Masterloot should return

[kaminaris]

But mate, as I iterated before, SYSTEMS are never the problem. The Human Factor is always the problem. Theoretical Capitalism is equal to Theoretical Feudalism which is equal to Theoretical Communism. On paper, all economic/political systems are utopias. It's the HUMAN factor that always fucks things up.

Dude, it's simply shit system if it doesn't factor humans. You don't design system for robots.

[Popokolara]

Some of the posts on here are nothing but fits of impotent rage, a painful longing to somehow be better than everyone else, and they think ML would signal that. I never made a comment on my thoughts on PL v ML, the pros and cons of both (I will say that I think each has both), it isn't a mire I want to get into due to the sheer amount of frothing, needless impotent rage coming from sections of a particular side. And it is impotent- ML isn't coming back. To get that angry and spiteful over something that isn't coming back, it is sad.

impotent rage is calling people names while ignoring the arguments they make and mask them as some vile malevolent selfish demon, rather than actually criticise what they say. This is the very act of trying to feel better, by demonizing the opposition. Making fun of the senseless babboon who acts like that is neither rage nor an attempt to feel better. its criticism with a spoon of mean.

the difference is -really- clear. answer to arguments who are not based on any kind of insulting the other side, and differentiate accusation of a bad character based on mentality expressed and the rest of the post which can be arguments NOT depending on said accusation. If things are like you say shouldnt be hard.

and i mean, precisely quote and dont distort context. there is raging yes, but there are also arguments. if u can tackle them it will be interesting.

[dcc626]

Heya. I havent played BFA i took a long break.
Now i have returned in shadowlands and also returned to competetive raiding.
Dam the amount of loot that is actually wasted with personal loot is beyong my imagination.
Why do people complain that much about masterloot in een Guild raid envoirment?
Like if ur in the guild u want to progress and giving certain classes their correct stats helps...
Now you are forced to keep the crappy Ring so you can trae the next ring you will get..

its not coming back. along with lots of other things that people keep crying about.

[tehealadin]

impotent rage is

No, it isn't, it literally isn't. It is raging about something you have no power to control. You don't seem to understand what the term means. Seriously, go and google the term.

the difference is -really- clear. answer to arguments who are not based on any kind of insulting the other side, and differentiate accusation of a bad character based on mentality expressed and the rest of the post which can be arguments NOT depending on said accusation. If things are like you say shouldnt be hard.

Why would people want to engage with any arguments made by people frothing at the mouth, calling people parasites etc?

X, Y, Z: FUCKING PARASITES!!! BRING BACK ML NAO!!!!
ME: Fackinell lads, that's a lot of impotent rage
YOU: U R THE IMPOTENT RAGE!!! TAKE THEM SERIOUSLY!!! STOP TRYING TO MAKE U FEEL BETTER!!! U SHOULDNT MAKE INSULTS!!!+ /ignore the insulting tone of the people being criticised, essentially saying that only one "side" can be insulting, making it clear what "side" you are on, while also assuming what "side" I am on

There is an important lesson in this, one you don't seem to have grasped. If someone wants to be taken seriously, encapsulating their arguments in a barrage of mindless insults and abuse isn't an effective way to get the message across. This is demonstrated time and again in all sorts of domains, in all places across all times. Argue against this all you want, insist that it is a perfectly sound communication strategy, insist that focusing on the insulting and abusive nature of the message is the real evil and the real failure of communication all you want, you are in a very small minority who thinks this way.

Come back and attempt to redefine more clearly defined terms all you want, scream into the void, I am done with you.

[Dalinos]

No, it isn't, it literally isn't. It is raging about something you have no power to control. You don't seem to understand what the term means. Seriously, go and google the term.


Why would people want to engage with any arguments made by people frothing at the mouth, calling people parasites etc?

X, Y, Z: FUCKING PARASITES!!! BRING BACK ML NAO!!!!
ME: Fackinell lads, that's a lot of impotent rage
YOU: U R THE IMPOTENT RAGE!!! TAKE THEM SERIOUSLY!!! STOP TRYING TO MAKE U FEEL BETTER!!! U SHOULDNT MAKE INSULTS!!!+ /ignore the insulting tone of the people being criticised, essentially saying that only one "side" can be insulting, making it clear what "side" you are on, while also assuming what "side" I am on

There is an important lesson in this, one you don't seem to have grasped. If someone wants to be taken seriously, encapsulating their arguments in a barrage of mindless insults and abuse isn't an effective way to get the message across. This is demonstrated time and again in all sorts of domains, in all places across all times. Argue against this all you want, insist that it is a perfectly sound communication strategy, insist that focusing on the insulting and abusive nature of the message is the real evil and the real failure of communication all you want, you are in a very small minority who thinks this way.

