Page 11 of 13 FirstFirst ...
9
10
11
12
13
LastLast
  1. #201
    Scarab Lord Oneirophobia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Northern Ontario, CAN
    Posts
    4,801
    My main issue with him is that he appears to have been tragically born without a personality. This can work, but mostly for weirdo octopus monsters like the Old Gods where we're not really supposed to understand or identify with them as they're supposed to be a weird horror.

    The jailer, on the other hand, is a humanoid and part of a pantheon of other similar characters who all have personalities. It's also annoying we keep hearing about how he "convinced" characters like Sylvanas and Devos to join his cause, but he hasn't at any point done the same with us. He really hasn't explained anything. Everything I know about him has been from what other characters have told me, he hasn't shown us who he is at all. For all intensive porpoises the story would be more or less the same if we hadn't even seen him or knew of his existence yet.

    When you first see him in the Maw and he crushes Anduin's bubble as you escape was about the ONLY time the jailer actually seemed like a character and less like a fixture. I figured he'd continue to have some more scenes like that but so far he hasn't done much of anything or been seen around.

    I suppose now that Denarthrius is behind us we'll see more of the jailer's actual ..character.

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by Yooginava182 View Post
    If you watched the newer cinematic with him and sylvannas, even what we did to Denathrius was all according to his plan. If he truly has been pulling all the strings since before wc3 then yea he would be chilled back. "pff look at my plan literally falling into place". We aren't even fully through the first patch of the game, and haven't personally delved into the jailers story yet.

    wait till after the expansion is done to judge if he was a good villain or not.
    I personally got the sense that what we did to Denathrius was inconsequential since the part of his plan that hinged on Denathrius had been resolved. Zovaal didn't need Denathrius anymore, so he doesn't care that he was beaten. I don't think we were planned to stop Denathrius--Zovaal seemed dismissive about the news rather than pleased by it--but I could be wrong!

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by ashblond View Post
    Jailer is THE most retarded looking NPC in wow history.

    And, what is Blizzard's obsession with man nipples??? Jailer is not even human ffs.

    Blizzard can't come with a more original and better model? LOL
    Humans are not the only one with nipples most mammals have nipples. He could be mammal.

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    And the "how many characters have we known that have gone to the SL" is nothing but a very convenient excuse to not do the legwork involved in building a proper character, villain or otherwise.
    Especially when this, in itself, is a giant plot hole re: The Forsaken.

    How is it that the undead don't remember the Shadowlands? Nothing has confirmed or denied why that is the case. We in fact DO have plenty of people who should be able to remember their time post-death.
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    I'm sorry sir, but we do not serve complimentary cheese when you bring your own whine.

  5. #205
    The only excuse for scenario writers would be some kind of deeper game. Like he does not want to kill us, but rather allows us to escape him. And even provides us with his servant Venari who helps us. So our hero is supposed to be a real weapon, he's honing us to claim us later.

    But of course that would be too much for 12+ game.

  6. #206
    Banned FelPlague's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Ontario,Canada
    Posts
    22,453
    Quote Originally Posted by Season2mask View Post
    I put it to you that the Jailer is a completely ineffective villain. I really don't care about him because I don't find him threatening at all. He just seems like a generic, pantomime villain that I had never heard of before he was thrust at us. Who is he? Why should I care? Even now, several weeks into Shadowlands, we have no real backstory for him.

    He just seems incompetenent because the first time we see him he's just monologuing generic lines while we escape his apparently inescapable Maw. Lorewise and gameplay wise we make a mockery of this mysterious villain walking in and out of his domain at will. What were Blizzard thinking?



    ILLIDAN/KJ ->THE LICH KING -> Deathwing -> Garrosh -> Grommash-Archimonde (meh) -> Argus (meh, I guess) -> N'ZOTH

    ...The Jailer?
    "We are 7 weeks into the expansion and he hasent finished his universe ending plan!"
    yeah no of course not, his plan will happen over patches, the lich king didnt show up and tell us his plan right away, all we knew is he existed and he was bad, but as time passed we learned more, but even until we get to his fight in the final raid we dont know what he is planning, we just know "he is planning something bad" we dont know till we literally kill him in the raid what his plan actually is.

    literally we didnt know the lich kings plan till we killed him

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ashblond View Post
    Jailer is THE most retarded looking NPC in wow history.

    And, what is Blizzard's obsession with man nipples??? Jailer is not even human ffs.

