View Poll Results: Do you support universal health care? Why or why not?

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  • Yes

    143 87.20%
  • No

    15 9.15%
  • Other / I don't know / It's complicated

    6 3.66%
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  1. #521
    Quote Originally Posted by Gestopft View Post
    Do you somehow not understand how necessity makes it harder to bargain a price down?
    What makes you think I don't understand that? As I said, that's a feature of the system to me. If it's because you find that point of view so heartless you can't imagine how anyone would hold it, well.. I'm here to show you people can and do take that position. Not everyone is worth saving.

  2. #522
    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    Except it does, because people have limited resources at their disposal to trade for those goods. So, even if they personally value their lives infinitely, others do not, and they have limited resources. Even if you'd give $1,000,000 just to live one more day, if you don't actually HAVE $1,000,000, you can't do that. I think it's important to force people to reconcile with the reality that they don't have infinite value and that some people just don't care about them.
    so why US can have a shittier system than even cuba?
    and you can spout anarco liberistic bullshit all day, the fact that someone cant pay 1kk for his health doesnt stop him to perceive his health 1kk value. and thats why we stop the business greed to predate the desperation of people. it warps the market in a way that isnt fixable by laissez-faire, to the contrary, it only worse it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Cæli View Post
    I'm not sure how a company would only have the state as a customer, I'm also not sure how competition would work, such companies could also get demand from other countries or sell on the internet I suppose, universal health care or not, the demand is the same to me, so prices level too logically. or maybe not. it's just much more complicated that what I thought
    because the health system is national? i mean, it can be true even for single insurance, the point is that its single. then sure, having a world system would optimize it even further, but million of people nations are enought to let that system works... internet is a non factor, first because most of the drugs have to be taken in the hospital, then internet smuggling works when there are small quantities, you cant realistically import without checks medicines for millions of people (illegals drugs arent comparable in any way).
    12/6/2009 -23/11/2020 rip little deathstalker Ferretti. proud forsaken, enemy of the livings

  3. #523
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cæli View Post
    I'm not american, I think I didn't get your point, billionaires would go to the best places I suppose
    Because you focused on a meaningless part of what I said... do you think I know where the rich eat? I googled and then posted the most fancy sounding place I saw on first page... if I didn’t copy and paste, that spelling wouldn’t even be close.

    but the point is the tax that goes from the non wealthy to the wealthy, which makes little to no difference for the wealthy, but a difference for the non wealthy
    How much? How much does every person contribute to the healthcare of the wealthy? What is the actual cost? Less than a penny from each person going to the healthcare of the wealthy, while getting healthcare your self? Please... quantify your assertion...

    If you need an example why populism is so bad... this... the wealthy will also get coverage if it’s universal... is a perfect example... You are bitching about less than a penny, because you think repeating the rich and wealthy, will intrinsically sway people from universal healthcare?

    Universal Healthcare > a penny to the rich
    Last edited by Felya; 2021-02-12 at 12:54 AM.
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
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  4. #524
    Merely a Setback JohnBrown1917's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    What makes you think I don't understand that? As I said, that's a feature of the system to me. If it's because you find that point of view so heartless you can't imagine how anyone would hold it, well.. I'm here to show you people can and do take that position. Not everyone is worth saving.
    You mean the poor and working class are not worth saving. Just be honest.
    Quote Originally Posted by Milchshake View Post
    it’s mostly a syndicalist fantasy that “the workers” are going to rise up, which is disconnected from the fact that “the workers” are your racist uncle and jerk co-workers who you don’t like.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    The election has passed and 58 million working class Americans stood up and proved that they are in fact your racist uncle and jerk co-workers.
    They really can't help but show disdain for the working class.

  5. #525
    Quote Originally Posted by omeomorfismo View Post
    so why US can have a shittier system than even cuba?
    Shittier how? And for who? Here's a hint: I don't give a flying fuck about averages. I only care about achievers and people who decently represent the capabilities of humanity.

    the fact that someone cant pay 1kk for his health doesnt stop him to perceive his health 1kk value.
    Cool, he can think he's worth that all he wants. No one cares, and if he doesn't have the actual means of backing that up, then he's delusional and should be forced to reconcile that.

    and thats why we stop the business greed to predate the desperation of people. it warps the market in a way that isnt fixable by laissez-faire, to the contrary, it only worse it.
    Nah, it only worsens it in certain ways that you personally care about. It makes it better in some. People should be free to exploit desperation as much as they're able. Maybe don't be so weak or helpless that you can be exploited. Maybe we should let that suffering be a lesson as to why you should strive harder to avoid it, and maybe we should afford people the freedom to decide how much or how little they universally care about humanity.

