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  1. #621
    Quote Originally Posted by Dalinos View Post
    I pity you, and all players like you, who have never spent more than a couple of months in the same guild, and can't understand ML is the ONLY way to run a loot distribution system based on meritocracy.

    I honestly feel sorry for you, for never having been in a situation where YOU were happy for SOMEONE ELSE getting loot. Cause it's a damn good feeling man, it really is. Or when OTHERS get happy YOU got loot. Also a really nice feeling. Cause remember, without them, you wouldn't have jack shit. Without you, they wouldn't have jack shit.

    Then again, I see you have a 10year MMO-C tag, same as me. Which means you've been here for a while. Which means, that in all these 10 years + you've been playing WoW, you've never been in a guild that was based on integrity, group effort, recognition of said effort and like-minded people coming together. Otherwise you wouldn't only have bad experiences with ML. That's sad dude. It really is sad.

    You call them "Tyrants" - I see a Guild-Master and Officer team that use THEIR time, THEIR effort, to make the raids YOU attend as successful and seamless and enjoyable as possible.

    You call "players getting BULLIED" - I see GOOD players trying to teach their guildies to be BETTER, more successful players/raiders. If gameplay advice from someone who is objectively better than you comes out as bullying, that's your problem, not anyone else's.

    You call "newcomers getting fucked" - I see new RECRUITS, that need to PROVE THEIR WORTH, both socially AND gameplay-wise, in order to be treated the same way as your year-long members that have been with you through thick and thin.

    Maybe at some point in your life you will manage to join a mature guild, that puts progress first and keeping lootwhores happy second. I sincerely hope you do.
    Checkmate. 10/10 well said.

    - - - Updated - - -

    If there's one absolute truth in this thread is that there are a lot of entitled parasites who never had the guts or skill to run a guild.

  2. #622
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Nah dude, your idealistic approach doesn't apply to everyone. You didn't seem to experience loot dramas such as mine in guild I've been like 2 years in.
    You are basically promoting communism.

    Not everyone is perfect and just, probability that out of 25 people you won't have couple greedy/karen guys is really low.
    Only on MMO-C will someone call a Meritocracy based system, communism. It is the OPPOSITE of communism my dude. It's using gear as a TOOL so that the whole GUILD can raid BETTER, based on personal performance. That's as far as Communism as it gets man.

    I've seen loot drama. Hell, I've even CAUSED loot drama when the guild's founding principles were forgotten.

    "Loot goes to whoever it benefits the raid, the most".

    That's always been the loot paradigm in every guild I've been in. The OP melee trinket WILL go to your 2.6k rated Arms Warrior cause he knows the game better than 90% of the guild and can pump DPS numbers you wouldn't even dream of. Vala'nyr, the crazy healing legendary mace from Ulduar WILL go to the Priest Officer, who's been playing Priest for 6 years and counting, because he's the one who uses HIS OWN out-of-game time to come up with the best healing strategies that fit his roster of healers best, so that bosses can go down. The crazy tanking shield WILL go to your Maintank, not the new recruit who joined 2 weeks ago, cause your Maintank has 100% raid attendance and has been farming for that shield for 3 months.

    That has always been the loot distribution paradigm in every guild I've ever been in. From the top-500 EU guild I spent 4 years in, to my LITERAL Dad Casual Classic guild that I'm in right now.

    You know what the best part is? When someone asks WHY player X or Y got a specific item.

    You know what the responses are? "Player X has missed 1 raid the last 6 months. He's never late, always brings full consumes, never fails when extra responsibilities are required of him (add handling, interrupts, w/e). The last item he got was Y amount of raids ago. Numbers wise, it is the biggest upgrade for him."

    Transparency man. Transparency is key. Knowing WHY someone got a piece of loot is extremely important, because it shows you the MANY criteria and variables used in assigning loot. My casual dad guild has an excel sheet that gets updated weekly, with every single item that has dropped, from the day we started raiding in October 2019. This excel sheet is public information on our discord. ANY member can pull it up and see who got what loot when.

