthas coming back was inevitable the moment they datamined so. much. stuff related to him, and then Ion being coy about him showing up or not. The Bastion short was the nail in the coffin, the question now is when he shows up, not if, and what he ends up doing.

[Makabreska]

I'd say Arthas coming back was inevitable the moment they datamined so. much. stuff related to him, and then Ion being coy about him showing up or not. The Bastion short was the nail in the coffin, the question now is when he shows up, not if, and what he ends up doing.

I think he will play a vital part against Jailer. He was a willing LK, he might have an insight/powers to counter him.

- - - Updated - - -

Sylvanas is right though. The afterlife is run by assholes and needs to be fixed. Our mortal lives mean nothing compared to the eternity of the next life. The best you can hope for is slavery after being mind fucked by blue dbags, or being forced to be a gardener for all eternity.

I dunno man, you saw those Venthyr aristocrats living the life? Team Maldraxxus also seems to enjoy the fighting and tests.

[Steelangel]

Too many people are saying that Sylvanas only talked to Anduin “twice” because of the in-game cutscenes.

She could have talked to him dozens, even hundreds of times. Time does not pass sanely in the maw, and between seeing Jaina at the waystone and rescuing her in Torghast, it could have been subjectively experienced as years for her.