View Poll Results: Do you support universal health care? Why or why not?

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164. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes

    143 87.20%
  • No

    15 9.15%
  • Other / I don't know / It's complicated

    6 3.66%
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  1. #161
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    First of all, let's be clear. "Universal health care" doesn't actually imply "government health care". A private charity can start its own system completely separate from government that provides a level of health care to everyone. So I think if you asked the public if they would like either a universal government health care system or a universal charity health care system, I think pretty much the entire population would say yes to at least 1 of those options. The right wing only stands against the idea because to them it means bigger government. But they would be extremely likely to say a big yes to some charity offering universal health care.
    There is no such thing as universal charity healthcare. Which charity do you want to handle your healthcare... The Bill and Linda Gates foundation or the Clinton Foundation?

    One more question... Is this charity going to be tax deductible?
    Last edited by Felya; 2021-01-05 at 01:37 AM.
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    No amount of belief makes something a fact. - James Randi

  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    There is no such thing as universal charity healthcare. Which charity do you want to handle your healthcare... The Bill and Linda Gates foundation or the Clinton Foundation?

    One more question... Is this charity going to be tax deductible?
    Maybe it is tax deductible. Or maybe not. But its an idea.

  3. #163
    Master of the Void The Dark One's Avatar
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    I was born and raised in the US, but now live in New Zealand when we have M4A.

    I can unequivocally say that M4A is a million times better.
    Fundamental civil rights are only "political" if you're trying to take them away from people.

  4. #164
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fahrenheit View Post
    In principal, I support it. But my wife and I make well into six figures and have platinum level care for not that much. I’d have to see what the plan entails, and how much my out of pocket costs rise.
    If you approach the question from a perspective of "what's in it for me?" rather than "what's best for the health and success of the nation as a whole?", then you're already not approaching the question from a political point of view. It's the same mindset that leads politicians to misuse public funds for personal gains. No consideration for the public good, just personal profit and gain.

    It's fine if you don't have political views, but don't act like your refusal to think beyond yourself would amount to a political opinion. It's the absence of a political opinion.

    It's like saying "I don't much care about the debate about capital punishment. I'm not on Death Row." It just demonstrates a complete misalignment of thinking.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    First of all, let's be clear. "Universal health care" doesn't actually imply "government health care". A private charity can start its own system completely separate from government that provides a level of health care to everyone. So I think if you asked the public if they would like either a universal government health care system or a universal charity health care system, I think pretty much the entire population would say yes to at least 1 of those options. The right wing only stands against the idea because to them it means bigger government. But they would be extremely likely to say a big yes to some charity offering universal health care.
    A few points;

    1> A non-governmental charity-based universal health care system would only stick around as long as said charity. They could just . . . stop, at any moment.
    2> Provision of care would also be down to the mores of those running the charity, not the public good.
    3> There isn't remotely enough funding via charity for this to be feasible, and it's ridiculous to bring the idea up in light of that.
    4> Consistency of funding is also a pretty fundamental requirement, and charity is anything but consistent.

    5> Somewhat separate from the above; the idea of "bigger government is bad" is just inherently dishonest, and anyone bringing that up can safely be discarded as not having a useful opinion on political matters. "Bigger" is a term that only has a relative meaning, not an objective one, and it's a term that's only applied to try and argue against funding, generally of social benefits programs, by pretending that the speaker's issue is cost or government overreach. That's not their actual issue. If it were, they'd be able to speak to specifics, and show another way to approach the issue that produces similar/better outcomes. Their actual issue is a straight opposition to the program itself. If it's universal healthcare, they misanthropically want to see the poor suffer and die off. If it's tuition coverage/student loan payoffs, it's their hostility to education as a concept. Etc. This is made abundantly clear because they'll never accept reductions in government power or spending on issues they support. That's why you'll see the same "smaller government!" types pretty much never support "defund the police" movements, even though that's exactly what they seem to be talking about, overtly. Because it isn't actually about that, and never was. They're just lying to you, because they know how awful the truth makes them look.

  5. #165
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    Maybe it is tax deductible. Or maybe not. But its an idea.
    No, it’s not an idea at all. Not knowing, is not an idea.

    You forgot the other question I asked... What charity will you turn to? Bill and Malinda Gates foundation or Clinton Foundation?

    I’d ask about Trump’s charity, but I am sure you know he was ordered to pay two million... because Trump misused the funds...

    Donald J. Trump Pays Court-Ordered $2 Million For Illegally Using Trump Foundation Funds
    https://ag.ny.gov/press-release/2019...ump-foundation

    So... which charity will you trust, when begging for care to not die?
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    No amount of belief makes something a fact. - James Randi

  6. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by OwenBurton View Post
    Do you support universal health care? Why or why not?
    I do.. as well as government funded mental healthcare and government funded dental healthcare.

    Since i am not american i choose not to vote in the poll though

    As for why? This is close enough to what i am thinking

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Yes.

    Because the alternative is the fetishization of human suffering.