    You know what happens to greedy Karens, as you call them? They leave. They just fucking /gquit man. They see that their 2-week trial period means lowest priority on loot and they don't stick around. And you know what? Good fucking riddance. I, and my guildies, don't WANT people who are like that. We don't WANT to raid with people who are lootwhores, who put loot as the number 1 priority. And they just leave, on their own, no harm done. And that's fine.

    Do you see how in all of these scenarios, Personal Loot would be a downside? Would be a lesser solution?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by marcusblood View Post
    Checkmate. 10/10 well said.

    - - - Updated - - -

    If there's one absolute truth in this thread is that there are a lot of entitled parasites who never had the guts or skill to run a guild.
    It's not only about having the guts or skill to run a guild man...it's also about being a fucking decent human being. That's what I LOVE about raiding in WoW Classic. If you are an asshat, if you are a troll, if you are a fucking retard, you won't get anywhere. People do NOT want to pass their chill-time (which is what raiding is, it's having a good time with your mates) with people who are unfun to play with. Being a Raider is a title, which is earned, not given. It encompasses a myriad of characteristics that one must have to be qualified as a Raider.

    You gotta be a team-player. You gotta be calm. You gotta be dedicated. You gotta be respectful, both of other people's time, and your own time, that you pour into the game. You gotta have a level of understanding, and empathy. You WANT your fellow raiders to be happy, and motivated, because happy and motivated raiders produce the best results. And the ONLY FUCKING WAY to keep a BATTALION (cause that's what we are, quite literally, a fucking battalion in terms of size) of 40 raiders happy is to have a fair, transparent, meritocracy-based loot system that puts the progress of the guild first and foremost.

    Having no Master Looter doesn't allow us to do this shit.

  3. #623
    Quote Originally Posted by Dalinos View Post
    I pity you, and all players like you, who have never spent more than a couple of months in the same guild, and can't understand ML is the ONLY way to run a loot distribution system based on meritocracy.

    I honestly feel sorry for you, for never having been in a situation where YOU were happy for SOMEONE ELSE getting loot. Cause it's a damn good feeling man, it really is. Or when OTHERS get happy YOU got loot. Also a really nice feeling. Cause remember, without them, you wouldn't have jack shit. Without you, they wouldn't have jack shit.

    Then again, I see you have a 10year MMO-C tag, same as me. Which means you've been here for a while. Which means, that in all these 10 years + you've been playing WoW, you've never been in a guild that was based on integrity, group effort, recognition of said effort and like-minded people coming together. Otherwise you wouldn't only have bad experiences with ML. That's sad dude. It really is sad.

    You call them "Tyrants" - I see a Guild-Master and Officer team that use THEIR time, THEIR effort, to make the raids YOU attend as successful and seamless and enjoyable as possible.

    You call "players getting BULLIED" - I see GOOD players trying to teach their guildies to be BETTER, more successful players/raiders. If gameplay advice from someone who is objectively better than you comes out as bullying, that's your problem, not anyone else's.

    You call "newcomers getting fucked" - I see new RECRUITS, that need to PROVE THEIR WORTH, both socially AND gameplay-wise, in order to be treated the same way as your year-long members that have been with you through thick and thin.

    Maybe at some point in your life you will manage to join a mature guild, that puts progress first and keeping lootwhores happy second. I sincerely hope you do.
    Keep your pity, lol. For most of us it's just a casual hobby man. I choose to not be hardcore, it's not for me. How you describe your guild working is how maybe 1% of guilds work. My guild right now is constantly cycling through players, I play for a few months and leave all the time as my schedule fits or doesn't fit with raiding. Our GM's a healer with all gray parses on heroic. There are at least 6 officers and only about 14 people in the raid. Virtually every single person has been a more serious raider at some point, EXCEPT the GM and one of the other healers who is also an officer.

    If they turned master loot on, the 3-4 people who spend a lot of time running the guild would probably want to do master loot. And it would be the wrong decision. It already takes our GM 20 minutes to put the raid together at the start of the night, I don't want to spend another 10 every time a boss dies with them giving out loot. Hell, the best players get most of their loot from M+ anyway so it really doesn't matter. Just let us roll.

