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  1. #101
    Old God Vash The Stampede's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZenX View Post
    The video is valid in terms of the underlying subsystem which actually has larger "pipelines".
    Besides the larger L1-L3 caches compared to what is available for even HEDT chips, the memory unit aka the Unified Memory of the M1 is essentially an L4 cache and M1 basically uses its nvme disks more like a RAM. Added to this are the tons of additional custom accelerators on that SoC to perhaps deem the chip operating with a CISC type of ISA as opposed as opposed to the MIPS RISC. So it is really Apples to Oranges comparison at this point between the M1 and Intel/AMD offerings.
    This type of implementation/design is only really feasible for Apple as they are delivering a system where they don't have to be really concerned with different OEM/ODM builds. Furthermore, this type of implementation does raise concerns for vertical scalability that both the Intel and AMD has to deliver to (especially for the small/medium/large businesses that has varying system needs).
    I still don't understand the concern. If it's faster then it's faster. If the larger L1 is tricking benchmarks then we'll catch Apple eventually with real world benchmarks. So far the M1 is doing well everywhere, and not just synthetic benchmarks.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Vash The Stampede View Post
    I still don't understand the concern. If it's faster then it's faster. If the larger L1 is tricking benchmarks then we'll catch Apple eventually with real world benchmarks. So far the M1 is doing well everywhere, and not just synthetic benchmarks.
    But what is being dictated being everywhere else is not necessarily everywhere else for everyone. The person in the video indicates that the SoC is great and performant due to the subsystem changes, however, this does not reflect an IPC improvement that specific people and their workloads would benefit from or even worse would get hamstringed altogether. So trying to point everyone to pick-up one especially considering that its a gen1 product is not really the responsible thing to do which the media seems to be doing right now.

    For example, I'd be interested in seeing the M1 with 512gb storage and 16gb ram (mini) run a 2 node (single-replication) cassandra cluster that allocates 100-150gb virtual-memory (daily twcs for the complete keyspace) for 100 tables against another 8-core machine with equivalent ram and nvme storage as a benchmark or a 500k hourly key-swapping redis cluster (1-master and 2 replicas, ideally more memory is needed for the normal tri-master, 6 replica setup).

    I have been getting the temptation to do so for the fun of it but the abnormal shipment time puts me off and thankfully brings me back to my senses as I don't need to buy something that I don't normally need :S

    Jokes aside, the person who is responsible for procurement goes ahead and purchases these M1 equipped minis or 13" Pros only to realize where the said developers' local workflow gets crippled or not working at all due to the platform difference that M1+macOS was not really fit for.

    Consider it this way, you pilot your quadcopter/drone that can do 40 km/hour vs your bicycle that you ride where you get a top speed of 30 km/hour. Unless the displacement is to capture a view the drone will have no use even if it is faster.

    ...and as I have said I agree with the points of the video with regards to the explanation regarding the differences in the system. But the point where saying the race is not fair is like crying that you did not bring shoes to the track for the 400meter sprint while the other contestant is wearing those hip crocs that are comfy yet not feasible for running even if that said contestant will beat you by 100 meters in the sprint. Though at the end of the day, both will bleed when they try to run the marathon with their respective ensembles.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Vash The Stampede View Post
    Keep in mind we've been down this road before. IBM's PowerPC had manufacturing issues and doesn't meet deadlines that Apple expects. Apple tells everyone that their PowerPC based Macs are the fastest things on Earth. Intel makes the CoreDuo series and completely destros the RISC based PowerPC. This sounds familiar? Intel falls behind in manufacturing, plus they're stuck on 14nm while Apple is enjoying 5nm with the M1. This time around Apple is now making their own chips.

    Intel will eventually recover from their series of mistakes they made and will make everyone want their CPU's again. AMD is the real x86 king and they haven't dealt their hand yet. AMD just released Zen3 on 7nm, and we still haven't seen them use their RDNA graphics on their APU's. Apple picked the best time to release their M1, where Intel can't even, and AMD is in between architecture transitions. The M1's most impressive feature is battery life, though the M1 just barely beat the HP Envy x360, but the pro lasted for almost a day.

    The main thing is software, as Apple's ARM might push developers away. While Apple's emulation of x86 is impressive, it isn't 100% the same performance. BTW, Apple was able to achieve this by actually implementing some x86 memory features into the M1 for better emulation. Apple knew x86 is still going to be a problem for them. It's really early to be using a new CPU architecture that just got released. Rosetta 2 will work but don't expect miracles.
    Yeah what a nice release from AMD, deposits are full of 5600x and 5800x... same as nVidia for the 3000 series.