Come back and attempt to redefine more clearly defined terms all you want, scream into the void, I am done with you.

Find 1 of my posts where I'm offensive, call people names and do all the other things you claim we ML supporters do. I've given real life examples, of non-hardcore guilds, like my 2-raids-per-week Classic Dad guild, using ML to its utmost efficiency, yet noone is responding to those examples/arguments. I've used the word "Meritocracy" a bunch of times, noone has answered as to how ML is NOT Meritocratic or PL is Meritocratic.

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Dude, it's simply shit system if it doesn't factor humans. You don't design system for robots.

Then I've got news for you buddy...

Earth, the planet we live on, is governed by laws of Physics, Chemistry and Biology, which were all created by mama Nature WAY before we puny Humans appeared on the cosmic scene.

ALL SYSTEMS on Earth, whether it's science, politics, economics, you name it, have ALL been made with the assumption that Humans aren't shitty. But guess what. We are. Just like we turned Nobel's invention of Gunpowder into a weapon of destruction instead of a tool of creation, like he intended. You can jump off a building in an attempt to fly, but Gravity isn't gonna give 2 shits, and is gonna pull you down to your death. THAT'S how much laws/systems care for humans.

[Popokolara]

No, it isn't, it literally isn't. It is raging about something you have no power to control. You don't seem to understand what the term means. Seriously, go and google the term.


Why would people want to engage with any arguments made by people frothing at the mouth, calling people parasites etc?

X, Y, Z: FUCKING PARASITES!!! BRING BACK ML NAO!!!!
ME: Fackinell lads, that's a lot of impotent rage
YOU: U R THE IMPOTENT RAGE!!! TAKE THEM SERIOUSLY!!! STOP TRYING TO MAKE U FEEL BETTER!!! U SHOULDNT MAKE INSULTS!!!+ /ignore the insulting tone of the people being criticised, essentially saying that only one "side" can be insulting, making it clear what "side" you are on, while also assuming what "side" I am on

There is an important lesson in this, one you don't seem to have grasped. If someone wants to be taken seriously, encapsulating their arguments in a barrage of mindless insults and abuse isn't an effective way to get the message across. This is demonstrated time and again in all sorts of domains, in all places across all times. Argue against this all you want, insist that it is a perfectly sound communication strategy, insist that focusing on the insulting and abusive nature of the message is the real evil and the real failure of communication all you want, you are in a very small minority who thinks this way.

Come back and attempt to redefine more clearly defined terms all you want, scream into the void, I am done with you.

Lets take this from the start.


Accusations and judgements of character are not abuse and insults. This is not debatable.

Said accusations and judgements are no excuse to not engage in conversation. The truth is of course you can choose not to. But what really matters is this has been a long discussion with people who are sometimes more, sometimes less constructive or subjective or even plain out tolling. There do exist clear arguments amongst the many other fluff, that make a case for one or the other side.

When these arguments are not examined for their own merrit and logic there is a problem. If you choose to ignore a properly worded arguments 3 pages back. Or decide that the accussation of slacker on a sentence folowwing the argument itself is reason enough to disregard it you are a hypocrite. This again is not debatable. An argument is an argument for its own merrit.


Sometimes when i read something very provocative along the lines off: all those who want Ml back are abusers and scum, cliques, fantasy power vilains etc etc, i lose it and reply in an aggressive way. Mind you i try to not type just accusations but i certainly could be speaking better.

But i will examine the exact message of the provocative text in its context because otherwise in a discussion about ml vs pl i talk about...manners?


When the topic is A vs B i undestand why the right way to have civilised discource is politeness. But i also understand the messags essential to this discource do not rely on it. Human reaction and behavior is better served by politeness therefore it is an indirect way to reinforce the desired result.

Therefore to completely deny participation in a part of the discussion yet claim you are doing that is hypocrisy.

If you cannot judge an argument for its merrit you are not really participating just pushing people around like a virtue bully.

Btw i never said only one side can be insulting. never. And also i never insisted this is proper for discource (the aggressive raging tone).
And what you do with me is also unimportant. The crux of the matter is

You felt hurt, therefore you accused me of a few things, some of which are completely false and in the end you disregard argument simply because you dont like how i reacted to someone else who was EXTREMELY rude and abusive.

So sure you are a bit disingenuous and a hypoctire like the next jock around here. keep ignoring arguments and you will make a fine horrible person.