    Also, to your comment:

    Quote Originally Posted by Dalinos View Post
    I honestly feel sorry for you, for never having been in a situation where YOU were happy for SOMEONE ELSE getting loot. Cause it's a damn good feeling man, it really is. Or when OTHERS get happy YOU got loot. Also a really nice feeling. Cause remember, without them, you wouldn't have jack shit. Without you, they wouldn't have jack shit.
    Do you think that personal loot = no loot? Because my guild still gets loot, and everyone is happy for each other when it happens.

    To all the rest of it, dude I'm too old to worry about proving my worth. I've played this game for a long time, I'm not expecting a GM to teach me anything, and I'm just not interested in trying to make sure that my status is good enough that I get loot. And I can't speak for everyone, but pretty much everyone I know feels the same way by now. If I'm in a guild and I have to take 3 months off because my job gets busy, I don't want to come back and have them be like "well you have to earn loot by getting dkp for three weeks" or whatever. I want what I got in my guild "Hey! Welcome back! Do you want to come to the raid next week?" with absolutely nothing about "ok you need to earn back your spot you're a noob again".

    If there was a way to give you ML because it would be beneficial for you, without causing a significant degradation of my gaming experience, I'd be fine with it. But personal loot is just so good for me. It really is. So I, and I believe a lot of people like me, are overjoyed that it's gone.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dalinos View Post
    Only on MMO-C will someone call a Meritocracy based system, communism. It is the OPPOSITE of communism my dude.
    You didn't understand what he meant. He was using communism as an example of a system that works well in ideal circumstances, but often fails in practice because reality is less than ideal. He's arguing that master loot is similar - in theory, it's great. Tons of us in this thread have explained why we're concerned about it in practice.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dalinos View Post
    It's not only about having the guts or skill to run a guild man...it's also about being a fucking decent human being. That's what I LOVE about raiding in WoW Classic. If you are an asshat, if you are a troll, if you are a fucking retard, you won't get anywhere.
    Here's a quote from a guy on Preach's stream I was watching today. He was describing Vanilla's loot paradigm, which also outlines the reason why they consistently moved away from it:

    "Back in Vanilla days, there was like feeder guilds. The way you went up was getting gear in one guild then fucking over that guild, leaving with that gear to go to a guild that was actually much higher progressed, and that's just how it worked."

    Again: idealistic theory... everyone pledges loyalty to the guild, one for all, all for one, cheer for the people who got 6 pieces of loot when you get none because they are better than you.

    In practice: Fuck you guys, I got my loot, time to move up the ladder! Byeee...

  4. #624
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    Keep your pity, lol. For most of us it's just a casual hobby man. I choose to not be hardcore, it's not for me. How you describe your guild working is how maybe 1% of guilds work. My guild right now is constantly cycling through players, I play for a few months and leave all the time as my schedule fits or doesn't fit with raiding. Our GM's a healer with all gray parses on heroic. There are at least 6 officers and only about 14 people in the raid. Virtually every single person has been a more serious raider at some point, EXCEPT the GM and one of the other healers who is also an officer.

    If they turned master loot on, the 3-4 people who spend a lot of time running the guild would probably want to do master loot. And it would be the wrong decision. It already takes our GM 20 minutes to put the raid together at the start of the night, I don't want to spend another 10 every time a boss dies with them giving out loot. Hell, the best players get most of their loot from M+ anyway so it really doesn't matter. Just let us roll.

    Also, to your comment:



    Do you think that personal loot = no loot? Because my guild still gets loot, and everyone is happy for each other when it happens.

    To all the rest of it, dude I'm too old to worry about proving my worth. I've played this game for a long time, I'm not expecting a GM to teach me anything, and I'm just not interested in trying to make sure that my status is good enough that I get loot. And I can't speak for everyone, but pretty much everyone I know feels the same way by now. If I'm in a guild and I have to take 3 months off because my job gets busy, I don't want to come back and have them be like "well you have to earn loot by getting dkp for three weeks" or whatever. I want what I got in my guild "Hey! Welcome back! Do you want to come to the raid next week?" with absolutely nothing about "ok you need to earn back your spot you're a noob again".

