The Great Vault is rubbish.

[Doffen]

He's making an interesting point to be fair. Gear drops from raids & dungeons are very limited, & while PvP gear is relevant again, the amount of conquest gear you can get is totally hardcapped. We've gone from raids where you might expect 2-3 drops over the course of a night (with a bonus roll chance on top) to probably getting a single piece from 10 bosses.

The great vault as a standalone system is obviously a huge improvement, but if loot from every other PvE aspect of the game is noticeably worse, is it really better overall? All I can really compliment (and criticise) the vault for is that it keeps the item level disparity to a minimum between different tiers of raiders. So long as you're doing some M+, you're probably never going to be too far behind. As an example, my friend is 216 having done 15~ heroic bosses total & some M+ with guildies. I'm only a single item level higher having cleared heroic every week since week one & likely to kill a 5th mythic boss tomorrow.

You expected 2-3 drop per night? Some people got it I see

Yes, I think both TGV and gearing up is fantastic in Shadowlands, much better than both Legion and BfA counter parts, both alone and together.

[BananaHandsB]

Sorry that happened, I've found the vault to be incredibly rewarding.

Weapons, trinkets and ilvl upgrades.

This is the problem with the great vault. For most, it will seem entirely fine. But it's still entirely RNG. Which would be fine if they hadn't removed all forms of non-RNG loot from PVE. Badge gear is long gone. There's no master loot to help guilds fill in slots for unlucky players. You can't even bonus roll to help better your odds of a particular slot. For a person with average or good luck, this probably seems fine. But for the unlucky minority of outliers, that statistically will and do exist, pure RNG is a devastating system that seems to reward them far less than people doing the same (or even less) than they are to try and progress their character. RNG is fine when there is still at least some non-RNG ways to target loot over time, but blizzard has removed that entirely from the pve side of the game in favor of the loot casino approach. But hey, there's a reason ppl get hooked on gambling, and Blizzard knows they can profit off that, so I don't see anything getting changed.

[prolonged]

"LFR raiders"

If you only do LFR you are not a raider. Your a just trying to play the game as single player.

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I love the bad napkin math that some people try. It always amuses me.

If you complain about how people play the game and how they have "fun" with it, then you are part of wows problem. Point blank 100% truth. LFR is raid content is it not? it is. Therefore you are a raider, you sound stupid as hell.

[kamuimac]

Well more reliable gearing, offer a currency as a secondary option. I've farmed 2-3 vault items from M+ weekly so far, had a lot of duplicates (bracers/neck/rings) and while the 3rd duplicate ring was the lower ilvl option this week, the highest option was another ring and my ideal legendary slot is a ring.. A currency would have been great, to spend towards something at least remotely targeted.

And I also think M+ nevermind the vault the dungeon drops themselves are too low for the difficulty of the content. It's like a +14 up is mythic raider territory and the loot is like normal mode raiding, I think a M10-12 should be dropping 210 and a M+15 should be 213-216 ish. The vault'd be great if it had some protections in place, like not allowing 3 of the same slot or eliminating the item from the pool for a few weeks after it's chosen as an option.

Lets not forget the new Vault was meant to be bad luck protection but they bundled it with less loot from all other content, actively nerfing drops. They even nerfed timewalking drops because people were getting 2 items for a full clear.

they nerfed TW because they realised that people are making 200 itlv + groups and trading each other gear. my DH got 5 pieces - my hunter got 9 piece - how many +8 you would have to do to get 9 pieces that are clear upgrades ? probably 200+ .

they really dont want people to have fun while playing this game

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This is the problem with the great vault. For most, it will seem entirely fine. But it's still entirely RNG. Which would be fine if they hadn't removed all forms of non-RNG loot from PVE. Badge gear is long gone. There's no master loot to help guilds fill in slots for unlucky players. You can't even bonus roll to help better your odds of a particular slot. For a person with average or good luck, this probably seems fine. But for the unlucky minority of outliers, that statistically will and do exist, pure RNG is a devastating system that seems to reward them far less than people doing the same (or even less) than they are to try and progress their character. RNG is fine when there is still at least some non-RNG ways to target loot over time, but blizzard has removed that entirely from the pve side of the game in favor of the loot casino approach. But hey, there's a reason ppl get hooked on gambling, and Blizzard knows they can profit off that, so I don't see anything getting changed.

some people are for sure.

but majority of population doesnt like to gamble. what more i doubt that people who play mmorpg do because it has gamble elements.

i get it - people who play wow and only wow for past 16 years probably by now forgot how good mmorpgs handle gear progression .

if wow was real mmorpg we would have stuff like :

1)farmable elements to craft your very good quality gear from dungeons/raids - that each player could farm and then give to crafters to commision gear
2)professions making actualgood quality gear instead of garbage that they craft for yearsi n wow
3)gear upgrades - we would have enchants for every slot of gear we have - sometimes multiple enchants for each slot , jewelcrafterswould be able to make actual sockets and make profit on it , gems - do people even rememeebr we used to have 2-3 gem slots / different colours on multiple pieces of gear ? , tailoers/leatherwokers/blacksmits could possible craft +itlv upgrades for gear and make profit on this , scribes - dont make me start there - rmemebr when glyphs meant something in wow and were actual upgrades ? i member - member reforging ? sweet jebus how i miss reforging now especialy with loot so scarse

(look at conduits for example - so what if you have like 40 of them when you can only use 4-5 - most crap anyway - if wow was a real mmorpg you could have use like 20 different ones at the same time - making you more and more powerfull - but why deal with it when you can mean it basicly meaningless system - i wonder why they even bothered putting it into game its so bad)

wow is not longer mmorpg in my eyes - its arpg instance symulator that now have idiotic low drprates to force people to buy tokens frm blizzard for boes .