[Popokolara]

I'd suggest you take your own advice and stop ignoring arguments. It's really fascinating that the last conversation I had with you, you accused me of saying 1+1=3, then when I asked you to clarify where I said this, you said:



Which is a completely contextless and vague argument that I can't make heads or tails of, and has nothing in it at all specific to anything I said. So I asked you to clarify and you didn't respond. Now today, you are complaining that this guy is ignoring arguments. No one here is ignoring arguments more than you, you just retreat into insults or word salad like the quote above. That's what he's calling out. When you don't like an argument, you don't respond to it either.

Here's another one:



What in god's holy hell does this even mean? How am I supposed to respond to this. I have literally no idea what I said that you're talking about. Your responses derail the conversation and become full of accusations without facts. It's quite frustrating. I know you'll probably say I'm dumb and don't understand or something, but that's not it my dude. Your posts don't make any sense.

I read this and I think, "He must have had trouble refuting my previous point because he's going with the word salad again."

Because i expected you to take his post and analyze it rather than me take the third person post quote inside a quote and do double explenation.

Btw even if i am guilty of this it doesnt dissprove my criticism.

This is the joke. You can flame me for being a hypocrite or something but until he takes my arguments and dissproves them it doesnt matter.

Thats the diff between me and you. I always call for others to take my own arguments on ML vs PL and quote them and criticise them. You accused me of tell but not do and stop there

Do i really need to go quote you while quoting a third person? Do you understand how convoluted it is conpared to you yourself taking another look at the way you described his arguments?

[neik]

Masterloot should return

Personal loot might be the best thing that has ever happened in this game.

No more kissing ass for the tyrants.
No more players getting bullied directly or indirectly.
No more newcomers getting fucked and demotivated.

Players can finally focus on raiding rather than worrying about any injustice that might occur during "unfair" loot distribution sessions. Feel free to disagree, but it won't change my personal opinion on it.

[Popokolara]

You want people to take your own arguments because you have trouble seeing other perspectives. When I present my perspective, you see it as "1+1=3" or I think earlier you said "0=1". It's really just that you have trouble realizing that your position is not objective so when someone says something that disagrees with you, you treat it as if they said something impossible - because you can't understand how people might have different opinions than you because you're so convinced you're right. I've been there before myself... when I first came on this forum I couldn't understand how people like world quests, and I came here expecting everyone to say they did, and was shocked to discover that I was seriously mistaken. It was hard to change my world view when I was so convinced of one perspective.

And yes, instead of making what I view as baseless assertions, back them up with evidence. I did that in my post above. I did exactly what you asked, I referenced 3 of your posts and said "THIS IS WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT". It's not hard.

sometimes prespective exists and sometimes it does not. i never said otherwise.
you mentioned three late posts of a very tired person discussing an old thread. yes they are not properly setup for a clash because they are me being tired.
lets make a deal. i will go over your dissagreement with the other gentleman. if i find a case of you misrepresenting him you will apologise to me. deal?

[Popokolara]

Original text you quoted:

You have a really nice way of twisting what has been said.

I never said ban PL. I never said make ML the only option. BOTH CAN CO-EXIST.

Yet, what happens when both co-exist? Everyone goes ML, cause it is objectively a better system of handing out loot in a meritocracy based system. Something that you, apparently, cannot understand. Did you ever try going for anything harder than normal 25man? Where those extra stats actually matter? Cause if you haven't, then you're right, you don't need ML. So don't use it. Let those of us who want/need ML to have it. How you can be so entitled is beyond me.

Ah, you’re like the 5th person on this thread to resort to the “cannot understand” narrative. Let’s review: in my previous post I said “master loot is better for you”. Try to get out of the mindset that everyone who’s not hardcore is not intelligent. It’s really quite silly. The real issue is you guys struggling to understand that the concerns of casual players are also relevant, even if it might go against what hardcore players want.

The other argument is one I’ve answered several times: they won’t co exist. If master loot comes back, nearly every guild leader will choose it. That doesn’t mean it’s the better option for the majority of guilds where loot distribution doesn’t really matter and just wastes time while creating drama. I prefer my guild leaders to have a little power as possible, and removing master loot does that.

point 1. no statement was made indicating Pl is associated with lower iq. this is an attempt to demonise the opposition by inventing an unethical and elitist accusation.
point 2. one can understand the concern of guilds of various levels and i will not use casual as i dont think there is a universal criteria by which we can specify it well enough. I understand and agree its a problem for a lot - probably most of the people playing the game and hence i agree with PL on non guild groups 100%. About difficulty i am not 100% sure its a bit more difficult to take a stance for reasons i will not analyze here.
point 3. Loot distribution causing drama and not really mattering is only valid if like you said you consider the loss in raid progression as insignifiant or ignorable to which i say how can you declare? Isnt this something each team should decide on their own? See i will not say THIS is the value this parameter should have. I say let people select and make their own heavens and hells. be responsible for your choices.