    I’m stuck with my late 2015 PC because I wanted to change it end of last year but you can’t find stuff.

    At least when Apple releases something you can buy it if you want it.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by bergmann620 View Post
    Spent a ton of money on? The Mini is less than the cost of a enthusiast gpu and power supply.

    I'm not in the guy's mind, so I don't know about what settings he really cares about, but I know lots of people who turn specific effects off to get an edge.

    And, it is amazing, just not in the way you're thinking. It's amazing that you can get a solid WoW experience out of a box smaller than a brownie tin, and at that price point. It's not amazing compared to a $1,200 gaming tower, but it's competitive with a lot of stuff in its' price range, and I can't find anything close in that form factor.
    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    Dude... I am very much not an Apple fanboy. I mean... I have an iPad, does that make me an Apple fanboy? My main PC dual boots Windows 10 and Debian, so I didn't think I was some sort of Apple fanboy.

    If you want to rail on a product because you don't like it, cool, go nuts. But my point was that the majority of people here aren't saying that "this is amazing gaming machine!!!" It's just not a point people are making. People are saying that "sure, you can game on it. Here's are the sacrifices you make". Nobody is buying this as a primary gaming machine thinking it's going to be a top notch rig giving them the best detail and fps. Nobody. So railing against a narrative that doesn't actually exist is just silly.
    Good job failing to read once again, you should go back to primary school before attempting to have a discussion... Once again, what it can do outside of playing WoW is completely irrelevant since that and that alone is the entire point of the thread and of the video i commented on. Go fanboy some more somewhere else.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by killertree View Post
    For the same cost you’d get worse CPU performance which you’re forgetting on purpose. And with the M1 laptops you’re also paying for amazing battery life, super high resolution screen, low weight, etc. To say the $900 M1 MacBook is a bad deal shows your anti-Apple fanboyism
    You what? For the same price you get a laptop that plays WoW better and that comes with a screen and keyboard. Good job being a complete idiot fanboy that can't even understand reality.

    Show me a SINGLE thing I said that was incorrect? Please, I'll wait on that. This thread is about playing WoW on the M1 and my comment was about a video benchmarking a Mac Mini M1 playing WoW. So take that and show me what I said that was wrong. Goooooood luck fanboys.

    Productive discussion can happen without the insults.
    Last edited by chazus; 2021-01-19 at 02:07 AM.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by SigmaShift View Post
    anyone have any specs on how WoW performs on an Apple M1 Mac Mini, since Blizz patched it to be a native app? 1080p? 1440p? What settings?

    I've read on a few forums, it does really well even at medium to high settings, over 60fps. Truth to this?
    why would you get that trash tier computer over an actually good computer? lol

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    Yeah what a nice release from AMD, deposits are full of 5600x and 5800x... same as nVidia for the 3000 series.

    I’m stuck with my late 2015 PC because I wanted to change it end of last year but you can’t find stuff.

    At least when Apple releases something you can buy it if you want it.
    one, Apple computers dont sell even in the same realm of reality that PCs, second the majority of what they sell is their mobile products not including their laptops

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by bloodykiller86 View Post
    why would you get that trash tier computer over an actually good computer? lol
    Did you just skip over the last 5 pages of replies?
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  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by lloose View Post
    Did you just skip over the last 5 pages of replies?
    I thinks thats rather obvious. And/or deliberate trolling.

  8. #108
    Old God Vash The Stampede's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    Yeah what a nice release from AMD, deposits are full of 5600x and 5800x... same as nVidia for the 3000 series.

    I’m stuck with my late 2015 PC because I wanted to change it end of last year but you can’t find stuff.

    At least when Apple releases something you can buy it if you want it.
    You can't find anything from AMD because it's sold out. You can buy things from Apple because it isn't. Either Apple isn't selling as many M1 based devices or Apple's slave labor is working overtime.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by m4xc4v413r4 View Post
    Good job failing to read once again, you should go back to primary school before attempting to have a discussion... Once again, what it can do outside of playing WoW is completely irrelevant since that and that alone is the entire point of the thread and of the video i commented on. Go fanboy some more somewhere else.
    Dude, what is with your outright hostility? Seriously? All we're doing is talking about a piece of frickin' computing hardware. Why on earth are you storming around, frothing at the mouth over it?