  6. #526
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBrown1917 View Post
    You mean the poor and working class are not worth saving. Just be honest.
    I want to see you reply to Cæli... I want to see a right and left wing populist argue, to end up on the solution being a new word for fascism...
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    No amount of belief makes something a fact. - James Randi

  7. #527
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBrown1917 View Post
    You mean the poor and working class are not worth saving. Just be honest.
    I make no supposition. I could see most of the poor working class not being worth saving to society, but I don't presume to make that choice for them. However many people live when people are left to freely share as much help as they want is the exact number of people who are worth saving.

  8. #528
    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    Shittier how? And for who? Here's a hint: I don't give a flying fuck about averages. I only care about achievers and people who decently represent the capabilities of humanity.


    Cool, he can think he's worth that all he wants. No one cares, and if he doesn't have the actual means of backing that up, then he's delusional and should be forced to reconcile that.


    Nah, it only worsens it in certain ways that you personally care about. It makes it better in some. People should be free to exploit desperation as much as they're able. Maybe don't be so weak or helpless that you can be exploited. Maybe we should let that suffering be a lesson as to why you should strive harder to avoid it, and maybe we should afford people the freedom to decide how much or how little they universally care about humanity.
    shittier because US pay more for worse health system. its simple.
    you want "worth people" pay more only to culling "useless people"? ok, but here we are discussing healthcare, so at least try to write a consistent line, or open a genocide thread. as you prefer....

    /pat
    12/6/2009 -23/11/2020 rip little deathstalker Ferretti. proud forsaken, enemy of the livings

  9. #529
    The Undying Themius's Avatar
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    One hospital... how much is a c-section? 6k-60k

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-muc...d=hp_lead_pos5

    When a woman gets a caesarean section at the gleaming new Van Ness location of Sutter Health’s California Pacific Medical Center, the price might be $6,241. Or $29,257. Or $38,264. It could even go as high as $60,584.

    The rate the hospital charges depends on the insurance plan covering the birth. At the bottom end of the scale is a local health plan that serves largely Medicaid recipients. At the top are prices for women whose plans don’t have the San Francisco hospital in their insurers’ network.

    The nation’s roughly 6,000 hospitals have begun to reveal the secret rates they negotiate with insurers for a range of procedures. The data offer the first full look inside the confidential deals that set healthcare rates for insurers and employers covering more than 175 million Americans. The submissions also illuminate how widely prices vary—even for the same procedure, performed in the same facility—depending on who is paying.

    “It is shining a light on the insanity of U.S. healthcare pricing,” said Niall Brennan, chief executive of the Health Care Cost Institute, a nonprofit that analyzes medical costs. “It’s at the center of the affordability crisis in American healthcare.”
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black people in america should be happy their ancestors where slaves so they could have a good live.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black women are racist. Im the one trying to make her[my wife] behave like white people and not say it out loud.
    Totally not racist

  10. #530
    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    Except it does, because people have limited resources at their disposal to trade for those goods. So, even if they personally value their lives infinitely, others do not, and they have limited resources. Even if you'd give $1,000,000 just to live one more day, if you don't actually HAVE $1,000,000, you can't do that. I think it's important to force people to reconcile with the reality that they don't have infinite value and that some people just don't care about them.
    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    People should be free to exploit desperation as much as they're able. Maybe don't be so weak or helpless that you can be exploited. Maybe we should let that suffering be a lesson as to why you should strive harder to avoid it, and maybe we should afford people the freedom to decide how much or how little they universally care about humanity.
    Does every post you make just serve to remind everyone what an unfeeling twat you are? We get it, you don't give a fuck about anyone but yourself, just let those poor people die, right? You're the biggest example on these forums of what is wrong with so many Americans.

