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  1. #261
    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    She eventually decided to go for more money but don't give her more credit that what's due. Pelosi has done a lot of positive things but only after others have taken the actual risks. Unfortunately that means she often acts too late and too slow, making her efforts hollow, transparent, and easily defeated.

    You can't forget how she stood for eight hours in the name of healthcare. Can't forgot how terrible aid has been handled under her as well. The current bill was passed with the exact same Congress as before the elections. Wonder why?
    Eventually...you know, after the House passed the May and October stimulus packages with $1,200 in both.

    Who took the risks for her to pass those? Or to jump on board Trump opening up a wedge between him and McConnell with the $2K payments?

    I mean, Sanders filibustered for 8 hours a decade ago. Good on him, but I'm not sure what risk he took with a safe seat and accomplished what appears to be nothing? His sway in the Democratic party came when he ran for president, not before.

    Wonder why? Because Republicans turned it into a political football by sitting on their hands for 6 months and this is all they'd agree to. Good lord, y'all keep acting like Democrats are the fuckin problem despite the fact that House Democrats are the only ones who have made any effort to do anything.

  2. #262
    The Unstoppable Force PACOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Amadeus View Post
    Yeah Nancy fucked up and over played and under estimated what a scumbag Mitch would be.

    But AOC or someone seemingly radical would just give Mitch more fuel for the evil socialist BS.
    Placing someone as young and inexperienced as AOC in that kind of leadership position would be a disaster. Leadership and run the ship is a different skill set from being able to articulate good ideas.

    One gets to throw ideas at a wall without much consequence. The other has to be be able to weigh outcomes, accept the good and the bad, and navigate through all of it.

    Ill meme AOC 2024 all day but she has a put in a lot more time to actually develop leadership skills.

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  3. #263
    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    She eventually decided to go for more money but don't give her more credit that what's due. Pelosi has done a lot of positive things but only after others have taken the actual risks. Unfortunately that means she often acts too late and too slow, making her efforts hollow, transparent, and easily defeated.

    You can't forget how she stood for eight hours in the name of healthcare. Can't forgot how terrible aid has been handled under her as well. The current bill was passed with the exact same Congress as before the elections. Wonder why?
    She often does act too late and slow, but realize she has a big tent that she has to contend with, not to mention obstructionists RNC. Lack of aid was not her fault. But her acting slow and late is a problem. one I have a problem with Warren too tbh. I was huge fan of Warren, but her waiting so damn long to protest against DAPL really put me off of her.

  4. #264
    Void Lord Doctor Amadeus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    Placing someone as young and inexperienced as AOC in that kind of leadership position would be a disaster. Leadership and run the ship is a different skill set from being able to articulate good ideas.

    One gets to throw ideas at a wall without much consequence. The other has to be be able to weigh outcomes, accept the good and the bad, and navigate through all of it.

    Ill meme AOC 2024 all day but she has a put in a lot more time to actually develop leadership skills.

    Yep I agree. I love AOC fire Katie Porter is another. But Mitch would destroy her. No it’s not fair it is BS but it’s called politics for a reason.

    Mitch already maligned over the Green NEW Deal which was good. But Mitch and the Right Wing machine used it.
    #ANTIFA "Intellect alone is useless in a fight...you can't even break a rule, how can you be expected to break bone" Khan Singh

  5. #265
    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Amadeus View Post
    Katie Porter
    If I ever see that lady and she's holding a whiteboard and dry erase marker looking my way I'll be doing my Jesse Owens impression.


  6. #266
    Void Lord Doctor Amadeus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beanman12345 View Post
    She often does act too late and slow, but realize she has a big tent that she has to contend with, not to mention obstructionists RNC. Lack of aid was not her fault. But her acting slow and late is a problem. one I have a problem with Warren too tbh. I was huge fan of Warren, but her waiting so damn long to protest against DAPL really put me off of her.
    Exactly trying to please everyone with no strategy people think well you know mainstream media is left etc.