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I don't want this to come across as mean, but the reason it's not working for you, is because you play enough to get 6 choices across the board. You're playing too much, the vault is for casual players to kinda be able to keep up with you.

the problem is not him playing to much - the problem is him not getting rewarded for playing much - while random joe buys his +15 boost and get for example bis weapon

game should reward for playing a lot - not for buying boosts once a week

[Alanar]

Well tbh.. i had nothing good for 2 weeks straight so far, boy o boy this week had 4 capes 1 pants and 1 trinket. None of them I needed.

This is taking for ever..

[Alvito]

How it only seems to have necklaces is a mystery to me so far. At some point it really seems like some psycho GM is sitting there fucking with people when they get loot.

[Bigbazz]

The Vault is a stroke of genius.

Kind of wish the third raid drop would stay a 207 option, for a full NM clear, even after you convert to first to a HC drop though.

I wouldn't go that far, lets not forget people have been suggesting this exact solution for several expansions and it was a big talking point in Legion. It just took Blizzard several expansions to pretend it was their own idea, then figure out how to make it work while also getting you to play more. So instead of 3 options to protect you against awful luck you now do 10 dungeons instead of 1 dungeon to earn the 3 options to protect you against bad luck and then they counterbalance that by lowering loot drops across the board.

So you get less loot and you play more, even more reliant on the end of week RNG reward which can still screw you. I'm guessing items like bracers/rings have a higher chance to be in vault and weapons are lower chance, hence all the posts from people getting duplicate rings, cloaks and bracers weeks in a row.

[Doffen]

I I'm guessing items like bracers/rings have a higher chance to be in vault and weapons are lower chance, hence all the posts from people getting duplicate rings, cloaks and bracers weeks in a row.

There are more rings, cloaks and bracers individually than weapons for your spec, so yes, that is true, and all natural.

And, this is what the vocal minority do. They will come to forums and tell people about duplicate stuff and bad rng. Those who have normal rng what do they do? Stay quiet, and they are the big majority. What we see on forums can't in many cases, especially with something like this, show the whole picture.

Is there bad rng? Definitely! Is The Great Vault better than the old weekly chests? Definitely.

[Utrrabbit]

If you complain about how people play the game and how they have "fun" with it, then you are part of wows problem. Point blank 100% truth. LFR is raid content is it not? it is. Therefore you are a raider, you sound stupid as hell.

No you are not. You are a single player tourist. Nothing on lfr has anything to do with raiding. When 90% of thr group can be afk or dead on every boss on the pull. Lfr is the problem and catering to those people.

[Aliven]

No you are not. You are a single player tourist. Nothing on lfr has anything to do with raiding. When 90% of thr group can be afk or dead on every boss on the pull. Lfr is the problem and catering to those people.

So you are indeed stupid as hell.

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There are more rings, cloaks and bracers individually than weapons for your spec, so yes, that is true, and all natural.

And, this is what the vocal minority do. They will come to forums and tell people about duplicate stuff and bad rng. Those who have normal rng what do they do? Stay quiet, and they are the big majority. What we see on forums can't in many cases, especially with something like this, show the whole picture.

Is there bad rng? Definitely! Is The Great Vault better than the old weekly chests? Definitely.

In a void, yes. Sadly, introduction of vault also castrated the loot drops across the board so, in game, it is worse.

[Gorsameth]

So you are indeed stupid as hell.

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In a void, yes. Sadly, introduction of vault also castrated the loot drops across the board so, in game, it is worse.

That wasn't because of vault but because of Titanforging.

In BfA a lot of gear dropped because most of it was worthless without TF procs.
Without TF, the amount of loot drops are down, because otherwise your in BiS after a month.

[Toybox]

You expected 2-3 drop per night? Some people got it I see

Yes, I think both TGV and gearing up is fantastic in Shadowlands, much better than both Legion and BfA counter parts, both alone and together.

I mean I raided the most throughout Legion, & we'd be looking at 5 drops per boss + the chances of bonus rolls in Mythic. In a 10 boss raid that'd equate to 50~ pieces of loot + 2-3 bonus rolls per character in Mythic. Let's say half the raid managed to bonus roll something (10 items in 40-60 rolls seems more than reasonable). That brings the total to 60 pieces of loot split between 20 people, making 2-3/4 pieces of loot spot on, with an average of 3 pieces per person, per clear. A full clear of Nathria is 45 pieces, with no chance of bonus rolling anything extra, which is substantially less than previous expansions.