These 3 statements you made you CANNOT insist that they are objective universal truths. Yet you treat them as such. You use the expressions:
- Try to get out of the mindset that everyone who’s not hardcore is not intelligent statement was not about iq but about effort and experience. Infact he agreed with your point outside of higher difficulties.
- you guys struggling to understand that the concerns of casual players are also relevant He conceded you are right on at least some of the difficulties. he believes PL IS BETTER for the people not doing hc/mythic. Why would be if he did not understand your concerns?
- for the majority of guilds where loot distribution doesn’t really matter and just wastes time while creating drama Who are you to judge what most guilds want and what they do not? How can you make an absolute statement: most guilds are like this [insert archetype]


there it is. gross misrepresentation. took me 5 min?

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What do I have to apologize for? Lol... you're trying to act like I need to agree to a set of ground rules in order for you to actually back up a claim I view as utterly baseless. This is ridiculous.

no.
see again gross missinterpretation.i ask you to apologise as a tradeoff for me putting in the effort of doing this because i find it is a waste of my time. Did i demand it? no. Did i say you NEEd to do it? no. STOP putting words in my mouth.
i actually went ahead with the post before in saw what you answer.

You are constantly saying things that are not FACTUAL.

[Popokolara]

This is really very interesting. About 1/3 of your post is about me venting the 5th time someone told me I “cannot understand” something and translating that statement into frustration that people seem to think I’m dumb. That’s “gross misrepresentation”????

And yes, he conceded that personal loot is better for me, but also stated that if master loot is chosen, everyone will pick master loot. That’s the crux of this entire, 31 page argument. If master loot is an option, personal loot dies. That’s why I’m frustrated with his response, we’re going in circles.

To the third point - I think most elitist raiders would state that loot distribution doesn’t really matter for the majority of guilds. The majority of guilds are raiding heroic and normal. What matters for them is time spent learning bosses because they almost always have plenty of gear. That said, yes, you can disagree with that point, it’s an opinion. Not every opinion has to come with some sort of “o” tag around it to indicate that. It’s a giant leap from “you said something I disagree with” to “gross misrepresentation”. You see how it’s better to actually just say “I disagree with that” and explain why or ask me to explain why I said it, than to just retreat into “you said 1+1=3”? One of them progresses the argument, the other is incomprehensible.

To your final point, you claimed something about me without any backup, and now somehow you seem to think I owe you something for asking you to explain yourself. Come on man.

i didnt act like u owe me anything. i asked u if u have the responsibility to apologise for mislabelling me. you keep changing things to anything but the bare precision of it.
i said you dont admit your failings. And that you grossly misrepresent arguments. I showed you where. i made 3 seperate points. there is no debate and yet u just make shit excuses.

YOU LITERALLY accused him of claiming lower tier raiders have less iq.
how can u not feel like "ok i fucked up there." you are rotten. dont fucking bother me again.

[Dalinos]

Personal loot might be the best thing that has ever happened in this game.

No more kissing ass for the tyrants.
No more players getting bullied directly or indirectly.
No more newcomers getting fucked and demotivated.

Players can finally focus on raiding rather than worrying about any injustice that might occur during "unfair" loot distribution sessions. Feel free to disagree, but it won't change my personal opinion on it.

I pity you, and all players like you, who have never spent more than a couple of months in the same guild, and can't understand ML is the ONLY way to run a loot distribution system based on meritocracy.

I honestly feel sorry for you, for never having been in a situation where YOU were happy for SOMEONE ELSE getting loot. Cause it's a damn good feeling man, it really is. Or when OTHERS get happy YOU got loot. Also a really nice feeling. Cause remember, without them, you wouldn't have jack shit. Without you, they wouldn't have jack shit.

Then again, I see you have a 10year MMO-C tag, same as me. Which means you've been here for a while. Which means, that in all these 10 years + you've been playing WoW, you've never been in a guild that was based on integrity, group effort, recognition of said effort and like-minded people coming together. Otherwise you wouldn't only have bad experiences with ML. That's sad dude. It really is sad.

You call them "Tyrants" - I see a Guild-Master and Officer team that use THEIR time, THEIR effort, to make the raids YOU attend as successful and seamless and enjoyable as possible.

You call "players getting BULLIED" - I see GOOD players trying to teach their guildies to be BETTER, more successful players/raiders. If gameplay advice from someone who is objectively better than you comes out as bullying, that's your problem, not anyone else's.