    It pretty much is that black and white.
    But there is even more to it if caring about other people does not matter

    We are all poorer for those we leave behind, if we do not offer quality schools, if we do not offer quality healthcare etc we leave portions of the population behind, people in poor health will offer less to society and society will prosper less
    Last edited by Xarkan; 2021-01-05 at 05:22 AM.

  7. #167
    Old God Vash The Stampede's Avatar
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    I'm for Universal Health care because I don't like people dying. Dead is bad too. Let the rich pay something for once.

  8. #168
    Nobody should ever be worried about costs when they fall ill or have an accident. Want to capitalize the medical industry? Do it with health spas and other non-essentials. When hospitals operate with profit in mind, it leads to the situation now where we are drastically overpaying for medical expenses. Private insurance sounds like a good answer to some but profit is their priority as well.

    It is one industry that should be socialized. If it hits the taxes, well it still takes over health insurance costs every month without having to worry about insane deducibles.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    As far as mandating people to do things? Yes. Because free will and freedom are the literal most important virtues to me and a lot of americans.
    Mandating who to do what? What does universal healthcare introduce that goes against free will and freedom?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    First of all, let's be clear. "Universal health care" doesn't actually imply "government health care". A private charity can start its own system completely separate from government that provides a level of health care to everyone. So I think if you asked the public if they would like either a universal government health care system or a universal charity health care system, I think pretty much the entire population would say yes to at least 1 of those options. The right wing only stands against the idea because to them it means bigger government. But they would be extremely likely to say a big yes to some charity offering universal health care.
    Who's funding the charity?
    The wise wolf who's pride is her wisdom isn't so sharp as drunk.

  9. #169
    No, it's a really bad idea as are all mandatory/guaranteed income systems riddled with bureaucracy.

    The result would be long wait times, bad quality healthcare and you'd get refused experimental treatment or have to pay for for rare things anyway. Also it would really hurt progress don't really have a good incentive to come up with new treatments and improvements if they get guaranteed income.

    Basically it's the same as with public schools now. Compared to most private schools, they are horrible.

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by kail View Post
    Mandating who to do what? What does universal healthcare introduce that goes against free will and freedom?
    Mandating those who make money and actually contribute to society in increasingly meaningful and non-mundane ways take care of someone they don't know/can't judge for themselves/don't care about... like basically every form of social safety net. Stop making the able bodied carry the weak and the incapable more than they willingly want to.

    You want lower health care costs? Maybe we need more people willing and able to go into the industry so they have to compete more. As it is, we do not have enough medical staff to actually meet demands, let alone take care of everything if everyone were able to just go see the doctor whenever they wanted.
    Last edited by BeepBoo; 2021-01-05 at 09:19 AM.

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    More moronic ramblings of a libertarian nitwit.
    Riddle me this one first Mr Ayn Rand wannabe.

    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    It does. Living requires constant consumption of goods, which require work to produce.
    I would like to introduce you to industrialization, technology and automation. We aren't quite there yet, but we are well on our way to the point where production and manufacturing will require no meaningful human involvement of any kind.

    As far as mandating people to do things? Yes. Because free will and freedom are the literal most important virtues to me and a lot of americans.
    So let's clarify something here my dear libertarian edgelord.

    Do you believe the police and the court system should only serve those who are able to pay for their services out of pocket?

    If your answer is yes, that's not law enforcement, that's a protection racket.

    Do you believe the military should only defend those people or organizations that can pay for their defense out of pocket?
    Or can Canada or Russia just annex Alaska if Alaskans can't find the money to pay for their defense?

    If your answer is yes, that's not a defense policy, it's a protection racket run by warlords.

    You apply your own alleged values completely arbitrarily. It's so PROFUSELY idiotic that it won't stand up to even the most basic cursory examination. You don't understand what the social contract is, nor what it provides.

    If you actually believed in your own bullshit you'd fuck off and go live somewhere where your values are applicable...which is basically about 2 completely failed states somewhere in Africa and maybe Afghanistan. If you are unwilling to do that, than you are a hypocrite and a fucking moocher on the civilized society where you happen to find yourself and whose wellbeing you are actively sabotaging.

    Your values aren't American. Your values are dumb and un-American, because you refuse to take responsibility for yourself and for your place in society, you are the polar opposite of what you think you are.
    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Amarys View Post
    No, it's a really bad idea as are all mandatory/guaranteed income systems riddled with bureaucracy.

    The result would be long wait times, bad quality healthcare and you'd get refused experimental treatment or have to pay for for rare things anyway. Also it would really hurt progress don't really have a good incentive to come up with new treatments and improvements if they get guaranteed income.

    Basically it's the same as with public schools now. Compared to most private schools, they are horrible.
    Bullshit.

    The whole wait times and triage nonsense has been thoroughly debunked like a million times already.

    As the notion that it would somehow be more "bureaucratic" as it is universally acknowledged that removing the middle men of insurance companies massively streamlines the process.
    Quote Originally Posted by Orlong View Post
    It doesnt destroy the land to bury styrofoam 25 feet below the ground
    Today Obama once again kneeled at the altar of environmental naziism and hurt this once great country. He has now banned all drilling in the Atlantic Ocean

  12. #172
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amarys View Post
    No, it's a really bad idea as are all mandatory/guaranteed income systems riddled with bureaucracy.
    You have never dealt with insurance companies. You can’t say this, if you have.