  11. #531
    Merely a Setback JohnBrown1917's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    Shittier how? And for who? Here's a hint: I don't give a flying fuck about averages. I only care about achievers and people who decently represent the capabilities of humanity.


    Cool, he can think he's worth that all he wants. No one cares, and if he doesn't have the actual means of backing that up, then he's delusional and should be forced to reconcile that.


    Nah, it only worsens it in certain ways that you personally care about. It makes it better in some. People should be free to exploit desperation as much as they're able. Maybe don't be so weak or helpless that you can be exploited. Maybe we should let that suffering be a lesson as to why you should strive harder to avoid it, and maybe we should afford people the freedom to decide how much or how little they universally care about humanity.
    Better for anybody who wants a vaccine against lung cancer... oh and for healthcare to be cheaper.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    I make no supposition. I could see most of the poor working class not being worth saving to society, but I don't presume to make that choice for them. However many people live when people are left to freely share as much help as they want is the exact number of people who are worth saving.
    I get it, you want to go back to feudalism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Milchshake View Post
    it’s mostly a syndicalist fantasy that “the workers” are going to rise up, which is disconnected from the fact that “the workers” are your racist uncle and jerk co-workers who you don’t like.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    The election has passed and 58 million working class Americans stood up and proved that they are in fact your racist uncle and jerk co-workers.
    They really can't help but show disdain for the working class.

  12. #532
    The Normal Kasierith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    Except it does, because people have limited resources at their disposal to trade for those goods. So, even if they personally value their lives infinitely, others do not, and they have limited resources. Even if you'd give $1,000,000 just to live one more day, if you don't actually HAVE $1,000,000, you can't do that. I think it's important to force people to reconcile with the reality that they don't have infinite value and that some people just don't care about them.
    So the basis of universal healthcare is that 1) those costs are socialized. They are born by the entire population, and for a population of 350 million a million dollars isn't actually a huge burden. 2) the reason it costs 1,000,000 is typically less due to the actual costs of product and labor, and more due to drug companies and healthcare services being able to set their prices in a market with a thousand different payers, none of which have the capacity to set terms. In Germany, for example, the government decides the costs of all services up front, taking into account the skill and labor involved, the cost of the product, and the cost of competitor products compared to relative efficacy. If a company wants to charge 20% more for a product that is statistically inferior to the reference product, Germany can tell them to shove it, or come back with a lower price. In the US all they have to do is market it aggressively and get enough doctors and systems on board to create demand, at which point insurance companies will inevitably have to add it to formularies to avoid lawsuits (and pass the cost on to their consumers)

  13. #533
    I would be for it in a perfect world, but unfortuantely we do not live in a perfect world. If you go the Universal Healthcare route you remove all incentive from the market. Why spend 10+ years in medical school if you are going to be dictated how much money you can make by the government? You will have no more innovation in drug development because there will be no incentive to spend billions developing life saving medicine if there is no way to make money doing it.

    Before Covid our biggest cause of National debt was all of the money that the government has stolen from people for decades via Social Security and then gives them less than half of that money back, but in the end they don't have enough to pay out to all the giant pensions and SS that they owe people. It is going to take a generation to say F this I am willing to give up 20 years of SS so that it does not keep screwing me out of money and my kids in the future I am willing to do that give up all the money I have paid in so I can be done with having it continually stolen the rest of my life.

  14. #534
    Quote Originally Posted by UnifiedDivide View Post
    unfeeling twat you are?
    Nope, I feel plenty.

    We get it, you don't give a fuck about anyone but yourself
    Do you actually believe this? Or are you just exaggerating the fact that I seem to be fine with some people dying as a result of effectively being shunned by the society they're surrounded with? I have friends, a job, I'm married, etc

    just let those poor people die, right?
    If they can't garner the help and support of willing participants and they die due to that, then yes, let them die.

    You're the biggest example on these forums of what is wrong with so many Americans.
    Stop binding people together. Let those ties form naturally, and let those who can't form ties (especially in cases where they can't form ties but REALLY need them) go. Not that hard.