    If there was a way to give you ML because it would be beneficial for you, without causing a significant degradation of my gaming experience, I'd be fine with it. But personal loot is just so good for me. It really is. So I, and I believe a lot of people like me, are overjoyed that it's gone.

    - - - Updated - - -



    You didn't understand what he meant. He was using communism as an example of a system that works well in ideal circumstances, but often fails in practice because reality is less than ideal. He's arguing that master loot is similar - in theory, it's great. Tons of us in this thread have explained why we're concerned about it in practice.
    Then keep on using Personal Loot then. Not once have I advocated for the REMOVAL of Personal Loot. I've only advocated for the RETURN of Master Looter. Like I said before, both can co-exist. You use your loot system, since your guild is prone to abuse and corruption, and let my casual 2-raids-a-week Dad guild use Master Looter. Where's the issue?

    If people in your guild respected each other's time, the GM wouldn't waste 20 mins making the raid. He'd use something along the lines of "First pull of the raid is at 20:00 gametime, be online by 19:30 gametime, invites start at 19:45", as the Guild Message of the Day. There, easy solution to a non-existent problem.

    If your casual guild wanted to switch to ML, when PL has been serving you well, just be fucking vocal about it man. You can say something along the lines of "Hey, ML wastes too much raid time, let's stick to PL, much faster/efficient". If there's a negative reaction from leadership, then call a guild vote, much like we did to see which of our casters would get Atiesh from Naxxramas. Oh my, another solution to a non-existent problem.

    Take all the time and effort you've used this past week on MMO-C, trying to demonize Master Looter, and channel it to something more productive man. I just solved 2 of your main issues (power abuse, time wasting in raids) in less than 30 seconds, in 1 post. You can do the same. Go do that instead.

    All the problems you claim ML brings can be avoided by simply not using it. Let us who KNOW how to use ML properly, use it. That is all.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    Keep your pity, lol. For most of us it's just a casual hobby man. I choose to not be hardcore, it's not for me. How you describe your guild working is how maybe 1% of guilds work. My guild right now is constantly cycling through players, I play for a few months and leave all the time as my schedule fits or doesn't fit with raiding. Our GM's a healer with all gray parses on heroic. There are at least 6 officers and only about 14 people in the raid. Virtually every single person has been a more serious raider at some point, EXCEPT the GM and one of the other healers who is also an officer.

    If they turned master loot on, the 3-4 people who spend a lot of time running the guild would probably want to do master loot. And it would be the wrong decision. It already takes our GM 20 minutes to put the raid together at the start of the night, I don't want to spend another 10 every time a boss dies with them giving out loot. Hell, the best players get most of their loot from M+ anyway so it really doesn't matter. Just let us roll.

    Also, to your comment:



    Do you think that personal loot = no loot? Because my guild still gets loot, and everyone is happy for each other when it happens.

    To all the rest of it, dude I'm too old to worry about proving my worth. I've played this game for a long time, I'm not expecting a GM to teach me anything, and I'm just not interested in trying to make sure that my status is good enough that I get loot. And I can't speak for everyone, but pretty much everyone I know feels the same way by now. If I'm in a guild and I have to take 3 months off because my job gets busy, I don't want to come back and have them be like "well you have to earn loot by getting dkp for three weeks" or whatever. I want what I got in my guild "Hey! Welcome back! Do you want to come to the raid next week?" with absolutely nothing about "ok you need to earn back your spot you're a noob again".

    If there was a way to give you ML because it would be beneficial for you, without causing a significant degradation of my gaming experience, I'd be fine with it. But personal loot is just so good for me. It really is. So I, and I believe a lot of people like me, are overjoyed that it's gone.