    No the mainstream leans whichever way gets them views. Just like Talk News Radio heard by old timers that shit seems to lean right hard.

    And when you have preaching the left will take your guns kill your grand children and sell your job to China these listeners believe that shit.

    They aren’t going to embrace AOC. Experience matters.

    Nobody wants to compromise just for the sake of it. And it’s easy to call someone else a sellout when others do nothing but act destructive.

    This is why Cenk and Dore ain’t going anywhere. More money to try to grift on the left. Whether they know or not they help Trump and the Alt Right.

    If the left were ever an echo Chambers or all thought the same we wouldn’t tolerate the bullshit that causes in fighting. But we do be that’s the real deal.

    Instead of telling people only what they want to here. Dore and Cenk want a fucking cult
    #ANTIFA "Intellect alone is useless in a fight...you can't even break a rule, how can you be expected to break bone" Khan Singh

  7. #267
    The Unstoppable Force PACOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beanman12345 View Post
    She often does act too late and slow, but realize she has a big tent that she has to contend with, not to mention obstructionists RNC. Lack of aid was not her fault. But her acting slow and late is a problem. one I have a problem with Warren too tbh. I was huge fan of Warren, but her waiting so damn long to protest against DAPL really put me off of her.
    I appreciate Pelosi but her not passing the gavel this run reminds of athletes who don't know when to retire.

    They've might have met all their goals but accomplished a lot on a high note. They need just one more season though! Then they put people in the awkward situation where someone has to tell the legend to ride the bench while trying not to be disrespectful.

    This would have been a great time for to take a more backseat role while mentoring a new speaker. I feel like it's opportunity lost due to ego.

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  8. #268
    Void Lord Doctor Amadeus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    If I ever see that lady and she's holding a whiteboard and dry erase marker looking my way I'll be doing my Jesse Owens impression.

    [video]

    Lol the way she sets these suits on fire is amazing. I love her that’s how you take on bankers and big pharmaceutical.

    White board: So how much does insulin cost

    Then follow it up by how much did you make....
    #ANTIFA "Intellect alone is useless in a fight...you can't even break a rule, how can you be expected to break bone" Khan Singh

  9. #269
    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    I appreciate Pelosi but her not passing the gavel this run reminds of athletes who don't know when to retire.

    They've might have met all their goals but accomplished a lot on a high note. They need just one more season though! Then they put people in the awkward situation where someone has to tell the legend to ride the bench while trying not to be disrespectful.

    This would have been a great time for to take a more backseat role while mentoring a new speaker. I feel like it's opportunity lost due to ego.
    Who'd take that seat right now, though? I'm genuinely curious because while there are some good stars in the House I don't know of anyone with the political smarts, muscle, and connections as Pelosi who could reasonably fill that role during contentious times, with a Senate that could very well be 50/50 and a more narrow margin in the House.

  10. #270
    The Unstoppable Force PACOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Who'd take that seat right now, though? I'm genuinely curious because while there are some good stars in the House I don't know of anyone with the political smarts, muscle, and connections as Pelosi who could reasonably fill that role during contentious times, with a Senate that could very well be 50/50 and a more narrow margin in the House.
    Not ashamed to say I have no frigging clue, which makes 2 years from now a little more concerning when there's less vets to help that person along the way.

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  11. #271
    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    I appreciate Pelosi but her not passing the gavel this run reminds of athletes who don't know when to retire.

    They've might have met all their goals but accomplished a lot on a high note. They need just one more season though! Then they put people in the awkward situation where someone has to tell the legend to ride the bench while trying not to be disrespectful.

    This would have been a great time for to take a more backseat role while mentoring a new speaker. I feel like it's opportunity lost due to ego.
    She said 2 years ago, she would only run for speaker for 2 terms. That's specifically why she is holding the gavel because people are holding her to her word. If dem's hold majority in 2022 and she's trying for the gaval, I'll agree with this.