    Blizzard can't come with a more original and better model? LOL
    "What is blizzards obsession with man nipples"
    w..what?
    Men have nipples, how is giving men niples an obsession?
    next your gunna say "WHAT IS BLIZZARDS OBSESSIONS WITH HEADS, ALL MODELS HAVE A HEAD WTF BLIZZ!?"

    Also yeah.. hes not a human... cause you know all mammels have nipples right? (Well most) so just because hes not human does not mean he would not have nipples.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mamut View Post
    But he made quite good point. So far SL is lacking his presence. I hope with future patches he will get more focus because so far he does not look that interesting like I was thinking before release with all this hype about Jailer.
    Yes, kelthuzad showed up everywhere in vanilla, we couldnt escape him until we met once again in naxxramas and... oh
    Yes cause we all remember illidan being literaly everywhere while doing the first patch of TBC... oh wait...
    YEs we all remember the lich king being everywhere aswell! oh wait like... 5 quests? ok then
    Yes of course we all remember deathwing being everywhere! Ok he showed up a bit more then the lichking so...
    Again while doing mists of pandaria first patch we all knew and eh i think you get the point... people glorify people like the lich king, but even he wasnt as active as people pretend he was, especially since we literally didnt know what his plan was till we killed him in the raid...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmist View Post
    "Nobody escapes The Maw!"

    Motherfucker, there's a doorway right there. What did you think it was for?
    he knows people escape, when we arrive he has already caught many maw walkers before us and experimented on them.
    hes just saying it as a scare tactic, same way you say "Your end is now!" of course you could survive, but hes just trying to you know... be scary, make you doubt yourself.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by naeblis495 View Post
    Big J : "Nothing Escape The Maw !"

    Millions of players :*come and go as they please and destroy anything in sight inside the maw for months* LMAO.


    That single line already make him lose any and all credibility instantly

    And the dude isn't even capable of killing baine . BAINE !
    He wasnt trying to kill baine he was trying to torture him.
    also yeah? every villian ever says something like "You will die here" all villians in wow have lost all credibility instantly cause of that.
    hell atleast the jailor knew he was lying, he knows things can escape the maw, but he is simply trying to scare us into submission.

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by slime View Post
    It seems to me everything that's happening is because he wants it that way, right down to us escaping the inescapable Maw.
    Pretty much. He probably killed a large number of Azeroth's defenders during his invasion, sending them to the Maw. When we invaded him he almost wiped out the death knight force that came with us, and captured everybody but us who escaped via dues ex machina. Sire has given him almost all the anima in the Shadowlands, all the zones are in ruins from the drought and his own loyalists. And the faction leader he really wanted to keep is still his.
    The most difficult thing for people to do is objectively look at something they don't like and be able to accept that it is not bad, that other people like it, and if it was changed to the way they'd like it that other people would not like it and want it changed back. The second most is to receive something they didn't want or ask for and be grateful for it, not immediately demand what they wanted instead.

  8. #208
    Stood in the Fire RCA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Location
    NJ US
    Posts
    437
    Going through the expo like a snail, so I got some more info coming my way but I really thought Baine was getting axed there in the beginning for being unworthy. That alone would of stopped this thread from being made.

  9. #209
    Immortal Soon-TM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Netherstorm
    Posts
    7,345
    Quote Originally Posted by RCA View Post
    Going through the expo like a snail, so I got some more info coming my way but I really thought Baine was getting axed there in the beginning for being unworthy. That alone would of stopped this thread from being made.
    That would have really endeared Blue Squid boi in my eyes
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The Jailer's first ever appearance involved chucking him [Baine] off a cliff for being too shit to even qualify as a Maw trash mob.

  10. #210
    Scarab Lord Gamevizier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Phoenix, US
    Posts
    4,692
    Quote Originally Posted by slime View Post
    It seems to me everything that's happening is because he wants it that way, right down to us escaping the inescapable Maw.
    the problem with Jailer is the same as with all the other villains in WoW, save for maybe the burning legion during the legion campaign. You don't really feel like you're on the retreat in Shadowlands, even though we did fail initially to stop Denathrius, We are shown to be turning the tide on the Jailer with no real setbacks save for Ravendreth. Granted, this is not even the first patch, but something seriously bad needs to happen for the players to really feel that sense of desperation as if we are actually fighting something powerful and unstoppable. For instance, we need to be more on the defensive, in Legion we were constantly under attack from all sides in the campaign and all of Azeroth seemed to be under attack from the burning legion. Right now it's just the dailies in the maw and in different zones.