    - - - Updated - - -



    You didn't understand what he meant. He was using communism as an example of a system that works well in ideal circumstances, but often fails in practice because reality is less than ideal. He's arguing that master loot is similar - in theory, it's great. Tons of us in this thread have explained why we're concerned about it in practice.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Here's a quote from a guy on Preach's stream I was watching today. He was describing Vanilla's loot paradigm, which also outlines the reason why they consistently moved away from it:

    "Back in Vanilla days, there was like feeder guilds. The way you went up was getting gear in one guild then fucking over that guild, leaving with that gear to go to a guild that was actually much higher progressed, and that's just how it worked."

    Again: idealistic theory... everyone pledges loyalty to the guild, one for all, all for one, cheer for the people who got 6 pieces of loot when you get none because they are better than you.

    In practice: Fuck you guys, I got my loot, time to move up the ladder! Byeee...
    "A guy from Preach's stream", what a relevant source of information. On my server in OG vanilla, guild-hoppers were blacklisted. The moment you switched guilds twice, that was a red flag. There was even a site we used (before the Armory was created) which showed you which guilds that player had been in during his lifetime. People that guild-hopped alot were not accepted in raiding guilds on my server. Sounds like a server issue. Also, no Loot Council would funnel SIX pieces of gear to the same person while others from the same class got 0. Case in point, Priest T2. We made sure EVERY priest got 3/8 T2 ASAP, cause that set bonus is brokenly OP (+15% mana regeneration while casting). It rarely benefits the raid to give so much loot to ONE person. A few strong items, yes, a full set of gear, no. Hence why I say, transparency is key.
    Last edited by Dalinos; 2021-02-19 at 04:37 AM.

  5. #625
    Quote Originally Posted by Dalinos View Post
    All the problems you claim ML brings can be avoided by simply not using it. Let us who KNOW how to use ML properly, use it. That is all.
    Nope. Because it's like a virus. Lots of people will think they need to use it but they don't. It's the same reason you see tanks pulling triple packs on a +6 Sanguine Depths and wiping ridiculously because Dratnos told them that's the way to do it. It will be impossible to avoid.

    In practice, there are really only two choices. If master loot is on, everyone will use it. I think for most people it will be the wrong decision. That's exactly why it's not allowed. There are tons of rules in society that work like this. I swam in college. For me to dive in when the pool is only 4 feet deep is no risk. I've done it literally thousands of times. It's actually easier than jumping in, and saves me from tweaking my bad knee.

    But for the vast majority of swimmers, it's dangerous. No one is going to look at me and say, "Oh you're advanced enough to do this appropriately", I have to jump in. It's annoying, but it's also practical.

  6. #626
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    Nope. Because it's like a virus. Lots of people will think they need to use it but they don't. It's the same reason you see tanks pulling triple packs on a +6 Sanguine Depths and wiping ridiculously because Dratnos told them that's the way to do it. It will be impossible to avoid.

    In practice, there are really only two choices. If master loot is on, everyone will use it. I think for most people it will be the wrong decision. That's exactly why it's not allowed. There are tons of rules in society that work like this. I swam in college. For me to dive in when the pool is only 4 feet deep is no risk. I've done it literally thousands of times. It's actually easier than jumping in, and saves me from tweaking my bad knee.

    But for the vast majority of swimmers, it's dangerous. No one is going to look at me and say, "Oh you're advanced enough to do this appropriately", I have to jump in. It's annoying, but it's also practical.
    Then I'm sorry, but your college was wrong. Since you said "college", I'll assume you're American.

    I'm Greek. We learn to swim by the age of half a year old. It is said that the Mediterranean runs through our veins, since Greeks have been sailors for over 4,000 years.

    Noone in their right mind would not allow people to dive into a pool, here in Greece, because as you yourself said, it is common knowledge that diving in is much more efficient and causes much less injuries than jumping in. Greek pools have the sign that says "No running", they don't have the sign that says "No diving". Bad example there mate, try another. I'm still not convinced.

  7. #627
    Quote Originally Posted by Dalinos View Post
    Then I'm sorry, but your college was wrong. Since you said "college", I'll assume you're American.