I know it's being sold as a "it makes drops more meaningful" feature, and to some extent it obviously does, but I truly believe the design philosophy behind it was to gate raiders & keep a huge chunk of player progress locked behind the weekly vault so that the guy running a few M+ each week never falls too far behind the guy clearing heroic and/or progressing mythic.

I'm not saying the GV is rubbish, though. I'm just saying I believe its design intent to be a bit more grey than the "OMG ITS AWESOME LOOK AT THE OPTIONS!!!!!" that some people think. I'll undoubtedly like it more when I'm not one of the minority in the guild who doesn't have a Mythic iLvl weapon already, as Blizzard being the geniuses that they are thought it fun to put the Warrior token 7 bosses in while other guys get it from the first week bosses

[Aliven]

That wasn't because of vault but because of Titanforging.

In BfA a lot of gear dropped because most of it was worthless without TF procs.
Without TF, the amount of loot drops are down, because otherwise your in BiS after a month.

TF was never a problem to begin.

[Gorsameth]

TF was never a problem to begin.

That is an opinion your allowed to have.
Myself and many others disagree and seemingly the WoW developers do aswell, because its gone now.

[Doffen]

TF was never a problem to begin.

Like he said, loot is different now because warforging/titanforging is gone. TGV probably got very little to do with it. They had to change how loot works if it was going to be more deterministic.

And I approve.

[Aliven]

Like he said, loot is different now because warforging/titanforging is gone. TGV probably got very little to do with it. They had to change how loot works if it was going to be more deterministic.

And I approve.

Why not having tf/wf should change loot drops?

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That is an opinion your allowed to have.
Myself and many others disagree and seemingly the WoW developers do aswell, because its gone now.

We dont know if it was a problem in the eyes of the devs. If only they removed tf/wf they maybe, but they also lowered drop rates across the board, and introduced great vault. The removal of tf/wf did not happen in void.

[Noctiphobia]

So far I've had

Thunderous Echo Vambraces x2 (highest ilvl one week)
Azure Venom Choker x2 (+1 on alt)
Ring of Perpetual Conflict x3 (and highest ilvl option for 2 of those weeks)

This week was the latter ring + another Verse/Mas ring that wasn't an upgrade. The only way I could have avoided this mess is having grinded out 10 high keys, which is not really a possibility on my time frame, while pugging as a dps Warrior. The only non ring/neck/bracer loot option i've had was legs one week, but the lowest ilvl option and the first week the ring showed up.

You got people getting weapons and trinkets and all these fat upgrades and I get the same loot every week. I wish they would just remove the vault and end of week cache from the game and give you a currency you earn and spend, this will actually make me unsub because I do not have the time to invest maxing out all content so I don't get fucked over.

Why are you surprised that you don't get that much gear if you don't do content? If you do only one of 3 possible paths, and don't even max that one out, it's expected that it will take you longer to gear up.

[Lolites]

In a void, yes. Sadly, introduction of vault also castrated the loot drops across the board so, in game, it is worse.

eh.... what?
blizzard reducing drop chances was bcs of titanforging removal, it wasnt not good drop chances OR vault, loot chance wouldnt be higher if the chest remained as it was in BFA...

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TF was never a problem to begin.

sure it was, getting item of mythic raid quality from world q is a HUGE problem...
if they capped the titanforge (so normal raid loot can only titanforge to hc raid quality and so on) it would be fine, but as it was it was rly stupid...

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Why not having tf/wf should change loot drops?

with titanforging you could keep going even though you get the loot as there was a chance for upgrade
without it you would get decked in full bis gear in a week and had nothing to do for the rest of patch if they didnt reduce the loot...

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We dont know if it was a problem in the eyes of the devs.

we do, they explained it at least hundred times in ddifferent interviews, you just obviously didnt pay attention...

[Aliven]

eh.... what?
blizzard reducing drop chances was bcs of titanforging removal, it wasnt not good drop chances OR vault, loot chance wouldnt be higher if the chest remained as it was in BFA...

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sure it was, getting item of mythic raid quality from world q is a HUGE problem...
if they capped the titanforge (so normal raid loot can only titanforge to hc raid quality and so on) it would be fine, but as it was it was rly stupid...

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with titanforging you could keep going even though you get the loot as there was a chance for upgrade
without it you would get decked in full bis gear in a week and had nothing to do for the rest of patch if they didnt reduce the loot...

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we do, they explained it at least hundred times in ddifferent interviews, you just obviously didnt pay attention...

so you only have hyperboles and not a coherent argument? gotcha.

[Doffen]

Why not having tf/wf should change loot drops?

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We dont know if it was a problem in the eyes of the devs. If only they removed tf/wf they maybe, but they also lowered drop rates across the board, and introduced great vault. The removal of tf/wf did not happen in void.

Me and two others explained it to you, and the reason for gear showering the last expansion was because of WF/TF making it so that you never stopped upgrading. Removing those while having the same amount of loot would have made it so that we would be done with gearing in this first season already.

Ion has been on this topic several times. He has been defending TF with gear showering, while also acknowledge the issues. And they have talked about the new gearing system too. Its pretty clear that removal of TF is the reason why loot is more scarce now.

Which I agree with wholeheartedly.