  15. #535
    Merely a Setback JohnBrown1917's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by schwank05 View Post
    I would be for it in a perfect world, but unfortuantely we do not live in a perfect world. If you go the Universal Healthcare route you remove all incentive from the market. Why spend 10+ years in medical school if you are going to be dictated how much money you can make by the government? You will have no more innovation in drug development because there will be no incentive to spend billions developing life saving medicine if there is no way to make money doing it.

    Before Covid our biggest cause of National debt was all of the money that the government has stolen from people for decades via Social Security and then gives them less than half of that money back, but in the end they don't have enough to pay out to all the giant pensions and SS that they owe people. It is going to take a generation to say F this I am willing to give up 20 years of SS so that it does not keep screwing me out of money and my kids in the future I am willing to do that give up all the money I have paid in so I can be done with having it continually stolen the rest of my life.
    Yeah, thats why the first covid vaccine came from Germany or why Cuba has a ton of doctors.
    Quote Originally Posted by Milchshake View Post
    it’s mostly a syndicalist fantasy that “the workers” are going to rise up, which is disconnected from the fact that “the workers” are your racist uncle and jerk co-workers who you don’t like.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    The election has passed and 58 million working class Americans stood up and proved that they are in fact your racist uncle and jerk co-workers.
    They really can't help but show disdain for the working class.

  16. #536
    Quote Originally Posted by schwank05 View Post
    I would be for it in a perfect world, but unfortuantely we do not live in a perfect world. If you go the Universal Healthcare route you remove all incentive from the market. Why spend 10+ years in medical school if you are going to be dictated how much money you can make by the government? You will have no more innovation in drug development because there will be no incentive to spend billions developing life saving medicine if there is no way to make money doing it.

    Before Covid our biggest cause of National debt was all of the money that the government has stolen from people for decades via Social Security and then gives them less than half of that money back, but in the end they don't have enough to pay out to all the giant pensions and SS that they owe people. It is going to take a generation to say F this I am willing to give up 20 years of SS so that it does not keep screwing me out of money and my kids in the future I am willing to do that give up all the money I have paid in so I can be done with having it continually stolen the rest of my life.
    Did it occur to you that people go to medical school because they want to practice medicine? Furthermore, its the management and executives of corporations making most of the money.

    Drug innovation is mostly done by the government already. Drug company R&D is mostly trying to refresh patents they own so they can bleed people for more money.

    Social security is a closed system and has nothing to do with the debt or deficit.

    A massive portion of the US debt is from healthcare spending. Why is it out of control? Because the government is giving out massive amounts of money to previously mentioned corporations who jack up prices because they can get away with it.

  17. #537
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    One hospital... how much is a c-section? 6k-60k

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-muc...d=hp_lead_pos5
    Well the actual cost is the same its just how much they get paid, based on the WSJ assumption that every service under one code is the same (which is a huge glaring mistake)
    More of an insurance issue than a hospital issue.



    The 6k amount is regulated by the govt under Medicaid. This is a huge Medicaid hospital per the article so they do not want to lose that business so they accept the rate and patients.

    The 60k is how much insurance companies who chose to not contract with the hospital so they are not sending patients there unless its an emergency or the patient decides to absorb the cost knowing its out of network.

    Also the WSJ does not point out in the full article that the cost varies based on the services provided during a C-Section. Even those billed under the same "codes". So its not shocking that a hospital that has a discount off billed charges pays more than a hospital that has a flat rate contracted allowance.

    WSJ also fails to provide what the actual cost of a C-Section is to the hospital. Is it 6k?10k?40k? How much do they lose on Medicaid C-Sections that need to be made up on other bills? How many patients who would normally see a bill for 60k end up paying $0 because they get charity care? How many times is the 60k rate paid in full by an insurance company because of an emergency delivery when they were planned for an in-network hospital delivery? etc etc.

    WSJ also incorrectly says "charged" a lot and when it does use it appropriately it does not substantiate that not all C-Section patients receive the exact same services. It does not take into account that a patient could be in labor at the hospital for 11 hours before they decide to do a C-Section vs a pre-planned C-Section because of circumstances. Gee i wonder which bill will be bigger. Its the same "billing code" but those codes allow for a shit ton of variances. Hell you can have 25,000 worth of medication because of underlying pre existing conditions and it will still be billed under the same C-Section "code" as a standard no problem C-Section code.