    And yeah, the capabilities of the machine are important, because once again, we're not talking about the thing as though it were a gaming console because nobody in their right mind is buying it as one. What it can do outside of gaming is absolutely important to bring up. I don't care if you like or don't like the machine. You continue to seem to think I'm fanboying over a machine I really don't care about one way or another. But dude, honestly. Chill out.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Vash The Stampede View Post
    You can't find anything from AMD because it's sold out. You can buy things from Apple because it isn't. Either Apple isn't selling as many M1 based devices or Apple's slave labor is working overtime.
    It’s sold out because they can’t keep up with production. They were not ready but advertised anyways. Nvidia did the same.

    It’s easy to sell out if you produce far less than request.

    I’m not saying Apple makes better products I’m just saying that when they say something is on sale on day X, apart from sporadic cases (I remember first AirPods) you can buy them on day X and at the supposed price. There are delays sometimes but not 3-4+ months of delays.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    It’s sold out because they can’t keep up with production. They were not ready but advertised anyways. Nvidia did the same.

    It’s easy to sell out if you produce far less than request.

    I’m not saying Apple makes better products I’m just saying that when they say something is on sale on day X, apart from sporadic cases (I remember first AirPods) you can buy them on day X and at the supposed price. There are delays sometimes but not 3-4+ months of delays.
    The shortages all boil down to TSMC, They are almost the only game in town when it comes to sub 10nm silicon. At the end of last year we had xbox, playstation, iphones, amd cpus, amd and nvidia gpus all launch at the same time. Nvidia did go with samsung this round but it appears they also can not keep up with production.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Mekks View Post
    The shortages all boil down to TSMC,
    Not really. Or, more precisely, not directly.

    They are almost the only game in town when it comes to sub 10nm silicon.
    You mean... other than Samsung and GF?

    At the end of last year we had xbox, playstation, iphones, amd cpus, amd and nvidia gpus all launch at the same time
    And the orders for those parts were submitted about this time last year or just after. It appears you are laboring under the misapprehension that orders have quick turnaround times.

    They do not. Six months is about as good as it gets at TSMC and thats if you pay for priority spots.

    So, most chipmakers - or, well, chip designers - are forced to guess how many they will need in the first run of production six to nine months out, and unforseen events can radically alter the market and demand and there is literally NOTHING the company can do about it.

    . Nvidia did go with samsung this round but it appears they also can not keep up with production.
    Samsung can keep up with production just fine.

    The problem was nVidia only ordered X GPUs. When they ran out, its not like they can go to Samsung and be like "we need another batch of 200,000 next week!!!"

    Samsung would be like "cool well pencil that in sometime in February".

    They can only get the GPUs they had already ordered (as is common, nVidia ordered a large batch up front, and then smaller batches to land every few weeks to replace expected sell-through.

    Then the large batch (twice as many GPUs as they prepped for the 20 series launch) sold out instantly.

    And thats that. Samsung cant just crank out another few hundred thousand GPUs or whatever on a moments notice (well, technologically nothing is preventing that - but hundreds of millions of dollars of contracts are). nVidia has to wait until there's free time on the fabs.

    That simple.

    Especially givevn the usual lead time on orders (6+ months), there was very little way that any of these companies could have predicted that demand would spike 400+%, because when they had to submit the orders the severity of COVID and its consequences were not known. And then, on top of that, was a six to twelve week shutdown (depending on the factories) that delayed things even further and caused giant chain reactions in production slowdowns.

  13. #113
    Cool with gaming, but im like...So when can I get an arm CPU as good in a 300-500 dollar acer laptop. Just damn...Apple really has played the long game since Iphone 1.
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  14. #114
    Old God Vash The Stampede's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kagthul View Post
    Not really. Or, more precisely, not directly.



    You mean... other than Samsung and GF?



    And the orders for those parts were submitted about this time last year or just after. It appears you are laboring under the misapprehension that orders have quick turnaround times.

    They do not. Six months is about as good as it gets at TSMC and thats if you pay for priority spots.

    So, most chipmakers - or, well, chip designers - are forced to guess how many they will need in the first run of production six to nine months out, and unforseen events can radically alter the market and demand and there is literally NOTHING the company can do about it.



    Samsung can keep up with production just fine.

    The problem was nVidia only ordered X GPUs. When they ran out, its not like they can go to Samsung and be like "we need another batch of 200,000 next week!!!"

    Samsung would be like "cool well pencil that in sometime in February".

    They can only get the GPUs they had already ordered (as is common, nVidia ordered a large batch up front, and then smaller batches to land every few weeks to replace expected sell-through.

    Then the large batch (twice as many GPUs as they prepped for the 20 series launch) sold out instantly.

    And thats that. Samsung cant just crank out another few hundred thousand GPUs or whatever on a moments notice (well, technologically nothing is preventing that - but hundreds of millions of dollars of contracts are). nVidia has to wait until there's free time on the fabs.