    Maybe an attack on Oribos with the Arbiter as the casualty? A fight between the winter queen, The firstborn, and the Jailer? perhaps even a defeat dealt to our side by the Jailer ? I would pretty much like to have a raid in which we are shown to be LOSING and we are on retreat/damage control. we are one step behind the Jailer and in the end we have to clean up the mess he leaves in his wake. The raid can still function and work as a normal raid, it's just the theme/story of the raid that changes to reflect this.

    We keep hearing that Anduin is the weapon the Jailer seeks, yet we are not shown as to why, in fact we are not seeing anything about Jailer's plans. We are just told that something powerful is in Jailer's possession, or that Jailor has some uber ulterior motive. after a bit, this narration will lead us to have great expectations from Jailer, and if he fails to deliver, well that would be just awful now would it?

    We are also not provided with any good counter-points or thoughts to understand the villain of the story. WHY are we fighting this Jailer again? what is his goal? what is he after? or rather, WHY is he after it? A good villain has to present a point of view that makes sense to the player, we don't have to accept his idea, but just having a villain with an idea or a reason behind his seemingly villainous motives helps flesh out a villain that players can like. we are just expected to wait until it is revealed in later patches so that Jailer can become an interesting character. that might not even happen because Blizzard hasn't promised anything about Jailer's character development.
    Last edited by Gamevizier; 2021-01-11 at 04:02 AM.

  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    But - Again - We don't even have that. There is absolutely no motivation known for why the Jailer wants to escape the Maw. It might be to "rule all" but we don't know that. It might be to get back at those who jailed him, but we don't know that. It might be just to cause general death-related chaos, but we don't know that.

    And because the Jailer doesn't tell anything about his motivations to anyone, even his most trusted confidants, we can't say for certain that any of what we know would apply to his motivation. It may very well be that all we know about the Jailer is meant to divert us from the true goal.

    And this is why this kind of storytelling is shitty. This kind of "you never saw it coming" bullshit has people jump at shadows, only to make the "big reveal" something that LITERALLY nobody could see coming, because it wasn't foretold whatsoever.
    I don't disagree entirely, but I think I'm more at the level that I don't think an antagonist such as the Jailer *needs* a motivation, as in, it's not necessary for the type of character he is.

    Motivation is more than just "So here's the reason why X does Y", it's also about how we empathize with thatm and how that builds a character. So what I am saying that to a point, when a villain ahs a completely utilitarian purpose, or are just "evil for the sake of it", motivation is irrelevant, because the depth of the jailor as a character is not the focus.

    So whether we have an specific motivation like Sargeras did, or we have a more nebulous "oh he is trapped and wants to rule the universe", it's kinda the same. The specificity of the jailers motivation is kinda irrelevant to his purpose on the story. It's less about "oh it will be a twist!!" and more of an even if it is a twist what his endgame is, his motivation doesn't matter, because the why will most likely serve as a plot device, just like he does.

    Like, "actual" motivation matters when the depth of a character is the focus, like it was with Arthas.

    So yeah, IMO the jailer is more of a plot device and his motivations really don't matter, much like Sargeras didn't; at the end Sargeras motivation only purpose was to further the peril of the Void Lords as a threat, it was just lore, not character motivation on a narrative-depth sense.

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    He wasnt trying to kill baine he was trying to torture him.
    also yeah? every villian ever says something like "You will die here" all villians in wow have lost all credibility instantly cause of that.
    hell atleast the jailor knew he was lying, he knows things can escape the maw, but he is simply trying to scare us into submission.
    Dropping him off a cliff was supposed to torture him ?When he have a whole infinite tower of torture at his disposal ? Sure buddy .

    "You will die here" is actually pretty damn accurate given the ammount of wipes we need to beat them . Just because we can revive ourself at will , doesn't mean that we don't die.

    The jailer was lying ? Lmao , no . He was serious because his weak ass can't escape and he think if he can't , then nobody can .

  13. #213
    Banned FelPlague's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Ontario,Canada
    Posts
    22,453
    Quote Originally Posted by naeblis495 View Post
    Dropping him off a cliff was supposed to torture him ?When he have a whole infinite tower of torture at his disposal ? Sure buddy .

    "You will die here" is actually pretty damn accurate given the ammount of wipes we need to beat them . Just because we can revive ourself at will , doesn't mean that we don't die.