  12. #272
    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    Not ashamed to say I have no frigging clue, which makes 2 years from now a little more concerning when there's less vets to help that person along the way.
    To a point, I agree. There are some rising stars for sure, and I hope that Pelosi works hard to mentor some of them (rather than an heir apparent, of sorts) so that there's a crop of strong contenders for Speaker in 2022 and beyond.

  13. #273
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    To a point, I agree. There are some rising stars for sure, and I hope that Pelosi works hard to mentor some of them (rather than an heir apparent, of sorts) so that there's a crop of strong contenders for Speaker in 2022 and beyond.
    And we lost 2 great leaders Cummings and Lewis.

  14. #274
    Quote Originally Posted by Gestopft View Post
    Technical yes; practical no. When it obviously won't pass, co-sponsoring is basically the same symbolic "yes" as a doomed floor vote.
    Still not the same as direct vote.

    Dude, I've been arguing for M4A as both a policy and as something Dems should run on for years. Check the receipts. Forcing a vote right NOW in Congress, as it is constituted, is a potentially damage waste of time.
    Potentially damaging in which way exactly and to whom exactly?

    The worst outcome seems to be status quo. ...which is exactly what you're getting without any vote.

    It's very unlikely that an official "no" from Congress is going to be some sort of mass voter mobilization for the cause, as much as we would like to imagine that it would be.
    Mobilization can happen before vote - because as far as i see #ForceTheVote was about bringing it to vote first in a situation that is most beneficial to it.

    There will be no better opportunity then now for, likely, decades; once epidemic dwindles with vaccinations coming in force a lot of people can turn back to complacency.

    You do that on the ground, not in Congress. Vote more pro-people in, and when you get enough you can pressure the rest by making it clear that this is a voting issue for the electorate. If you vote now, it will be harder to pressure the people that need to be pressured into 'yes.' If there was a crashing and burning in Congress just a few years prior, they will be much more hesitant to switch their positions when there actually might be enough leverage to get it done.
    Harder why exactly if it becomes more pressing for electorate? How exactly do you get more pressure without ever forcing the issue?

    For example, did widespread voting against gay marriage in 1990s/2000s made it harder to pass in 2010s?

  15. #275
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Still not the same as direct vote.
    I said that. But the needed information you can get probably wouldn't be any different. It's not hard to figure out who is on board and who isn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Potentially damaging in which way exactly and to whom exactly?
    Damaging to the cause of M4A. Having a landslide against would scare many representatives away from it for a long time- and give a TON of ammunition to the GOP/centrist Dems. Shit, when Bernie was winning the primary for a brief moment, older Dems were freaking about McGovern 2.0. People remember failures for a looonng time. Dems tried pushing single-payer back in the early 90's and it crashed and burned then- and almost 30 years later the party is just getting back to the point where a significant chunk of the Reps support the plan. Granted, there were other reasons the party turned away, too, but I'd rather not have the issue disappear for another 30 years, thank you very much.

    Lots of people have sensed a change in the winds and are impatient- which is perfectly normal. Support has been gaining. The battle of ideas is being won. Momentum will continue to grow, and yes, people should make it clear that they support it and will vote on it. Representatives should be pressured to support it. But forcing a vote is silly, unnecessary, and again, could be counterproductive.

    Speaking of a faction of Congress forcing votes, here's the Tea Party's legislative accomplishments:
    -
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    Hrm.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    The worst outcome seems to be status quo. ...which is exactly what you're getting without any vote.
    The status quo is happening right now regardless. Voting now won't change that, but as I said- it could scare the institution away from it for quite a while.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Mobilization can happen before vote - because as far as i see #ForceTheVote was about bringing it to vote first in a situation that is most beneficial to it.

    There will be no better opportunity then now for, likely, decades; once epidemic dwindles with vaccinations coming in force a lot of people can turn back to complacency.
    The US healthcare system will still be the same garbage it was before the pandemic. People will still be breaking their insulin in half, dying because they didn't have insurance, going bankrupt even if they had insurance, and watching prices for premiums and prescriptions increase year after year. The healthcare system won't get any better or cheaper, and that will continue to be a massive problem. The issue isn't going away, not by a long shot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Harder why exactly if it becomes more pressing for electorate? How exactly do you get more pressure without ever forcing the issue?
    As I explained above. Political parties remember failures. You don't think that Democratic Reps/Senators that might be on the fence about it aren't going to point to a recent crash and burn vote as a reason to hold off?