    I'm Greek. We learn to swim by the age of half a year old. It is said that the Mediterranean runs through our veins, since Greeks have been sailors for over 4,000 years.

    Noone in their right mind would not allow people to dive into a pool, here in Greece, because as you yourself said, it is common knowledge that diving in is much more efficient and causes much less injuries than jumping in. Greek pools have the sign that says "No running", they don't have the sign that says "No diving". Bad example there mate, try another. I'm still not convinced.
    Way to take an analogy way too literally, lol.

  8. #628
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    Way to take an analogy way too literally, lol.
    Not my fault you live in a country where the Norm is to NOT dive in a pool. THAT, is ridiculous, I'm sorry - just as ridiculous as a casual guild using Master Looter cause that's what the World First guilds do.

  9. #629
    Quote Originally Posted by Dalinos View Post
    Not my fault you live in a country where the Norm is to NOT dive in a pool. THAT, is ridiculous, I'm sorry.
    Ok, I give up. This is pointless.

  10. #630
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    Ok, I give up. This is pointless.
    Just as pointless as you trying, in futility mind you, to prove that the removal of ML is a GOOD thing. Removal of choice is ALWAYS a bad thing. Especially when it doesn't affect you how my guild runs our loot in any way, shape or form. And I already told you. If ML was reintroduced and your guild wanted to use it, BE VOCAL ABOUT IT. TELL THEM you don't wanna use it, OUTLINE the problems like you've been doing on MMO-C (instead of your own fucking guild-chat), and convince them PL is better.

    Do we remove cars, cause there are drunk drivers?

    Do we remove screwdrivers, cause some crazy dude can stab you with one?

    Do we remove Cannabis, cause some people are stoners, when it provides clear medical benefits to cancer patients?

    You didn't refute my assumption of you being American, so I'ma keep assuming you are American, so here's an example that'll hit close to home for you.

    Do we remove guns, cause some people murder others?

    I mean, it's obvious who plays the game more and who chills on MMO-C more. You've got a 5-year tag with 9,500 posts. I've got a 10-year tag with 630 posts. You spend more time on MMOC arguing/discussing the game than you do PLAYING the game. Jesus.
    Last edited by Dalinos; 2021-02-19 at 05:05 AM.

  11. #631
    Quote Originally Posted by Dalinos View Post
    Just as pointless as you trying, in futility mind you, to prove that the removal of ML is a GOOD thing. Removal of choice is ALWAYS a bad thing. Especially when it doesn't affect you how my guild runs our loot in any way, shape or form. And I already told you. If ML was reintroduced and your guild wanted to use it, BE VOCAL ABOUT IT. TELL THEM you don't wanna use it, OUTLINE the problems like you've been doing on MMO-C (instead of your own fucking guild-chat), and convince them PL is better.

    Do we remove cars, cause there are drunk drivers?

    Do we remove screwdrivers, cause some crazy dude can stab you with one?

    Do we remove Cannabis, cause some people are stoners, when it provides clear medical benefits to cancer patients?

    You didn't refute my assumption of you being American, so I'ma keep assuming you are American, so here's an example that'll hit close to home for you.

    Do we remove guns, cause some people murder others?

    I mean, it's obvious who plays the game more and who chills on MMO-C more. You've got a 5-year tag with 9,500 posts. I've got a 10-year tag with 630 posts. You spend more time on MMOC arguing/discussing the game than you do PLAYING the game. Jesus.
    I feel i need to recognise the issue here being that a lot of the more mediocre raiders will try to use master loot and the learning process is something some people dislike. It boils down to having a pool and professional swimmers want to have the choice of the high and low platform to jump, but most are casual friends, and some want to use the boards, while others want to chill in tiered steps.

    The problem happens when i am a casual and people in my grp insist on the jumping board. i dont like it but i also got my friends. i need to either find a new grp or start using the board to be with them.