You call "newcomers getting fucked" - I see new RECRUITS, that need to PROVE THEIR WORTH, both socially AND gameplay-wise, in order to be treated the same way as your year-long members that have been with you through thick and thin.

Maybe at some point in your life you will manage to join a mature guild, that puts progress first and keeping lootwhores happy second. I sincerely hope you do.

[kaminaris]

I pity you, and all players like you, who have never spent more than a couple of months in the same guild, and can't understand ML is the ONLY way to run a loot distribution system based on meritocracy.

I honestly feel sorry for you, for never having been in a situation where YOU were happy for SOMEONE ELSE getting loot. Cause it's a damn good feeling man, it really is. Or when OTHERS get happy YOU got loot. Also a really nice feeling. Cause remember, without them, you wouldn't have jack shit. Without you, they wouldn't have jack shit.

Nah dude, your idealistic approach doesn't apply to everyone. You didn't seem to experience loot dramas such as mine in guild I've been like 2 years in.
You are basically promoting communism.

Not everyone is perfect and just, probability that out of 25 people you won't have couple greedy/karen guys is really low.

[MidnyteTV]

I pity you, and all players like you, who have never spent more than a couple of months in the same guild, and can't understand ML is the ONLY way to run a loot distribution system based on meritocracy.

I honestly feel sorry for you, for never having been in a situation where YOU were happy for SOMEONE ELSE getting loot. Cause it's a damn good feeling man, it really is. Or when OTHERS get happy YOU got loot. Also a really nice feeling. Cause remember, without them, you wouldn't have jack shit. Without you, they wouldn't have jack shit.

Then again, I see you have a 10year MMO-C tag, same as me. Which means you've been here for a while. Which means, that in all these 10 years + you've been playing WoW, you've never been in a guild that was based on integrity, group effort, recognition of said effort and like-minded people coming together. Otherwise you wouldn't only have bad experiences with ML. That's sad dude. It really is sad.

You call them "Tyrants" - I see a Guild-Master and Officer team that use THEIR time, THEIR effort, to make the raids YOU attend as successful and seamless and enjoyable as possible.

You call "players getting BULLIED" - I see GOOD players trying to teach their guildies to be BETTER, more successful players/raiders. If gameplay advice from someone who is objectively better than you comes out as bullying, that's your problem, not anyone else's.

You call "newcomers getting fucked" - I see new RECRUITS, that need to PROVE THEIR WORTH, both socially AND gameplay-wise, in order to be treated the same way as your year-long members that have been with you through thick and thin.

Maybe at some point in your life you will manage to join a mature guild, that puts progress first and keeping lootwhores happy second. I sincerely hope you do.

Checkmate. 10/10 well said.

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If there's one absolute truth in this thread is that there are a lot of entitled parasites who never had the guts or skill to run a guild.

[Dalinos]

Nah dude, your idealistic approach doesn't apply to everyone. You didn't seem to experience loot dramas such as mine in guild I've been like 2 years in.
You are basically promoting communism.

Not everyone is perfect and just, probability that out of 25 people you won't have couple greedy/karen guys is really low.

Only on MMO-C will someone call a Meritocracy based system, communism. It is the OPPOSITE of communism my dude. It's using gear as a TOOL so that the whole GUILD can raid BETTER, based on personal performance. That's as far as Communism as it gets man.

I've seen loot drama. Hell, I've even CAUSED loot drama when the guild's founding principles were forgotten.

"Loot goes to whoever it benefits the raid, the most".

That's always been the loot paradigm in every guild I've been in. The OP melee trinket WILL go to your 2.6k rated Arms Warrior cause he knows the game better than 90% of the guild and can pump DPS numbers you wouldn't even dream of. Vala'nyr, the crazy healing legendary mace from Ulduar WILL go to the Priest Officer, who's been playing Priest for 6 years and counting, because he's the one who uses HIS OWN out-of-game time to come up with the best healing strategies that fit his roster of healers best, so that bosses can go down. The crazy tanking shield WILL go to your Maintank, not the new recruit who joined 2 weeks ago, cause your Maintank has 100% raid attendance and has been farming for that shield for 3 months.

That has always been the loot distribution paradigm in every guild I've ever been in. From the top-500 EU guild I spent 4 years in, to my LITERAL Dad Casual Classic guild that I'm in right now.

You know what the best part is? When someone asks WHY player X or Y got a specific item.

You know what the responses are? "Player X has missed 1 raid the last 6 months. He's never late, always brings full consumes, never fails when extra responsibilities are required of him (add handling, interrupts, w/e). The last item he got was Y amount of raids ago. Numbers wise, it is the biggest upgrade for him."