    That simple.

    Especially givevn the usual lead time on orders (6+ months), there was very little way that any of these companies could have predicted that demand would spike 400+%, because when they had to submit the orders the severity of COVID and its consequences were not known. And then, on top of that, was a six to twelve week shutdown (depending on the factories) that delayed things even further and caused giant chain reactions in production slowdowns.
    There's a good chance that part of it is Apple's fault as well. Apple is worth like $2 Trillion? They can pay to have more made than others. Apple slave labor will pick up the cost difference. If AMD or Nvidia can't order as much, then it's because Apple payed more to have theirs made.

  15. #115
    edit: nevermind.
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  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Vash The Stampede View Post
    There's a good chance that part of it is Apple's fault as well. Apple is worth like $2 Trillion? They can pay to have more made than others. Apple slave labor will pick up the cost difference. If AMD or Nvidia can't order as much, then it's because Apple payed more to have theirs made.
    I’m not an Apple fan in the slightest, but can you stop saying “slave labors” referring to them in EVERY post?

    It’s not that the others that produce in China are different from Apple.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mekks View Post
    The shortages all boil down to TSMC, They are almost the only game in town when it comes to sub 10nm silicon. At the end of last year we had xbox, playstation, iphones, amd cpus, amd and nvidia gpus all launch at the same time. Nvidia did go with samsung this round but it appears they also can not keep up with production.
    As a post above said, I suspect that the issue is they produced far less gpus than necessary. I don’t know if it’s because they failed in calculating sells or because Samsung could not produce more than that (difficult to believe) but the launch , customer side, was a complete failure.

    And I’m not an enthusiast, I keep the PC I make for 5 years “untouched” but I won’t be so happy with buying a 3000 series in March/April at full price knowing that in 6 months a new serie will pop out.

  17. #117
    I have quite a few high end pc's. The Mac mini has other use cases, my question though is, what is gaming on wow like with it.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by SigmaShift View Post
    I have quite a few high end pc's. The Mac mini has other use cases, my question though is, what is gaming on wow like with it.
    https://applesilicongames.com/games/...ld-of-warcraft here's some reports.
    My nickname is "LDEV", not "idev". (both font clarification and ez bait)

    yall im smh @ ur simplified english

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by m4xc4v413r4 View Post
    Damn that guy on the first video is the definition of cringe to me... He tries so hard to make it look like the system he just spent a ton of money on is doing great running WoW but he puts everything that actually uses any performance to the minimum and attempts to excuse that with the typical "I don't really like it / it's not necessary" bullshit.

    Over €800 (not counting any peripherals obviously) to have like 30 fps at 10 on an empty area looking at the ground... Jesus people are delusional.
    Like, if a computer does what you need it to do it's fine, I have no problem with that, but don't try to "sell it" as some amazing thing while showing it clearly is not.
    I agree, while the M1 is a decent little machine, and for those that need to use it for apps, its great, blows an Intel Mac Mini out of the water. To gaming, yes it can, is it great, thats up to the user. You can play wow and sc2 on it, this I know. You do have to play with the ingame settings to make a good experience, you can use the presets but optimizing it with custom settings makes it better. Is it 100fps on full tilt settings? No!

    If I want to fire up a 1v1 game on SC2 while I am at the vacation house, I can on med/low. Playing with 4 players, you have to drop the settings to all low. In wow, you can raid on preset 2, maybe 3 if your at 1080p. Open world 5, maybe 6 at 1080p. I run mine at 1440p. That being said, I dont game on it much as I am there to get away and still be able to use it for work if I need, or decide to stay an extra day, I can do my dailies.

    At home, I play on my Windows PC and work on my iMac.

    "Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance."





  20. #120
    Old God Vash The Stampede's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    I’m not an Apple fan in the slightest, but can you stop saying “slave labors” referring to them in EVERY post?

    It’s not that the others that produce in China are different from Apple.
    Their long time supplier is accused of using "forced" labor. In India they were not paying people $7 a month to make iPhones and of course that created riots. I'm sure you're aware of the recent India riots in the news and how they smashed up Apple's manufacturing facilities in protest? Do other companies do the same practice? Probably, but Apple has been frequent in the news about this abhorrent practice. While their company policy claims to be all about equality, just not for those who make their devices.

    So when Apple which is worth $2 Trillion and is able to out buy others in manufacturing to make their M1 chips, which that's partly because of their "slave" labor, then I will continue to do so because I would be correct. If you don't wanna hear it then go to you local Genius Bar and talk about how Apple is all about BLM, while in other countries Apple has enslaved people.

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