    Some of us advocate to let people face this and if they dont like the board find new groups, as to remove the choice of the board is negative.
    Others think that since the board is more of a meme for the casuals and they cant use it properly anyway why not block it to avoid the unpleasantness and inconvinience.

    I can understand why someone who wants to play very casually wants to avoid a lot of things. If able a lot of them would avoid the social contact as well. just go blind mute and randomly hop in groups and play because they want to relax and not have to make a lot of effort socially or skillwise. I do not criticise that at all its a gameplay choice.

    I think people deep down know that this carefree more relaxed system doesnt work well and want a blanket protection to not have to put more effort than desired. And there we (organised raiders) dissagree with them(chill raiders).

    I think ML as a choice for myth only guilds would be a generous compromise on behalf of organised raiders. Ideally heroic ML choice as well. Because if you want to do hc without a bit more organisation ehhhhh you can do it sure eventually. But i think its demanding enough to justify ML as a choice.
    Last edited by Popokolara; 2021-02-19 at 05:23 AM.

  12. #632
    Quote Originally Posted by Dalinos View Post
    Only on MMO-C will someone call a Meritocracy based system, communism. It is the OPPOSITE of communism my dude. It's using gear as a TOOL so that the whole GUILD can raid BETTER, based on personal performance. That's as far as Communism as it gets man.

    I've seen loot drama. Hell, I've even CAUSED loot drama when the guild's founding principles were forgotten.

    "Loot goes to whoever it benefits the raid, the most".
    There is really no point in arguing when you didn't even understand what I meant. You are promoting communism where everyone works together as a team and power of friendship is the most OP power that lets you overcome worst hurdles.

    Sooner or later some people will think or even say they deserved loot more. Cause humans aint perfect no matter how much you wanna "fair" loot system, master looter is far from it.

    And again, "whoever it benefits the raid the most" is gonna be hard for anyone to actually definitely decide. You know it right?
    BfA > Wotlk > Cata > ... > WoD ~ TBC > Vanilla > ................ ? .............. > Legion > ... > Eating Dust > .... > SL
    You said corruption was great system. Can't find it and proceeds to lie again.
    Legendaries were such a great system I had them all before blizz lifted softcap

  13. #633
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    There is really no point in arguing when you didn't even understand what I meant. You are promoting communism where everyone works together as a team and power of friendship is the most OP power that lets you overcome worst hurdles.

    Sooner or later some people will think or even say they deserved loot more. Cause humans aint perfect no matter how much you wanna "fair" loot system, master looter is far from it.

    And again, "whoever it benefits the raid the most" is gonna be hard for anyone to actually definitely decide. You know it right?
    Uhm...you are aware of the existence of Warcraft Logs, correct? "Whoever it benefits the raid the most" is actually quite easy to see, through logs, if the people looking at the logs know what to look for. It's...really not that hard.

  14. #634
    Master looter? Just look at gbid runs on classic. That is mind blowing bussines. Pay loads of gold for an item >< NO TNX. Personal loot is ok. Its not perfect but hella better than master looter.

  15. #635
    Quote Originally Posted by czarek View Post
    Master looter? Just look at gbid runs on classic. That is mind blowing bussines. Pay loads of gold for an item >< NO TNX. Personal loot is ok. Its not perfect but hella better than master looter.
    GDKP has always been in the game. I was selling Zul'Aman bears during TBC 2 times a week (3-day resets ftw). Our last bear, on the reset before it was removed, sold for 9,000 gold. In OG TBC. Silvermoon EU - Alliance side. Guy's name was Dragonkimber.

    You seem to be against the concept of hiring a team of good raiders to clear content for you so you can get loot/mounts/achievements. I'd advise you log on Retail and look at Trade chat. Heroic Castle Narthria clears will be sold shortly, if they haven't started already.

  16. #636
    Quote Originally Posted by Dalinos View Post
    I pity you, and all players like you, who have never spent more than a couple of months in the same guild, and can't understand ML is the ONLY way to run a loot distribution system based on meritocracy.