Transparency man. Transparency is key. Knowing WHY someone got a piece of loot is extremely important, because it shows you the MANY criteria and variables used in assigning loot. My casual dad guild has an excel sheet that gets updated weekly, with every single item that has dropped, from the day we started raiding in October 2019. This excel sheet is public information on our discord. ANY member can pull it up and see who got what loot when.

You know what happens to greedy Karens, as you call them? They leave. They just fucking /gquit man. They see that their 2-week trial period means lowest priority on loot and they don't stick around. And you know what? Good fucking riddance. I, and my guildies, don't WANT people who are like that. We don't WANT to raid with people who are lootwhores, who put loot as the number 1 priority. And they just leave, on their own, no harm done. And that's fine.

Do you see how in all of these scenarios, Personal Loot would be a downside? Would be a lesser solution?

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Checkmate. 10/10 well said.

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If there's one absolute truth in this thread is that there are a lot of entitled parasites who never had the guts or skill to run a guild.

It's not only about having the guts or skill to run a guild man...it's also about being a fucking decent human being. That's what I LOVE about raiding in WoW Classic. If you are an asshat, if you are a troll, if you are a fucking retard, you won't get anywhere. People do NOT want to pass their chill-time (which is what raiding is, it's having a good time with your mates) with people who are unfun to play with. Being a Raider is a title, which is earned, not given. It encompasses a myriad of characteristics that one must have to be qualified as a Raider.

You gotta be a team-player. You gotta be calm. You gotta be dedicated. You gotta be respectful, both of other people's time, and your own time, that you pour into the game. You gotta have a level of understanding, and empathy. You WANT your fellow raiders to be happy, and motivated, because happy and motivated raiders produce the best results. And the ONLY FUCKING WAY to keep a BATTALION (cause that's what we are, quite literally, a fucking battalion in terms of size) of 40 raiders happy is to have a fair, transparent, meritocracy-based loot system that puts the progress of the guild first and foremost.

Having no Master Looter doesn't allow us to do this shit.

[Dalinos]

Keep your pity, lol. For most of us it's just a casual hobby man. I choose to not be hardcore, it's not for me. How you describe your guild working is how maybe 1% of guilds work. My guild right now is constantly cycling through players, I play for a few months and leave all the time as my schedule fits or doesn't fit with raiding. Our GM's a healer with all gray parses on heroic. There are at least 6 officers and only about 14 people in the raid. Virtually every single person has been a more serious raider at some point, EXCEPT the GM and one of the other healers who is also an officer.

If they turned master loot on, the 3-4 people who spend a lot of time running the guild would probably want to do master loot. And it would be the wrong decision. It already takes our GM 20 minutes to put the raid together at the start of the night, I don't want to spend another 10 every time a boss dies with them giving out loot. Hell, the best players get most of their loot from M+ anyway so it really doesn't matter. Just let us roll.

Also, to your comment:



Do you think that personal loot = no loot? Because my guild still gets loot, and everyone is happy for each other when it happens.

To all the rest of it, dude I'm too old to worry about proving my worth. I've played this game for a long time, I'm not expecting a GM to teach me anything, and I'm just not interested in trying to make sure that my status is good enough that I get loot. And I can't speak for everyone, but pretty much everyone I know feels the same way by now. If I'm in a guild and I have to take 3 months off because my job gets busy, I don't want to come back and have them be like "well you have to earn loot by getting dkp for three weeks" or whatever. I want what I got in my guild "Hey! Welcome back! Do you want to come to the raid next week?" with absolutely nothing about "ok you need to earn back your spot you're a noob again".

If there was a way to give you ML because it would be beneficial for you, without causing a significant degradation of my gaming experience, I'd be fine with it. But personal loot is just so good for me. It really is. So I, and I believe a lot of people like me, are overjoyed that it's gone.

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You didn't understand what he meant. He was using communism as an example of a system that works well in ideal circumstances, but often fails in practice because reality is less than ideal. He's arguing that master loot is similar - in theory, it's great. Tons of us in this thread have explained why we're concerned about it in practice.

Then keep on using Personal Loot then. Not once have I advocated for the REMOVAL of Personal Loot. I've only advocated for the RETURN of Master Looter. Like I said before, both can co-exist. You use your loot system, since your guild is prone to abuse and corruption, and let my casual 2-raids-a-week Dad guild use Master Looter. Where's the issue?

If people in your guild respected each other's time, the GM wouldn't waste 20 mins making the raid. He'd use something along the lines of "First pull of the raid is at 20:00 gametime, be online by 19:30 gametime, invites start at 19:45", as the Guild Message of the Day. There, easy solution to a non-existent problem.