    The jailer was lying ? Lmao , no . He was serious because his weak ass can't escape and he think if he can't , then nobody can .
    1. i think you fail to realize they did that escape countless times, so he "dropped him off that cliff" countless times, but that ONE time we show up and we are able to escape, but they are all yet again trapped.

    2. yes, it does mean that we dont die, as there is only a couple times we actually die in the lore, us wiping to the lich king hundreds of times is not real, we died to him once, no more, no less.


    3. Yes, he was lying, cause before us he has captured many maw walkers and experimented on them. learn the lore.

  14. #214
    Blizzard as always shits on their entire story telling with the "YOU ARE THE CHAMPION, OH SO UNIQUE AND GIFTED" vomit diarrhea.
    I shat my pants out of sheer frustration when i first approached that ancient maw pillar and out of all the legendary heroes there the pillar reacts to US the player...
    Come on suck our spaghetti even more blizzard, the cheapest story telling that is below even the 12y olds the game is rated for.

    "No one escapes the maw" but we do it in the first 30 minutes of being there... we are able to do it at will, literally spamming it back and forth whenever we feel like it.
    Also whats the point of the jailer "always seeing everything" in the maw if he never does nothing to actually stop us and a single whatever race that trader is can hide us from his sight...

    That whole "time flows differently in this realm so we have been here already forever" is boring tired tripe and just causes more confusion because blizzard does not have consistent or good enough writing to actually make a "time manipulation" story cohesive.

    Actually the expansion line should have been "No one mounts in the maw" because that is actually true AND is a god damn threat to player sanity.
    So far the jailer seems to be there just to give sylvanas someone "more evil" so she can be redeemed and look less evil.
    Someone said jailer is basically the snoke from SWars and god damn its literally snoke, utterly useless and underdeveloped villain.

    The one character story from the maw i am actually interested in seeing is the legendary crafter, despite it probably just being the primus of maldraxxus.
    But the whole sylvanas and jailer duo is the most boring uninspiring WOW villain team i have ever seen.
    Mr. zovaal is so generic and bland that i expected blizzard to actually kill him in the first or second raid and then the REAL boss comes out - someone with actual story writing behind them.
    Last edited by Aleksej89; 2021-01-11 at 09:33 PM.

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    So yeah, IMO the jailer is more of a plot device and his motivations really don't matter, much like Sargeras didn't; at the end Sargeras motivation only purpose was to further the peril of the Void Lords as a threat, it was just lore, not character motivation on a narrative-depth sense.
    But Sargeras' motivations originally weren't that. It was actually a massive disappointment that Sargeras' great plot and culmination of his actual appearance on Azeroth, served only to further the Void Lord plot.

    The great lord, the being in the shadows, the perpetrator of every event known in WoW since the original Warcraft - Was not only just a puppet to be tossed away for the Void Lord plot in the end, but was now so easy to manipulate that even a man trapped in an inescapable realm, with no insight into the world outside, was able to flawlessly predict his every move up to and including torturing a titan soul he didn't know existed, so much until it would shut down the Arbiter in a way he didn't have any way to know would work.

    Yeah. That's "mysterious" alright. Mysteriously specific to making the Jailer stronger than Sargeras, for seemingly no reason than to shit on Sargeras. "Look how much more bad this enemy is than the last one!" just doesn't work when the enemy has nothing to them.
    Last edited by Fleugen; 2021-01-12 at 12:59 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    I'm sorry sir, but we do not serve complimentary cheese when you bring your own whine.

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by Yooginava182 View Post
    If you watched the newer cinematic with him and sylvannas, even what we did to Denathrius was all according to his plan. If he truly has been pulling all the strings since before wc3 then yea he would be chilled back. "pff look at my plan literally falling into place". We aren't even fully through the first patch of the game, and haven't personally delved into the jailers story yet.

    wait till after the expansion is done to judge if he was a good villain or not.
    That's the laziest way to write a story imo. We very well know that whatever happens in 9.x will be "according to Jailer's plan". Even if the Maw Walker sticks his finger into Jailer's left eye and the Jailer dies from enucleation, 10.x will all be about "that was also part of his plan".

    And that's boring. That can be a twist that work once, but every time ? Come on. Us reaching Lich King was "part of the plan", us bringing the Heart to Azshara was "part of the plan", us drinking coffee at breakfast is "part of the plan".

    When Jailer will be defeated, a new cosmic entity "older than Jailer and more powerful than him!!!" will be declared pulling the strings since the dawn of creation, and Jailer's death by us was "part of the plan". And when we'll defeat this new cosmic entity ? Guess what ? Yep.