    I honestly feel sorry for you, for never having been in a situation where YOU were happy for SOMEONE ELSE getting loot. Cause it's a damn good feeling man, it really is. Or when OTHERS get happy YOU got loot. Also a really nice feeling. Cause remember, without them, you wouldn't have jack shit. Without you, they wouldn't have jack shit.

    Then again, I see you have a 10year MMO-C tag, same as me. Which means you've been here for a while. Which means, that in all these 10 years + you've been playing WoW, you've never been in a guild that was based on integrity, group effort, recognition of said effort and like-minded people coming together. Otherwise you wouldn't only have bad experiences with ML. That's sad dude. It really is sad.

    You call them "Tyrants" - I see a Guild-Master and Officer team that use THEIR time, THEIR effort, to make the raids YOU attend as successful and seamless and enjoyable as possible.

    You call "players getting BULLIED" - I see GOOD players trying to teach their guildies to be BETTER, more successful players/raiders. If gameplay advice from someone who is objectively better than you comes out as bullying, that's your problem, not anyone else's.

    You call "newcomers getting fucked" - I see new RECRUITS, that need to PROVE THEIR WORTH, both socially AND gameplay-wise, in order to be treated the same way as your year-long members that have been with you through thick and thin.

    Maybe at some point in your life you will manage to join a mature guild, that puts progress first and keeping lootwhores happy second. I sincerely hope you do.
    Too bad you live in a dream world, Blizzard clearly understands that delusions like yours doesn't stand any merit, hence the very much needed personal loot indeed.

  17. #637
    Quote Originally Posted by neik View Post
    Too bad you live in a dream world, Blizzard clearly understands that delusions like yours doesn't stand any merit, hence the very much needed personal loot indeed.
    What a nice way to wave off all my arguments, while continuing to spout your bullshit. My "dream world" has been my reality for 12 years + of raiding. Why? Cause I looked for guilds that have mature leadership and fair loot rules. I pity you and feel sad for all the bad times you've had in WoW. I wish you find a guild that suits your playstyle so you can actually have some fun in the game.

    You sound just like the parasites @marcusblood is talking about. It's doubtful you've ever had a parse above 80%. You sound like a person who's leeched off the efforts of others, for many many years, if the removal of ML is such a gleeful event for you. No serious raider wants 0 control over who gets what loot.
    Last edited by Dalinos; 2021-02-19 at 03:01 PM.

  18. #638
    Quote Originally Posted by Dalinos View Post
    What a nice way to wave off all my arguments, while continuing to spout your bullshit. My "dream world" has been my reality for 12 years + of raiding. Why? Cause I looked for guilds that have mature leadership and fair loot rules. I pity you and feel sad for all the bad times you've had in WoW. I wish you find a guild that suits your playstyle so you can actually have some fun in the game.

    You sound just like the parasites @marcusblood is talking about. It's doubtful you've ever had a parse above 80%. You sound like a person who's leeched off the efforts of others, for many many years, if the removal of ML is such a gleeful event for you. No serious raider wants 0 control over who gets what loot.
    Pretty much this. They were those loot whores in a guild that thought any piece of gear that dropped they could equip belonged to them. We can see right through their bullshit.

  19. #639
    Quote Originally Posted by Dalinos View Post
    What a nice way to wave off all my arguments, while continuing to spout your bullshit.
    Ironic because that is exactly what you are doing.
    Last edited by rrayy; 2021-02-19 at 05:21 PM.

  20. #640
    Quote Originally Posted by marcusblood View Post
    Checkmate. 10/10 well said.

    - - - Updated - - -

    If there's one absolute truth in this thread is that there are a lot of entitled parasites who never had the guts or skill to run a guild.
    Calm down there, Ayn Rand. Running a guild is mostly tedious bullshit for a lot of people, not something exclusively reserved to superhumans. The truth I see is that the monumental arrogance of some posters only reinforces the notion that players having control over loot is better left to history.

    And before you try the personal attacks, I've been in guilds for years and got my Cutting Edges, so stow it with that sort of nonsense. Being a sweaty nerd that kills pixels for phat lewt can be fun, but hardly makes you special.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

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