If your casual guild wanted to switch to ML, when PL has been serving you well, just be fucking vocal about it man. You can say something along the lines of "Hey, ML wastes too much raid time, let's stick to PL, much faster/efficient". If there's a negative reaction from leadership, then call a guild vote, much like we did to see which of our casters would get Atiesh from Naxxramas. Oh my, another solution to a non-existent problem.

Take all the time and effort you've used this past week on MMO-C, trying to demonize Master Looter, and channel it to something more productive man. I just solved 2 of your main issues (power abuse, time wasting in raids) in less than 30 seconds, in 1 post. You can do the same. Go do that instead.

All the problems you claim ML brings can be avoided by simply not using it. Let us who KNOW how to use ML properly, use it. That is all.

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Keep your pity, lol. For most of us it's just a casual hobby man. I choose to not be hardcore, it's not for me. How you describe your guild working is how maybe 1% of guilds work. My guild right now is constantly cycling through players, I play for a few months and leave all the time as my schedule fits or doesn't fit with raiding. Our GM's a healer with all gray parses on heroic. There are at least 6 officers and only about 14 people in the raid. Virtually every single person has been a more serious raider at some point, EXCEPT the GM and one of the other healers who is also an officer.

If they turned master loot on, the 3-4 people who spend a lot of time running the guild would probably want to do master loot. And it would be the wrong decision. It already takes our GM 20 minutes to put the raid together at the start of the night, I don't want to spend another 10 every time a boss dies with them giving out loot. Hell, the best players get most of their loot from M+ anyway so it really doesn't matter. Just let us roll.

Also, to your comment:



Do you think that personal loot = no loot? Because my guild still gets loot, and everyone is happy for each other when it happens.

To all the rest of it, dude I'm too old to worry about proving my worth. I've played this game for a long time, I'm not expecting a GM to teach me anything, and I'm just not interested in trying to make sure that my status is good enough that I get loot. And I can't speak for everyone, but pretty much everyone I know feels the same way by now. If I'm in a guild and I have to take 3 months off because my job gets busy, I don't want to come back and have them be like "well you have to earn loot by getting dkp for three weeks" or whatever. I want what I got in my guild "Hey! Welcome back! Do you want to come to the raid next week?" with absolutely nothing about "ok you need to earn back your spot you're a noob again".

If there was a way to give you ML because it would be beneficial for you, without causing a significant degradation of my gaming experience, I'd be fine with it. But personal loot is just so good for me. It really is. So I, and I believe a lot of people like me, are overjoyed that it's gone.

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You didn't understand what he meant. He was using communism as an example of a system that works well in ideal circumstances, but often fails in practice because reality is less than ideal. He's arguing that master loot is similar - in theory, it's great. Tons of us in this thread have explained why we're concerned about it in practice.

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Here's a quote from a guy on Preach's stream I was watching today. He was describing Vanilla's loot paradigm, which also outlines the reason why they consistently moved away from it:

"Back in Vanilla days, there was like feeder guilds. The way you went up was getting gear in one guild then fucking over that guild, leaving with that gear to go to a guild that was actually much higher progressed, and that's just how it worked."

Again: idealistic theory... everyone pledges loyalty to the guild, one for all, all for one, cheer for the people who got 6 pieces of loot when you get none because they are better than you.

In practice: Fuck you guys, I got my loot, time to move up the ladder! Byeee...

"A guy from Preach's stream", what a relevant source of information. On my server in OG vanilla, guild-hoppers were blacklisted. The moment you switched guilds twice, that was a red flag. There was even a site we used (before the Armory was created) which showed you which guilds that player had been in during his lifetime. People that guild-hopped alot were not accepted in raiding guilds on my server. Sounds like a server issue. Also, no Loot Council would funnel SIX pieces of gear to the same person while others from the same class got 0. Case in point, Priest T2. We made sure EVERY priest got 3/8 T2 ASAP, cause that set bonus is brokenly OP (+15% mana regeneration while casting). It rarely benefits the raid to give so much loot to ONE person. A few strong items, yes, a full set of gear, no. Hence why I say, transparency is key.

[Dalinos]

Nope. Because it's like a virus. Lots of people will think they need to use it but they don't. It's the same reason you see tanks pulling triple packs on a +6 Sanguine Depths and wiping ridiculously because Dratnos told them that's the way to do it. It will be impossible to avoid.

In practice, there are really only two choices. If master loot is on, everyone will use it. I think for most people it will be the wrong decision. That's exactly why it's not allowed. There are tons of rules in society that work like this. I swam in college. For me to dive in when the pool is only 4 feet deep is no risk. I've done it literally thousands of times. It's actually easier than jumping in, and saves me from tweaking my bad knee.