    The result would be long wait times, bad quality healthcare and you'd get refused experimental treatment or have to pay for for rare things anyway. Also it would really hurt progress don't really have a good incentive to come up with new treatments and improvements if they get guaranteed income.
    Again, this is coming from a place of ignorance. I had to wait 3 month for a doctor, to just get a check up. My gf was denied experimental treatment, because the insurance company (not the doctor) refused to sign off on it, until she got on a drug that triggers MS in people with a family history of MS... which she has from her mother. Oh and this is after a couple of years of denying anything is wrong, because they needed an MRI to see the damage.

    The incentive angle is bullshit... How much was made or what corporation was running the discovery of penicillin? It is more profitable for these companies, to research pills that make your dick hard, than ones that would have lower demand... like rare illness...

    Basically it's the same as with public schools now. Compared to most private schools, they are horrible.
    Like private schools, only the wealthy should get treatment?
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    No amount of belief makes something a fact. - James Randi

  13. #173
    I just watched a Pence speech talking about they need the GA senators to "get in the way" to block the radical lefts healthcare movement lol. And people cheered for it.

    I can't describe my endless frustration at the shear stupidity of it all...

  14. #174
    I come from a working class family in the UK. One of my grandparents has had cancer 6 times, & is still alive today in his early 80s thanks to our healthcare system & his incredible willpower. If not for the NHS, I probably never would've remembered meeting him, never mind getting to know what an awesome guy he is.

    So yeah, of course I do.

  15. #175
    Yes, some services should not be profit-driven. For similar reasons that I don't want a privatized police or privatized road network.
    "In order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must be intolerant of intolerance." Paradox of tolerance

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by Dezerte View Post
    Yes, some services should not be profit-driven. For similar reasons that I don't want a privatized police or privatized road network.
    Things that absolutely should not be privatized by a country:

    -Education
    -Healthcare
    -Incarceration system


    Well look at us go!

  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    Riddle me this one first Mr Ayn Rand wannabe.
    This is why I acknowledge it's not possible to get rid of all gov't entirely, but minimizing it as much as possible is first order business.

    Bullshit.

    The whole wait times and triage nonsense has been thoroughly debunked like a million times already.
    Wait time is only part of the puzzle. The US is among the shortest wait times already as-is when you look at our average times. Take into account the fact that we have fewer doctors per capita than most of those countries and it looks even more impressive. In addition, you're ignoring probably the best part of our type of health care system: the ability to skip the line by throwing more money at the problem. You can't do that in other countries nearly as easily.

    Quote Originally Posted by Toybox View Post
    So yeah, of course I do.
    Lets look deeper and use our brains instead of our hearts: did your grandfather actually end up making enough money across his life to cover the additional life he got from those treatments? Let alone his own livelihood outside of those bills? Or did he push off his burden to the rest of healthy people who ended up not needing treatments of any major kind?
    Last edited by BeepBoo; 2021-01-05 at 03:47 PM.

  18. #178
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    Wait time is only part of the puzzle. The US is among the shortest wait times already as-is when you look at our average times. Take into account the fact that we have fewer doctors per capita than most of those countries and it looks even more impressive. In addition, you're ignoring probably the best part of our type of health care system: the ability to skip the line by throwing more money at the problem. You can't do that in other countries nearly as easily.
    If that’s even true, it’s because wait times don’t factor people who don’t have insurance, not getting care at all.
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    No amount of belief makes something a fact. - James Randi

  19. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    This is why I acknowledge it's not possible to get rid of all gov't entirely, but minimizing it as much as possible is first order business.



    Wait time is only part of the puzzle. The US is among the shortest wait times already as-is when you look at our average times. Take into account the fact that we have fewer doctors per capita than most of those countries and it looks even more impressive. In addition, you're ignoring probably the best part of our type of health care system: the ability to skip the line by throwing more money at the problem. You can't do that in other countries nearly as easily.
    I would not count that as impressive but rather barbaric.

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    I would not count that as impressive but rather barbaric.
    Which part? Getting more done with less resources?

    https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/...are-countries/

    or are you talking about skipping the line if you're actually more valuable to society? I fail to see why we shouldn't be prioritizing our higher achieving members over our lower ones that do nothing more than something a robot can feasibly do. Those aren't the people who actually solve problems. They're people that exist solely to support those who do, and that's only because it's currently easier/cheaper than having a robot. However, I've seen a lot of LCD order screens recently in an increasing number of places, so there's obviously a shift coming.

    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    If that’s even true, it’s because wait times don’t factor people who don’t have insurance, not getting care at all.
    I fail to see a problem here. So you're saying our wait times would be worse if our infrastructure was suddenly barraged with all of these supposed would-be visits and make our wait times horribly long? Or do you think going to universal health care will suddenly give us a lot more healthcare resources?

    https://worldpopulationreview.com/co...mes-by-country
    Last edited by BeepBoo; 2021-01-05 at 03:55 PM.

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