    I'd love to see the actual WSJ data on this.

    The hospital most likely does not charge different amounts, but they do have different "contractual allowances". They do not maintain a different charge master for each entity it would run afoul of CMS rules.

    This whole article is basically a WOW piece and headline fodder. But then again the actual details would melt eyes since its so complicated that even a single code would need pages and pages of quantification and analysis.




    Granted this basically proves how we are already paying for other people's health care without even knowing it. This is how the hospital makes up for the 6k payment from Medicaid. How they pay for charity care. etc etc.
    Though Medicaid, Medicare, VA, ACA, and charity care spending already prove this in spades.

    It shows how we can pay for a universal system because we are basically already funding one.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by schwank05 View Post
    I would be for it in a perfect world, but unfortuantely we do not live in a perfect world. If you go the Universal Healthcare route you remove all incentive from the market. Why spend 10+ years in medical school if you are going to be dictated how much money you can make by the government? You will have no more innovation in drug development because there will be no incentive to spend billions developing life saving medicine if there is no way to make money doing it.

    .
    Your first paragraph has been disproven a billion times over by companies in other countries that have universal healthcare and the fact that most research is non profit. Hell the first COVID vaccine was finished in Germany first wasn't it not to mention vaccines created in other countries like China and Russia not for profit....???

    Quote Originally Posted by schwank05 View Post

    Before Covid our biggest cause of National debt was all of the money that the government has stolen from people for decades via Social Security and then gives them less than half of that money back, but in the end they don't have enough to pay out to all the giant pensions and SS that they owe people. It is going to take a generation to say F this I am willing to give up 20 years of SS so that it does not keep screwing me out of money and my kids in the future I am willing to do that give up all the money I have paid in so I can be done with having it continually stolen the rest of my life.
    You know that no money has ever been stolen from people from Social Security right?
    No money has ever been used for anything but SS payments and investments in bonds so SS money collects interest. Not a dime has ever left SS, that has not paid for SS operations and payments of benefits.

    SS pays out on average way more than people pay in because of investment/interest gains. Its one of the reasons why its going to be unable to fund its future cost its actually way to generous.

    SS does not pay out pensions.

    You sound like someone who should go and actually read up on how SS works.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBrown1917 View Post
    You mean the poor and working class are not worth saving. Just be honest.
    Quote Originally Posted by UnifiedDivide View Post
    Does every post you make just serve to remind everyone what an unfeeling twat you are? We get it, you don't give a fuck about anyone but yourself, just let those poor people die, right? You're the biggest example on these forums of what is wrong with so many Americans.
    Oh god can we not devolve again with this dude and derail the thread on his fake logic.

    He's just doing it to get a rise out of everyone and it adds nothing to the discussion.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by schwank05 View Post
    I would be for it in a perfect world, but unfortuantely we do not live in a perfect world. If you go the Universal Healthcare route you remove all incentive from the market. Why spend 10+ years in medical school if you are going to be dictated how much money you can make by the government? You will have no more innovation in drug development because there will be no incentive to spend billions developing life saving medicine if there is no way to make money doing it.

    .
    btw doctors still make 200-300-500-600k+ in Canada a year and have way less expenses overall.
    Buh Byeeeeeeeeeeee !!

  18. #538
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    One hospital... how much is a c-section? 6k-60k

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-muc...d=hp_lead_pos5
    I am always amazed at American prices for healthcare. C-section is about €3k in Germany, natural childbirth a bit more than half of that.

  19. #539
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zan15 View Post
    The 6k amount is regulated by the govt under Medicaid. This is a huge Medicaid hospital per the article so they do not want to lose that business so they accept the rate and patients.

    The 60k is how much insurance companies who chose to not contract with the hospital so they are not sending patients there unless its an emergency or the patient decides to absorb the cost knowing its out of network.
    So, you're saying that it's the insurance companies that are the issue with healthcare in America?
    - Lars

  20. #540
    Quote Originally Posted by Muzjhath View Post
    So, you're saying that it's the insurance companies that are the issue with healthcare in America?
    They are the symptom. If the healthcare industry exists to make a profit, expect the costs and anti-consumer practices.
    The wise wolf who's pride is her wisdom isn't so sharp as drunk.

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