But for the vast majority of swimmers, it's dangerous. No one is going to look at me and say, "Oh you're advanced enough to do this appropriately", I have to jump in. It's annoying, but it's also practical.

Then I'm sorry, but your college was wrong. Since you said "college", I'll assume you're American.

I'm Greek. We learn to swim by the age of half a year old. It is said that the Mediterranean runs through our veins, since Greeks have been sailors for over 4,000 years.

Noone in their right mind would not allow people to dive into a pool, here in Greece, because as you yourself said, it is common knowledge that diving in is much more efficient and causes much less injuries than jumping in. Greek pools have the sign that says "No running", they don't have the sign that says "No diving". Bad example there mate, try another. I'm still not convinced.

[Dalinos]

Way to take an analogy way too literally, lol.

Not my fault you live in a country where the Norm is to NOT dive in a pool. THAT, is ridiculous, I'm sorry - just as ridiculous as a casual guild using Master Looter cause that's what the World First guilds do.

[Dalinos]

Ok, I give up. This is pointless.

Just as pointless as you trying, in futility mind you, to prove that the removal of ML is a GOOD thing. Removal of choice is ALWAYS a bad thing. Especially when it doesn't affect you how my guild runs our loot in any way, shape or form. And I already told you. If ML was reintroduced and your guild wanted to use it, BE VOCAL ABOUT IT. TELL THEM you don't wanna use it, OUTLINE the problems like you've been doing on MMO-C (instead of your own fucking guild-chat), and convince them PL is better.

Do we remove cars, cause there are drunk drivers?

Do we remove screwdrivers, cause some crazy dude can stab you with one?

Do we remove Cannabis, cause some people are stoners, when it provides clear medical benefits to cancer patients?

You didn't refute my assumption of you being American, so I'ma keep assuming you are American, so here's an example that'll hit close to home for you.

Do we remove guns, cause some people murder others?

I mean, it's obvious who plays the game more and who chills on MMO-C more. You've got a 5-year tag with 9,500 posts. I've got a 10-year tag with 630 posts. You spend more time on MMOC arguing/discussing the game than you do PLAYING the game. Jesus.

[Popokolara]

Just as pointless as you trying, in futility mind you, to prove that the removal of ML is a GOOD thing. Removal of choice is ALWAYS a bad thing. Especially when it doesn't affect you how my guild runs our loot in any way, shape or form. And I already told you. If ML was reintroduced and your guild wanted to use it, BE VOCAL ABOUT IT. TELL THEM you don't wanna use it, OUTLINE the problems like you've been doing on MMO-C (instead of your own fucking guild-chat), and convince them PL is better.

Do we remove cars, cause there are drunk drivers?

Do we remove screwdrivers, cause some crazy dude can stab you with one?

Do we remove Cannabis, cause some people are stoners, when it provides clear medical benefits to cancer patients?

You didn't refute my assumption of you being American, so I'ma keep assuming you are American, so here's an example that'll hit close to home for you.

Do we remove guns, cause some people murder others?

I mean, it's obvious who plays the game more and who chills on MMO-C more. You've got a 5-year tag with 9,500 posts. I've got a 10-year tag with 630 posts. You spend more time on MMOC arguing/discussing the game than you do PLAYING the game. Jesus.

I feel i need to recognise the issue here being that a lot of the more mediocre raiders will try to use master loot and the learning process is something some people dislike. It boils down to having a pool and professional swimmers want to have the choice of the high and low platform to jump, but most are casual friends, and some want to use the boards, while others want to chill in tiered steps.

The problem happens when i am a casual and people in my grp insist on the jumping board. i dont like it but i also got my friends. i need to either find a new grp or start using the board to be with them.

Some of us advocate to let people face this and if they dont like the board find new groups, as to remove the choice of the board is negative.
Others think that since the board is more of a meme for the casuals and they cant use it properly anyway why not block it to avoid the unpleasantness and inconvinience.

I can understand why someone who wants to play very casually wants to avoid a lot of things. If able a lot of them would avoid the social contact as well. just go blind mute and randomly hop in groups and play because they want to relax and not have to make a lot of effort socially or skillwise. I do not criticise that at all its a gameplay choice.

I think people deep down know that this carefree more relaxed system doesnt work well and want a blanket protection to not have to put more effort than desired. And there we (organised raiders) dissagree with them(chill raiders).

I think ML as a choice for myth only guilds would be a generous compromise on behalf of organised raiders. Ideally heroic ML choice as well. Because if you want to do hc without a bit more organisation ehhhhh you can do it sure eventually. But i think its demanding enough to justify ML as a choice.