    You build momentum by winning seats or making credible primary threats. I don't think forcing a vote that clearly isn't going anywhere is going to be the kind of pressure campaign you think it is. It's simply trying to break down a castle wall when you have a hammer instead of a battering ram.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    For example, did widespread voting against gay marriage in 1990s/2000s made it harder to pass in 2010s?
    1) Gay marriage was never passed by Congress. It was specific state legislatures that did, and then the SCOTUS ultimately legalized it in all states.
    2) It took years of local, on the ground action to build the legal frameworks and public support. Sort of the thing I'm suggesting M4A proponents continue to do now. Gay marriage advocates didn't blow their load early at the federal level.
    Last edited by Gestopft; 2021-01-06 at 02:52 AM.
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  16. #276
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    We'd love to.

    The problem is that every time we try to deal with the main roadblock to getting them medical coverage, folks like you start complaining that we haven't been listening to the roadblock's concerns about economic anxiety and the pace of change.
    It's one of the most common problems I see from the alt-left, they ask for an inch, you give them an inch and they suddenly complain that you didn't give them a mile.

    Change happens over time, gradually. Unless there's bloody revolution there is no possible way that dramatic change can happen in this country overnight. That's one of the biggest faults I've seen of the alt-left, their inability to comprehend that the US cannot become Scandinavia in the course of a single week. That and they just love to make enemies out of Democrats and other centrists, the only people politically close enough to the alt-left that have the power to actually push for further left policy. Likewise, for some reason they seem to ignore the alt-right as a problem, ultimately making moderates their enemies. Like, why?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    I don't care if he committed tax fraud. Scoring political victories and crushing the aspirations of your political opponents is more important than adhering to moral principles.
    Knadra finally just admitting Trumpkins care more about political victories than morals.

  17. #277
    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    It's one of the most common problems I see from the alt-left, they ask for an inch, you give them an inch and they suddenly complain that you didn't give them a mile.
    Can we find a better name than the one the Fox News pundits made up?

    Personally I like the moniker "dumb-dumb left." I've seen that thrown around.
    "We must make our choice. We may have democracy, or we may have wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both."
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  18. #278
    I am Murloc! Pro-Violence's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Good lord, y'all keep acting like Democrats are the fuckin problem despite the fact that House Democrats are the only ones who have made any effort to do anything.
    Just because the Republicans are awful, doesn't make Pelosi any less awful. Maybe it's because I'm not stuck in this american perspective, but if Pelosi ran in any other modern western nation she would most likely be regarded as a conservative, especially in the manner in which she only seems to do the bare minimum.

    Furthermore, most everyone that is 'supportive' of her has some kind of odd narrative to try and discredit any actual progressives in the Democratic Party further to the left of Pelos - trying to discredit these people with all sorts of very "american"-esque accusations from the cookbook of the Republican Party. The truth is that the USA needs to become a whole lot less cartoon-villain conservative, including the Democratic Party and Pelosi is part of the problem, part of the "old guard".

    But I do know why you guys follow this narrative, your media is owned by cartoon villain corporations, and every bit of news you get is skewed with extreme bias one way or the other. The idea that people willingly support a career / crony politician like Pelosi seems utterly dystopian to me.
    Last edited by Pro-Violence; 2021-01-06 at 09:38 AM.
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  19. #279
    Quote Originally Posted by Gestopft View Post
    Can we find a better name than the one the Fox News pundits made up?

    Personally I like the moniker "dumb-dumb left." I've seen that thrown around.
    I call them the New Left, or if I'm feeling particularly French and obnoxious, the Neuf Left.

  20. #280
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    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    I call them the New Left, or if I'm feeling particularly French and obnoxious, the Neuf Left.
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