    How can such a storyline satisfy anyone ?

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophenia View Post
    That's the laziest way to write a story imo. We very well know that whatever happens in 9.x will be "according to Jailer's plan". Even if the Maw Walker sticks his finger into Jailer's left eye and the Jailer dies from enucleation, 10.x will all be about "that was also part of his plan".

    And that's boring. That can be a twist that work once, but every time ? Come on. Us reaching Lich King was "part of the plan", us bringing the Heart to Azshara was "part of the plan", us drinking coffee at breakfast is "part of the plan".

    When Jailer will be defeated, a new cosmic entity "older than Jailer and more powerful than him!!!" will be declared pulling the strings since the dawn of creation, and Jailer's death by us was "part of the plan". And when we'll defeat this new cosmic entity ? Guess what ? Yep.

    How can such a storyline satisfy anyone ?
    now i imagine a comic strip a la dark legacy comics where the jailer is in the background somewhere in all of the situations you mentioned.
    The above mentioned remarks, ideas and notions are simply my thought on this topic. I do not wish to aggravate, denounce or criticize anyone who, for whatever reason, may disagree.

  18. #218
    I got a feeling you don't know much about the wow lore in general and or have no clue about power of villians. I don't know in what world you think Illidan is a dangerous threat with a epic back story he is a power horny elf and you put N'zoth last? N'zoth held his own ground while fighting 2 of the other old gods at the same time. Archimonde lore wise is a more dangerous threat when he shows up on your door step then his brother KJ ever was and the lore of the 2 is very close to the same.

  19. #219
    Blizzard is better at foreshadowing and leaving us speculating about things, than presenting the actual story.

    Its been like that for years. something new happens that leaves us with more questions than answers and often enough we theorycraft so much around it and create these awesome ideas on whats going to happen.

    Then the story finally unfolds and we are often enough let down by Blizzard WHILE we start speculating on new stuff.

    Blizzard story is at its best when we know next to nothing, given only breadcrumbs for us to find and speculate on.

    For the Jailer though.. He will probably be a letdown as a major villain, cause theres no build up to him and we knew nothing about him before going into SL.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Alatie View Post
    I got a feeling you don't know much about the wow lore in general and or have no clue about power of villians. I don't know in what world you think Illidan is a dangerous threat with a epic back story he is a power horny elf and you put N'zoth last? N'zoth held his own ground while fighting 2 of the other old gods at the same time. Archimonde lore wise is a more dangerous threat when he shows up on your door step then his brother KJ ever was and the lore of the 2 is very close to the same.
    They all have in common that they are known villains with long buildup before we faced them. The jailer? nothing. Atleast in game

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by mysticx View Post
    The problem is that right now we're supposed to be terribly impressed
    I don't think we are. I think we're supposed to know that he's so powerful that he thinks of us as trivial irritants and that he's found a weapon to replace Arthas and Bolvar in Anduin. I think the current goal is more "Hey, this dude is amassing some serious firepower, and that's gonna be a problem shortly down the road, but what is it and why?"

    I've a feeling that ultimately this whole thing is either a bit TOO esoteric, or it's a bit too mundane.

    I think on the "that seems to simple" thread - it's probably a love/revenge story - Zovaal was the original Arbiter, something happened and he fell in love with Elune, which "clouded" his judgement - the Winter Queen condemned him for loving her terrible sister, and Kyresta for failing to be impartial. They banished him, and they exiled Elune from the Shadowlands. Or perhaps - Elune died in the Shadowlands and her essence coalesced in the prime plane - he is searching for a sepulcher after all. It would explain this whole "breaking the machinery of death" thing they've got going on - if Elune cannot stay on the Shadowlands, and Zovaal can't find himself getting to the prime plane, how about smashing the walls and blurring the lines?

    It seems to line up with the things they've set up, and why there's been a lot more focus on Elune over Legion and BFA than the entirety of WoW prior. But it also has a bunch of plotholes?

    Maybe he's just a creeper who saw a pretty moon lady and when he was like "Hey, I want to go say hi to the cute moon" everyone else was like "dude, you're arbiting billions of souls a minute, you don't have time" and he was like "wellll, fuck that. I'm gonna build myself an arbiter to do it!" and ran off and said hi to the cute moon and she was like "Bruh, not interested" and now he's nice guying his way to her.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •