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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalrend View Post
    Druids and hunter can soothe, mages can spell steal, all of these classes including warlock has a cc spell. You can argue a druid have much more utility than a lock because thats the reality with treants, with aoe beam silence and with ursol and typhoon if they spec in to it. Mages don't even bring remotely close utility compared to a boomkin. If you think there is the world of difference between mages and warlocks on a fucking +15 key of all the things, I don't know what to tell you. Most group comps try to get a mm hunter AND a mage anyway so BUT MUH LUST argument is not very valid unless the brainlet hunter doesnt want to summon/dismiss a pet.

    +15 is not very hard content, not with 215 gear level range, definately not this week. Nobody is here is crying that OMG THEY ARE NOT TAKING ME FOR +19 KEYS WTF. Because that is the cutting edge content atm, not 15s. This same argument people like you make in their 2/10 m guilds and say that you will not take a off meta spec regardless how good the player is. Most morons rather a %70 parse affli warlock over a %99 destro. When you are not doing cutting edge content, the whole argument of min maxing to the roof argument becomes asinine.
    Quote your own post then call other people morons.

    Bravo.

  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by ZazuuPriest View Post
    weird that you make the exact argument to bring a mage over warlock while trying to throw your facts in my face. mages also have excellent kiting ability over locks, more consistent damage with less ramp time than destro, better execute, are more mobile, better defensives. thats just mages, we can get into why hunters, priests and boomies are better if you want to embarrass youself further.
    Your argument was stuns, interrupts and knockbacks/pushbacks were king. What i said that warlock have the same interrupt cd as a mage/hunter and a aoe stun, which by your words is king. Warlock bring a b rez, mages bring a bloodlust. You only need 1 guy to give bloodlust, more sources of cr is always better assuming the guy who is doing the cr also bloody die. It takes a rather special individual to die in a bloodlust pull, before he can give bloodlust, which is the extent of planning and cordination is a +15 run in a pug. Most pugs have a fetish for resto shaman, MM hunters also, so the bloodlust utility is not that unique considering other classes who also provides the same utility will be in the group most of the time.

    Then you bolded the part where i said mages had bloodlust, and didn't give two shits about rest of it. A good warlock is not only "COOKIES KEKW".
    Last edited by Thalrend; 2021-01-10 at 01:29 AM.

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalrend View Post
    Your argument was stuns, interrupts and knockbacks/pushbacks were king. What i said that warlock have the same interrupt cd as a mage and a aoe stun, which by your words is king. Warlock bring a b rez, mages bring a bloodlust.
    Mages have an AoE disorient, which is considerably more powerful because it's a) instant cast; and b) is on a different DR so it doesn't interfere with other stuns. I believe it's also on a shorter CD. More importantly, though, Mage can bring absurd AoE damage, which is often more relevant than the priority/boss damage brought by a warlock. Mage also brings the Int buff, which is actual throughput for the group (as opposed to Healthstone, which is defensive).

    Quote Originally Posted by Thalrend View Post
    A good warlock is not only "COOKIES KEKW".
    No, but they're also not enough to put them ahead over Mage or Boomkin if you add together both the damage and utility. They're probably 3rd in line for casters, but that doesn't really help because there's really only 2 slots max for casters in high M+ as things stand right now.

    That's the meta, anyway. No one is saying you can't do 15s with a Warlock - you absolutely can. You can do 20s, too. But why WOULD you, when you could have Mage or Boomkin instead and get more out of the deal? As long as there's all the world to choose from among DPS applicants, that's just going to be reality.

  4. #164
    The Patient Wulfstan's Avatar
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    I tried for a hour to get a +2 on my 190 ilevel ret paladin with no luck. I gave up and played something else. Idk whats going on with the community honestly
    The reason they call it the American Dream is because you have to be asleep to believe it.- George Carlin

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    Mages have an AoE disorient, which is considerably more powerful because it's a) instant cast; and b) is on a different DR so it doesn't interfere with other stuns. I believe it's also on a shorter CD. More importantly, though, Mage can bring absurd AoE damage, which is often more relevant than the priority/boss damage brought by a warlock. Mage also brings the Int buff, which is actual throughput for the group (as opposed to Healthstone, which is defensive).


    No, but they're also not enough to put them ahead over Mage or Boomkin if you add together both the damage and utility. They're probably 3rd in line for casters, but that doesn't really help because there's really only 2 slots max for casters in high M+ as things stand right now.

    That's the meta, anyway. No one is saying you can't do 15s with a Warlock - you absolutely can. You can do 20s, too. But why WOULD you, when you could have Mage or Boomkin instead and get more out of the deal? As long as there's all the world to choose from among DPS applicants, that's just going to be reality.
    You see, I never said those two classes doesn't bring more to the table then a warlock. My point was, and still is, most people in this thread says warlock have zero interrupts, just bring stones etc. That is plain and simple not true. Will i say a same skill/gear level boomkin will be better than the warlock? Yes. Does it fucking matter in a +15 pug if people do their job and keep it simple. Fucking no. Most keys that got depleted this week due to "its ez week lets do big pulls" type of fails where the sanguine become a utter shitshow in the end or tank died because of different reasons. Most of that shit can be easly prevented by not going ape shit on pulls, considering most of the dungeons are rather lenient with this weeks affixes if you dont spend an eternity dealing with sanguine healed mobs.

    Its not that people rather wants to have a mage/boomkin. Its that people ONLY wants those and rest of them go fuck themselves with a t-shaped cactus. Its irrevelant that you have more than enough rio/gear/logs or whatever standart you are going fo, since if you are over qualified apperently people don't want you because you will leave if you don't time the key. Or at least thats what people might think, which is another can of worms that how the community play mind games over a fucking video game.

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalrend View Post
    Asking for 1.4 k rio for a 15 key for example is asking for a carry
    1.4k rio is what you'd have if you've timed every 15 and maybe 1 16. So it's not really asking for a carry at all to ask for that score for that level. You're just asking for someone who has already succeeded at that level.

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by ydraw View Post
    1.4k rio is what you'd have if you've timed every 15 and maybe 1 16. So it's not really asking for a carry at all to ask for that score for that level. You're just asking for someone who has already succeeded at that level.
    My rio is 1328, at the moment, which is with all +15 dungeons timed with 2 +16s timed. 1.4k rio is +16 timed on all dungeon BUT 1. And if you are 1 k rio and asking for 1.4k as my example , yes you are asking your ass to be boosted.

    If you only did +14s and some +15s, which is a realistic but in my opinion still a high ask because i rather take a dude did 4 +14s on the dungeon i am running than seperate dungeons, your rio will be hanging around 1.2 k and that is with all 14s and 3-4 15s. So no, 1.4 k is asking for a boost through and through. Why should he come to clear a dungeon that he gots his rio if he is running for rio? 1.4 k example was also a mild example since I also see 1450+ 1.5 k plus in the group finder also for a fucking +15. Some of them from dudes that want to push their keys to +17 and has similar rio for push runs, which i can respect at least. But some of them are just shitters asking for a boost in a rather unelegant way, at least in my opinion.

    If you ask for a rio that you are not even close by 300+ score, that is just filling your group with better people than you so you can succeed, which is boosting. But you can have your own opinions on that.
    Last edited by Thalrend; 2021-01-10 at 02:00 AM.

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalrend View Post

    I did, I did took the mount now, problem is and the point of the thread is, thats the only way I can realistically enter the groups at or even below my push level at the very moment. Its like saying to a guy mugged in streets "bro, just don't go outside.".
    This is really not a problem unique to warlocks and you knew that when you chose to roll a pure DPS class.

    People playing at a level high enough to have KSM already aren't a bunch of metaslave morons as you seem to think they are. They are mostly very good players. But there will always be an oversupply of DPS so the answer is as always, find a guild, friends or run your own key rather than complain that someone didn't pick you out of the 50 applicants they got for their key.,

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thalrend View Post
    And if you are 1 k rio and asking for 1.4k as my example , yes you are asking your ass to be boosted.
    And you could do the same thing if you were willing to run your own key, but for some reason you aren't.

    The *only* reason that people can ask for higher than required scores for their keys is that not enough people are willing to run their own keys.

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalrend View Post
    Will i say a same skill/gear level boomkin will be better than the warlock? Yes. Does it fucking matter in a +15 pug if people do their job and keep it simple. Fucking no.
    But you're missing the point. People don't HAVE to compromise on off-meta, not even a little. Better by an inch or better by a mile doesn't really matter to them - better is better. You are looking at it from the Warlock's perspective, but that's not how it works when people are inviting for their group. From THEIR perspective, there is no reason to take the Warlock over Mage or Boomkin if gear/io are equal. They COULD, and it probably wouldn't affect their key success - but why risk it? What reason do they have to take something that's even just a little bit worse, when they could just take something that's better, even if it's just a little better?

    And that's assuming smart, informed party leaders. A lot of people will not be that, and just tunnel-vision meta choices that trickle down from above, whether that's needed or not - and they can, because DPS is always in abundance.

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by ydraw View Post
    This is really not a problem unique to warlocks and you knew that when you chose to roll a pure DPS class.

    People playing at a level high enough to have KSM already aren't a bunch of metaslave morons as you seem to think they are. They are mostly very good players. But there will always be an oversupply of DPS so the answer is as always, find a guild, friends or run your own key rather than complain that someone didn't pick you out of the 50 applicants they got for their key.,

    - - - Updated - - -



    And you could do the same thing if you were willing to run your own key, but for some reason you aren't.

    The *only* reason that people can ask for higher than required scores for their keys is that not enough people are willing to run their own keys.
    Dude i did ran around 45+ of my own keys this week. That was the only way I get the mount because I didn't get a SINGLE invite to a +15 this week. This is the reason why this very annoying. Its not that I do rarely get picked, its that I didn't get picked, not a single time. Could I be fucking unlucky. Yes! Is it any less annoying. Fucking no mate. I don't mind running my own keys because most of the time I can do a vibe check in my key before the run starts, which is a very nice way to filter toxic people sometimes. I don't like when people start to bicker at each other on a key because it derails the key and its bloody annoying two dudes going passive aggresive at each other than playing in a timed environment.

    My problem is when you have 1 or 2 keys missing, and those keys are contested keys like DOS, you need to do 6-7 keys in order to recycle your key to the key you need on average, which is hours and hours of work for a single or double attempt in some cases. So god forbid if run doesn't go well thats another 5 hours down the shittier on content THAT I DON'T GET ANY GEAR NOR RIO. Thats the annoying part.

  11. #171
    why is it so hard to understand that there are 100 other DPS applying for these groups who likely have (more usefulness, higher r.io, higher item level, etc...)

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    But you're missing the point. People don't HAVE to compromise on off-meta, not even a little. Better by an inch or better by a mile doesn't really matter to them - better is better. You are looking at it from the Warlock's perspective, but that's not how it works when people are inviting for their group. From THEIR perspective, there is no reason to take the Warlock over Mage or Boomkin if gear/io are equal. They COULD, and it probably wouldn't affect their key success - but why risk it? What reason do they have to take something that's even just a little bit worse, when they could just take something that's better, even if it's just a little better?

    And that's assuming smart, informed party leaders. A lot of people will not be that, and just tunnel-vision meta choices that trickle down from above, whether that's needed or not - and they can, because DPS is always in abundance.
    Want a honest answer? I think people who reach at a hard objective with a handicap is generally is more skilled than whose do not. Which is more impressive for you? 1.6 k fury warrior or a 1.6 k fire mage? If I was going to have a bet which one is a better player, I would put my money on fury warrior, but that is just me. At least i can safely say the bloody fury is fucking stubborn as shit at least. So I think that is a factor that will affect my choice at least a bit. I do see what you say though, but I will still draw my line on the sand and say bloody +15 keys in this week is not hard nor challenging on 210+ I lvl. So all this min-max or die situation is very asinine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greyvax View Post
    why is it so hard to understand that there are 100 other DPS applying for these groups who likely have (more usefulness, higher r.io, higher item level, etc...)
    Because the content is not that fucking hard in my opinion as people makes it out to be. Not this week. Its like trying to min-max your weekly heroic group when you know you will blasts the bosses if you don't do excessive greedy shit like trying to lust at start of the boss for %99 parses instead of the part where you need to lust etc. Huge needless pulls on a non voice pug group on sanguine is a good example how you can lose shitton of time instead of saving time or even deplete a key. But that is just making a clown fiesta on a easy, simple run. You can simply avoid doing that. You don't need to min-max everything out so you can go full bonobo on every content.

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalrend View Post
    Want a honest answer? I think people who reach at a hard objective with a handicap is generally is more skilled than whose do not. Which is more impressive for you? 1.6 k fury warrior or a 1.6 k fire mage? If I was going to have a bet which one is a better player, I would put my money on fury warrior, but that is just me. At least i can safely say the bloody fury is fucking stubborn as shit at least. So I think that is a factor that will affect my choice at least a bit. I do see what you say though, but I will still draw my line on the sand and say bloody +15 keys in this week is not hard nor challenging on 210+ I lvl. So all this min-max or die situation is very asinine.
    That may be a factor at the VERY high end, but in the 15 PUG range people just want to play it safe, and so they pick the most meta comp - because on the whole, on average, it'll be the most successful.

    You're overthinking the amount of work and vetting that goes into group selection at that level. They check for a rio/ilvl threshold, and go for meta comp beyond that. That's probably it. Nobody is going to go off and think that perhaps maybe that Fury warrior who got to 1.6k is super amazing and so much better than the 1.6k Fire Mage that it's worth taking the chance.

    Maybe when you're doing 19+ keys with the really GG people they might do that, but even there it's probably going to be rare for this to happen.

  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalrend View Post
    Want a honest answer? I think people who reach at a hard objective with a handicap is generally is more skilled than whose do not. Which is more impressive for you? 1.6 k fury warrior or a 1.6 k fire mage? If I was going to have a bet which one is a better player, I would put my money on fury warrior, but that is just me. At least i can safely say the bloody fury is fucking stubborn as shit at least. So I think that is a factor that will affect my choice at least a bit. I do see what you say though, but I will still draw my line on the sand and say bloody +15 keys in this week is not hard nor challenging on 210+ I lvl. So all this min-max or die situation is very asinine.
    I personally support your desire to reprogram the entire human race's psychological tendencies -- weird to see this on a WoW forum of all places, but I do agree that a lot of the world's problems could be solved if people would just stop being so damned shitty.

  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalrend View Post
    I am typing this because I am genuinely about to break my keyboard with anger. 1310 rio Warlock here, Literally need 2 more dungeons to get +15 mount, grinded 12 hours per day since this reset if not more. Why? Because I didn't get a single dungeon invite this week. Zero. I applied more than 150 dungeons, not a single invite. What does the community require from you do get bloody invites? 1.3 K rio, 215 I lvl and how does everybody expecting to you to have more? I have been only doing my keys but at this point I just cannot stand going to some of the places for the 4th -5th bloody time.

    So heres my question, what do you require from your pugs to invite them to your high m+ pluses?

    1200 io Druid here,

    the reason i dont invite warlocks, is because hunters/mages/shamans bring more to the group,

    not to mention Warlocks seldom rarely spec into their interupt.

    yes you have insane burst, and cleave, and can reduce the damage from prideful,

    but there is little else a warlock can bring to the group, that most other classes dont already bring or far exceed at better than warlocks.
    Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler

    If you are trying to AE tank and a bad dps is attacking the wrong target and dies, we call that justice.

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    That may be a factor at the VERY high end, but in the 15 PUG range people just want to play it safe, and so they pick the most meta comp - because on the whole, on average, it'll be the most successful.

    You're overthinking the amount of work and vetting that goes into group selection at that level. They check for a rio/ilvl threshold, and go for meta comp beyond that. That's probably it. Nobody is going to go off and think that perhaps maybe that Fury warrior who got to 1.6k is super amazing and so much better than the 1.6k Fire Mage that it's worth taking the chance.

    Maybe when you're doing 19+ keys with the really GG people they might do that, but even there it's probably going to be rare for this to happen.
    I would still keep that fury warrior or whatever the underperforming spec dude close by because if a buff comes that makes spec viable, that dude will be shitting diamonds left, right and fucking center. But that is me. And I will respect him more as a player than the fucking meta spec dude who cannot even pass his level when he has every tool to do so.

  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalrend View Post
    I would still keep that fury warrior or whatever the underperforming spec dude close by because if a buff comes that makes spec viable, that dude will be shitting diamonds left, right and fucking center. But that is me. And I will respect him more as a player than the fucking meta spec dude who cannot even pass his level when he has every tool to do so.
    That's cool, and it's great that we have players who do put more thought into things.

    But most people won't, and that's why getting into 15 PUGs is a lot harder for off-meta than for meta, and always will be. Not because people are biased AGAINST off-meta, but because they're biased TOWARDS meta, and can afford to be thanks to the overabundance of DPS players.

  18. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by Shelly View Post
    Sorry the only thing I took away from this is that you've run 84+ dungeons a week and haven't made a single friend.
    "The game has the three letters "MMO" in it's genre name, therefore, it's find that people who can't / don't make friends can't have fun."

    No.

  19. #179
    Stood in the Fire
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    While I get the mockery, there is this general consensus that the only 'acceptable' ranged classes in a key is hunter, boomie and fire mage. That's spread down as far as the 10-12 level keys. That's a lot of players who are SOL simply for having the wrong color of class name, and its very frustrating.

    It's basically the fire mage, havoc and rogue meta from 8.3, except this seems somehow even more exclusionary.

  20. #180
    Herald of the Titans enigma77's Avatar
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    I play a lock myself and I know your pain, but here's the truth: I wouldn't invite a warlock either over a hunter, boomkin or firemage or monk.

    These classes are just better suited for Mythic +. More useful utility, especially to help out the tank.

    Lock utility isn't bad per se, but we can't support the tank much. One aoe stun and that's it for a minute.

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